Today .I made a too bad mistake

[daidai]

it's a very good news.

[liondani]

"treat others as you would like to be treated"

 

RESPECT Stan

I am really proud to belong to this community.

[xeroc]

Could the Marketing guys make up some nice article about this!? This kind of PR might introduce others to take a look into our community!?

[codinat]

Stan,真是个好消息！你的善意会收买正在失去信心的ags。

[ebit]

Exciting!
I will donate seriously in the future.
I learned the DAC  society/community's property is human nature not is robot nature.
According to this way of thinking
In the future,robot has no chance to rule human.

[Tuck Fheman]

Average donation for the previous 10 days was 1203, and the total for the 20th was 6971.  Here are the donations, and the refund amounts necessary to scale everyone's AGS ratio to the 10 day average.  The remaining decision is the appropriate penalty/reduction for ebit's refund.

Code: [Select]

Address,Donation,ScaledRefund
Pk2cJUUbXLRhfP2kw7yLbYJpYpBKeKARSW ,46.65,38.59683546
PjdcRCpvxNaR4RYqf52rQ5dmBGmGkTmQNX ,50,41.36852675
PaoJXg3x1xfPaZAVrP4Bk8NHWCJC6DdQ24 ,20,16.5474107
PpzcJXGWuN8HnKVpyeWH29eSq44LFh2Y6c ,0.25,0.20684263
PogMGCjw3sTh8j24tVAx54pUEMRyNQqZmo ,30,24.82111605
PqhqYxZVu75aN1Pa6VGvj5BGXnH9yqgaPx ,1.11111111,0.91930059
PagB51VKf4NkDxisU6EH5wtpHFvH5mQnc1 ,6120,5063.50767465
PadMoGsbU4n3vmephvG5wzumeRLn3RWayL ,30.661,25.36800798
PiywY9RJGTFY41gKku1m6gRTeJhTbHEafX ,10,8.27370535
PuF15NGfegzbxQ6PPqRMBhoZsZbW6kpo6p ,20,16.5474107
PjRCm4xf3KmpzuxYcpa9sN14iRcuPYfGtB ,2,1.65474107
PjHugwLoCrKBCXERgiuPgK7RFbTt1AiU29 ,4,3.30948214
PfFLim8RPGPkpAn8kAmQhVxn6t2FnQfGig ,107.613,89.03582539
PgbP2zDWz8vwpz9CDKi18Lj7YS5GjCeA7X ,5,4.13685268
PnrYHrsZcQxHabETusASqRdGTjyVa5WiLd ,49.4999,40.95475875
Pmyuw6iFTuAN4m8HV1dCfPTWLdjbpxPsw8 ,40,33.0948214
Ph3hw9fLcTnMZCgQBsHMXqhqhzvQxuaRpW ,0.4,0.33094821
PuaeYFCwsYCm25e6mSPA1SjSUsYpQzqZw2 ,1.77,1.46444585
PokVwdh2qSXDGwkkCMKa1wBKEwR47LF7rJ ,50,41.36852675
PnEYDvtFJqdFniBU3sQDSk1tqEzYGtA5hg ,1,0.82737054
PtwYmXAuksDYTaXHGFM9XhCY9VBtRESvz7 ,2.19,1.81194147
PrpTbeN4UKPgrHii4cJS5JHWrwQriSvEHM ,0.276,0.22835427
PjhYHRZMEKhdiKx6WWwhoDdH3WFsCTRpE6 ,3.33,2.75514388
PgY5bwLhkh9vB9vv3VUHa3qvYQ4Vr9RK4e ,4,3.30948214
PoKXVpCNkQ4qRLz5PXxH2JP9vckeBNgwDG ,10,8.27370535
PrpTbeN4UKPgrHii4cJS5JHWrwQriSvEHM ,0.5,0.41368527
PpMjQWhYf9mSWGqC3nc3jT2VNALVPVFng3 ,1,0.82737054
PqPZ5WTBEzvzogPuQ7JULLTHNTC5hhPJm8 ,10,8.27370535
PaFTVnAVGBXVm2M9JwzTWBg4grZF3Dq4EY ,20,16.5474107
PjEwaTLiaCV2Zev1gDR5RnoaP5FRt9qwf7 ,2,1.65474107
Pd5T7JkvMcdPq8kJMy83KeEtf3tGcKjraa ,20,16.5474107
Pqco7LoTLqEDq7xhbXCHNnCZ1WaShd7fi7 ,6,4.96422321
PmCtXtJZecdPyefSaU8pNBJPJMevbEKXfX ,1,0.82737054
PuPWyYWVV9b74iMxjZpF3ERvW3L417cU7b ,8,6.61896428
PZKnCeunEfmqFYHk4iFkDwmhGtvGLD39t5 ,1.3,1.0755817
PuiR9SqVFqytPrtZ9ZkZn2i5Jg15haGphP ,0.86,0.71153866
PqZxZm4BBhCNdfDEMDsGcWijzyMWi4Tzpm ,0.39,0.32267451
Phxxvxy3LAwvNUPRCZbBwuY55jZySXjXgn ,12.1212,10.02872373
PdbbYvKZGDT8Lh1fw1q6jeM1QdEA7aRTwZ ,4.71237204,3.89887778
PgjNdTXCQQV97eBd5vaCHiqUtAvFF9B4xK ,4.17027992,3.45036673
PXzib3XBtfRCvX4xjfR8me2rBk6k6CeJ7S ,50,41.36852675
Pw8yBPMupPFYSr31jbcDeuvcBiSA6L2Zha ,100,82.73705351
PuMfGuoiMe9fmrwCwuJYEMY6mQmSpe6KyS ,120,99.28446421


