Blackshares, can it be done? Is it in our mutual benefit? Brainstorm here

[fuzzy]

And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@Dan, I think you need to understand that this entire thread is based off of the knowledge that DPOS and its future iterations are going to be a GIFT to the entirety of POS coins.  If it works like it seems like it could, we are looking at a frigging game-changer.  I do not have all the answers, and just because I pose my own often-misled theories they are only there for people to think over.  Hell, 1 out of approximately every 1000 actually get used! 

If anything, you should consider this thread a testament to how absolutely powerful we think this innovation will be...that we actually think POS altcoins will jump at the chance to compete for its implementation on altchains should tell you that your hard work and perpetual problem solving means something.  Do I know how it will ultimately manifest?  Hell no, but I do know that there are as many distros of linux as you can shake a stick at...its just the nature of the beast.  And I know that the "threats" to investors are pretty difficult to predict.  Even well thought out solutions seem like shots in the dark to a certain extent.  I for one like contemplating it, though I'm sure you want to bang your head against the wall at times

Oh, and btw, I have never once redacted the volunteerd 10% of my stake (though I am sure I am a little guy compared to some who will likely choose to donate nothing to the cause). 

[Empirical1]

Lets get you all caught up on the facts:

I'm not sure who started talking about donating AGS/PTS to airdrop, but I have not mentioned it in any of my 33 posts.  What we are proposing in the shortest term is donating (PERSONALLY NOT COMMUNALLY) Bitshares to airdrop on several communities (blockchians) because the product that we are next worried about getting forked is Bitshares, and since it is launching soon without any fork protection against immediate free re-distribution, then we should purchase a little forking insurance. 

Bitshares is AGS & PTS.  (Bitshares AGS and Bitshares PTS) & you seemed to be talking about donating it via airdrop, it's only when that wasn't gaining traction that you switched to a charity faucet.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4146.msg52678#msg52678

My sincerest apologies for starting a thread that assumed that our Bitshares community would support the general idea behind providing a Bitshares Faucet. We obviously can't conceive the potential financial benefit of gaining the trust of the market through a public display of generosity.

I apologize to entrepreneurs who are trying to decide weather or not to honor PTS/AGS shareholders with your intellectual property. My chief regret is not that I was unable ...

Therefore we are creating the:

Bitshares Forced Faucet (Airdrop) donation fund thread

Unless in all your previous posts and now you are specifically referring to Bitshares X (The Bank & Exchange DAC) & not Bitshares in general?

Edit: I'm not against the charity faucet for Bitshares X. I think people can do what they like with their shares.

x = 8.3% is the worst percentage crash that Bitshares can lose while giving away 5% of your Bitshares to an airdrop like Auroracoin...

It is basically free money at this point.  If I vote against the airdrop because I know that the price is going to go down relative to the USD, then did I vote against receiving free money?

By voting against the airdrop, you are voting to restrict adoption of Bitshares plus you are saying “no” to a free one time 8.3% trading gain.

The Bitshares community is voting against allowing people to donate to a fund that will cause the value of their investment to gain 8.3% (BitUSD) upon launch (guaranteed by Auroracoin math) (based upon the number that everybody loves to tout (the 83% Auroracoin decline)).

If you do not agree that this BitUSD bet would pay off, then you support the theory that the airdrop worked, and that the Bitshares market cap would actually grow because of the airdrop.

How would you feel if you came into work one day and everybody told you:

“Hey, Empirical, we all voted “NO” on an 8.3% one-time pay bonus.

What's the matter, scared you might make 8%?

Remember Le Chiffre in Casino Royale trying to blow up the plane while shorting the airline stock? (At least that was another companies plane, personally I don't think we should try blow up our own plane for a small trading gain...)

I agree with your 5-10% decline based on Aurora estimate and if that was also the general consensus of the community we definitely shouldn't do it. The negative blowback from being perceived to deliberately create an event that would likely allow us as Bitshares XT shareholders to profit from shorting Bitshares XT would far outweigh any goodwill gains.

Sorry for the type-o on that last thread, the correct Riddle is:

What will you do if someone drops free "Bitshare" clones on you (not Bitcoin clones, we all know what to do if that happens).

Seriously, think about this question deeply, and gain some insight into yourself and your market.  Help me help you.

I would thank them for the free advertising.

SiliconValleyCoin achieved a high of $20 million and is now $1650 (99.9%+ Shareholder loss)
AuroraCoin achieved a high of $800 million and is now $1 million... (99%+ Shareholder loss)
SpainCoin achieved a high of $80 million and is now $20 000...  (99.9% Shareholder loss)
MazaCoin achieved a high of $6 million and is now $200 000...  (96% Shareholder loss)

Letting people try/sample the product for free with reduced fees for a period or with demo version where they're not risking their money is good advertising. Giving potential customers shares in an underlying company, not so much 

I am concerned about competitors in this space who have some talent, marketing & a focused community as a result I have small positions in NXT, Mastercoin, CounterParty and may even get a small hedge in Ether but they are dwarfed by my position in Bitshares.

But no I'm not concerned about someone doing a major drop with a clone onto the Bitcoin Blockchain for example. But that's just my own opinion.

 

[fuzzy]

There is another..,.

And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL...

[bytemaster]

And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fuzzy]

DA... never stop

 

  There is so much high-octane thinking in there, some of it simply has to be right!   

No place I'd rather be...

[Stan]

DA... never stop

 

  There is so much high-octane thinking in there, some of it simply has to be right!    

[fuzzy]

DA... never stop

 

[fuzzy]

Sorry for the type-o on that last thread, the correct Riddle is:

What will you do if someone drops free "Bitshare" clones on you (not Bitcoin clones, we all know what to do if that happens).

Seriously, think about this question deeply, and gain some insight into yourself and your market.  Help me help you.

Why would you need to donate Bitshares when you can just create unique altchains which are split 50/50? I'm not willing to donate any Bitshares I don't see see why anyone else should.

The Blackshares chain could have different assets to the Bitshares XT chain for example giving us the incentive to use both. These chains could also test new features. It's not like we only will have one Bitshares chain.

I honestly do not mind donating to the other option (though I am near certain I am in a very small minority)--and it is understandable why this fact is so frustrating (because it is obvious it would only increase the value of bitShares over time).  These are both good ways to do it, but I also have no clue how we can protect from other coins' devs and communities simply taking the source code once it has been tested--all bugs fixed--and cloning it with slight alterations (even improvements).  Not completely convinced that even strategic airdrops to keyhotee/blackcoin/bitcoin/mastercoin/ether will protect us from that. 

Bytemaster is a genius...this is a certainty.  But this does not mean he is a god and that another dev team might not find a way to improve upon the bitShares code and release it wholly as their own (to the detriment of our community) either.  Or better yet, they could launch an altchain and give all bitShares to Bitcoin holders.  If this happens, we need to have a far greater adoption of bitShares than these other chains can hope to get.  This is a big if...especially considering severely lacking support from the crypto-community outside our little watering hole here. 

Trust me when I say I am here for the betterment of the community at large too...and I think my efforts are proving it (Thank god I have a wife who understands my motivations and has patience with my ridiculous altruistic nature--or I'd be divorced for my constant juggling of items between here and my real life). 

With that said, the simple fact that people are bringing this up means that these ideas are wanting to be tested.  This, to me, means we are already at a point where fracturing can (and likely will) occur at some point in the future.  I know for certain that NoirShares is being worked on because of rifts that grew (which is ok).  For the life of me, I have a hard time understanding how we can seem to get upset when ideas are flourishing.  This is not a bad thing!  Decentralization wants to be decentralized! 

Can someone explain why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them?  I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities.  I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?

How can creating sidechains that honor other altcoins hurt the community if those communities want to honor bitShares holders in return for support by our community and (genius) devs?  We forget how valuable BM's brain will be considered to other cryptocommunities once they start getting an equal stake in a chain that Bytemaster's code enhanced in ways they never could have conceived.  In this way, instead of stealing his brilliant ideas they are more likely to become part of a broader community that enhance eachothers' ability to innovate, which can then be adopted by all other forks, and even later improved upon by Dan and his team..

I do not pretend to have all the answers, and PLEASE TELL ME where my reasoning is faulty.  I truly believe we can figure these things out...but we need to really WEIGH the positives and negatives of the options we see as opposed to saying "just shoot me now" (which was wonderful comic relief, btw).

P.S.  Lets try to compile a list of downsides and upsides for the Air Drop to Keyhotee/Bitcoin/Blackcoin/Mastercoin/Ether compared to forging new DACs that enhance POS coins.  Lets make this productive...and most of all, lets remember this has been one of the coolest experiments in the history of equities and we are lucky enough to all be in the position to even worry about these things.  I know that, personally, I feel blessed to have been a part of this up to this point...even if I don't always agree with the friends I have made here. 


*final note*--screw the Nay-Sayers...and lets not focus on the negative FUD they try to spread, it is precisely the variations of ideas that will strengthen our ecosystem over time against the threats we may someday face (perfect example here:  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4284.msg53910#msg53910). Most of these people do not even have a clue what the hell POS is let along DPOS.  Their unwillingness to research is their fault, not ours.

[toast]

DA... never stop

[luckybit]

Sorry for the type-o on that last thread, the correct Riddle is:

What will you do if someone drops free "Bitshare" clones on you (not Bitcoin clones, we all know what to do if that happens).

Seriously, think about this question deeply, and gain some insight into yourself and your market.  Help me help you.

Why would you need to donate Bitshares when you can just create unique altchains which are split 50/50? I'm not willing to donate any Bitshares I don't see see why anyone else should.

The Blackshares chain could have different assets to the Bitshares XT chain for example giving us the incentive to use both. These chains could also test new features. It's not like we only will have one Bitshares chain.

[luckybit]

Why would we spend time on this before bitshares XT is even released?  It makes no sense to me.  I think there may be some risk in going around to a bunch of altcoin clone communities giving them the idea to clone our code too before we've even done our release.

No offense intended but the code is not ours.

The code belongs to the world. What we are is a community and it's up to us to work to promote the best use of the code in a way which is mutually beneficial between our community and other communities. One way to market Bitshares is to create community specific chains which honor our community and theirs 50/50. Code can be replicated very easily but the members of this community cannot be replicated so the value is actually in that. Bytemaster will still be developing for our community and his chains will be 100% honored to Bitshares XT holders, and some of the best innovators, thinkers, and overall grand vision will still come from this community.

We should promote the proper use of the code and help bootstrap communities with similar values as our own. Thinking you can somehow keep the code closed, or patent it, or protect it, is counter productive and the wrong way of thinking. Bitshares is going to be forked just like every other similar valuable technology is forked so it's about the communities behind the technology in the end and the relationships. The community brings value to an asset and that is what you have to always remember that this is about.

Altcoin communities such as Blackcoin are part of the true Proof of Stake community which is a subset of the greater Proof of Stake community which includes hybrids like Peercoin. All cryptocurrencies are part of the greater decentralization community.

So if you want Bitshares to have any value ever then you have to figure out how to give the technology away in a way which benefits holders from Bitshares XT community (since we are all from this initial community snapshot). I've offered methods of doing this which would provide a net benefit to the Bitshares community in the form of a completely new Bitshares chain with new commodities to play with split evenly by providing a 50/50% ownership split in Blackshares with the Blackcoin community.

If you'd rather try to fight with yourself then the community which is willing to cooperate with other communities will peel off members from this community onto theirs. I would rather holders of Bitshares XT benefit from the growth and activity of the Blackcoin community. I would rather the Bitshares community form the alliances rather than see Mastercoin, Ethereum and other communities doing it while we keep talking like our precious source code is all that will be necessary to grow an industry.

If Bitshares is a DAC and we are all employees with the job of promoting Bitshares and giving it value then how are you going to do that? One way to do that is to increase the size and expertise of the marketing team overnight by merging with the Blackcoin community.

If the Blackcoin community really is good at pumping then all that pump would go into Blackshares which we'd own 50% of. And since we would own 100% of Bitshares the Blackcoin community might want to interact with that as well if the commodities are different in each chain.

[Agent86]

Why would we spend time on this before bitshares XT is even released?  It makes no sense to me.  I think there may be some risk in going around to a bunch of altcoin clone communities giving them the idea to clone our code too before we've even done our release.

[fuzzy]

Can we set up a time to all discuss this in a hangout/mumble type format?  We could tape this and then send it out to Blackcoin's community (and any others) with an invitation to stop by for another scheduled meetup. 

I don't yet have time to completely read over your posts (I skimmed over them) because I am still working on a pretty big school project, but couldn't we offer an invitation to all POS-based coins? I know for certain the peercoin community is working hard to try to make peershares, which shows they already want a system similar to this.  I am also pretty sure that if we opened this up to other POS-based coins after the initial Blackcoin run that we would gain even more competition--which is precisely what we want.

I brought the community manager from the Blackcoin community to the Bitshares community. If you can get him to meet and discuss the details would be great. Also the developers behind Blackcoin should be part of the discussion as well. I think the volume and marketing success of Blackcoin are good metrics to use to choose it, the winners and losers pick themselves by being successful or not at achieving high market cap and volume for a long enough period of time (just like how exchanges select certain coins) or let them vote on it in the future and pay for a chain.

I think the focus should be on one community at a time. At this point I think we would just need Dan and representatives from the Blackcoin community to agree to go down this road.

If an agreement is reached then they can both make an announcement thread along with a "Blackshares" section of the forum in the crypto-merger or DAC merger category. From there the community manager of Blackcoin and Stan from Bitshares could prepare announcements to be spread viral with a url in each announcement to each forum.

Peercoin/Peershares chain could be great, but their problem right now is that Peercoin is hybrid PoS rather than pure PoS. It does seem their community wants it though so the demand is probably there to do it.

Damnit...I should close this window.  Lol...

I see no reason why Dan and the team should not go down this avenue.  It goes right along with his philosophy of only changing things when it will give more to the investors in this project.  And lets face facts, with the work Invictus is doing, someone is going to eventually come along and fork this anyway...with NONE of the funding/effort we put into bringing this to fruition--and they'll only honor their investors, completely cutting the community out.  At least this way we can get them to continue supporting this new ecosystem. 

As far as only Blackcoin...though I understand and appreciate your intentions, this is open source.  As such, I do not see how attempting to make this exclusive will do anything but push others to fork it without honoring the community.  Maybe I'm missing something, but in my opinion the more inclusive we are...the more good will, competition and value we bring to the entire ecosystem.  It also serves to remind all investors in both Blackcoin and bitShares to remember that it is not just us against them or us against all other altcoins, we are ALL part of the same community.  The key is finding a model that reminds them all of this fact...

This will also have the wonderful side-effect of undermining the "whales" who just push out another "new" coin with slight parameter alterations to Pump and Dump in unison to gain more stake in the BTC ecosystem.  In my opinion, these people need to be kicked in the ass by a caring community forming around tech that essentially makes their attempts at monopoly far more difficult. 

Now seriously lucky...I'm friggin out of this conversation until my work is done at A+ quality (though somehow I feel doing an active directory project is not nearly as important in the grand scheme of things as this conversation).

[luckybit]

Can we set up a time to all discuss this in a hangout/mumble type format?  We could tape this and then send it out to Blackcoin's community (and any others) with an invitation to stop by for another scheduled meetup. 

I don't yet have time to completely read over your posts (I skimmed over them) because I am still working on a pretty big school project, but couldn't we offer an invitation to all POS-based coins? I know for certain the peercoin community is working hard to try to make peershares, which shows they already want a system similar to this.  I am also pretty sure that if we opened this up to other POS-based coins after the initial Blackcoin run that we would gain even more competition--which is precisely what we want.

I brought the community manager from the Blackcoin community to the Bitshares community. If you can get him to meet and discuss the details would be great. Also the developers behind Blackcoin should be part of the discussion as well. I think the volume and marketing success of Blackcoin are good metrics to use to choose it, the winners and losers pick themselves by being successful or not at achieving high market cap and volume for a long enough period of time (just like how exchanges select certain coins) or let them vote on it in the future and pay for a chain.

I think the focus should be on one community at a time. At this point I think we would just need Dan and representatives from the Blackcoin community to agree to go down this road.

If an agreement is reached then they can both make an announcement thread along with a "Blackshares" section of the forum in the crypto-merger or DAC merger category. From there the community manager of Blackcoin and Stan from Bitshares could prepare announcements to be spread viral with a url in each announcement to each forum.

Peercoin/Peershares chain could be great, but their problem right now is that Peercoin is hybrid PoS rather than pure PoS. It does seem their community wants it though so the demand is probably there to do it.

[fuzzy]

Can we set up a time to all discuss this in a hangout/mumble type format?  We could tape this and then send it out to Blackcoin's community (and any others) with an invitation to stop by for another scheduled meetup. 

I don't yet have time to completely read over your posts (I skimmed over them) because I am still working on a pretty big school project, but couldn't we offer an invitation to all POS-based coins? I know for certain the peercoin community is working hard to try to make peershares, which shows they already want a system similar to this.  I am also pretty sure that if we opened this up to other POS-based coins after the initial Blackcoin run that we would gain even more competition--which is precisely what we want. 

Picking winners and losers (even if one of the winners is proving themselves like Blackcoin) is rarely a good idea.  Of course there should be no reason why Blackcoin couldn't get the first opportunity and be the first mover along with us, then the bitShares and blackShares communities would be able to effectively create the pinnacle template that others can replicate for and use to compete.   

This will be my last post tonight, but I'll be on mumble while working on this damned active directory stuff (not my forte) in case someone wants to grab a few minutes of time and chat about this.