PUBLIC NOTICE

I have confirmed Trog's numbers to within 1 PTS and since there have been no objections for 24 hours, I will request issuing of these refunds tomorrow.

Since no one has demanded a penalty, no penalty will be requested.  The hours it will take to implement this will be written off to the "treat others as you would like to be treated" account.

Nothing about this action should be construed to imply an obligation to repeat this.
It is a one-time act of grace obtained by general consent of the BitShares community.

Thanks Stan!

[Stan]

Average donation for the previous 10 days was 1203, and the total for the 20th was 6971.  Here are the donations, and the refund amounts necessary to scale everyone's AGS ratio to the 10 day average.  The remaining decision is the appropriate penalty/reduction for ebit's refund.

Code: [Select]

Address,Donation,ScaledRefund
Pk2cJUUbXLRhfP2kw7yLbYJpYpBKeKARSW ,46.65,38.59683546
PjdcRCpvxNaR4RYqf52rQ5dmBGmGkTmQNX ,50,41.36852675
PaoJXg3x1xfPaZAVrP4Bk8NHWCJC6DdQ24 ,20,16.5474107
PpzcJXGWuN8HnKVpyeWH29eSq44LFh2Y6c ,0.25,0.20684263
PogMGCjw3sTh8j24tVAx54pUEMRyNQqZmo ,30,24.82111605
PqhqYxZVu75aN1Pa6VGvj5BGXnH9yqgaPx ,1.11111111,0.91930059
PagB51VKf4NkDxisU6EH5wtpHFvH5mQnc1 ,6120,5063.50767465
PadMoGsbU4n3vmephvG5wzumeRLn3RWayL ,30.661,25.36800798
PiywY9RJGTFY41gKku1m6gRTeJhTbHEafX ,10,8.27370535
PuF15NGfegzbxQ6PPqRMBhoZsZbW6kpo6p ,20,16.5474107
PjRCm4xf3KmpzuxYcpa9sN14iRcuPYfGtB ,2,1.65474107
PjHugwLoCrKBCXERgiuPgK7RFbTt1AiU29 ,4,3.30948214
PfFLim8RPGPkpAn8kAmQhVxn6t2FnQfGig ,107.613,89.03582539
PgbP2zDWz8vwpz9CDKi18Lj7YS5GjCeA7X ,5,4.13685268
PnrYHrsZcQxHabETusASqRdGTjyVa5WiLd ,49.4999,40.95475875
Pmyuw6iFTuAN4m8HV1dCfPTWLdjbpxPsw8 ,40,33.0948214
Ph3hw9fLcTnMZCgQBsHMXqhqhzvQxuaRpW ,0.4,0.33094821
PuaeYFCwsYCm25e6mSPA1SjSUsYpQzqZw2 ,1.77,1.46444585
PokVwdh2qSXDGwkkCMKa1wBKEwR47LF7rJ ,50,41.36852675
PnEYDvtFJqdFniBU3sQDSk1tqEzYGtA5hg ,1,0.82737054
PtwYmXAuksDYTaXHGFM9XhCY9VBtRESvz7 ,2.19,1.81194147
PrpTbeN4UKPgrHii4cJS5JHWrwQriSvEHM ,0.276,0.22835427
PjhYHRZMEKhdiKx6WWwhoDdH3WFsCTRpE6 ,3.33,2.75514388
PgY5bwLhkh9vB9vv3VUHa3qvYQ4Vr9RK4e ,4,3.30948214
PoKXVpCNkQ4qRLz5PXxH2JP9vckeBNgwDG ,10,8.27370535
PrpTbeN4UKPgrHii4cJS5JHWrwQriSvEHM ,0.5,0.41368527
PpMjQWhYf9mSWGqC3nc3jT2VNALVPVFng3 ,1,0.82737054
PqPZ5WTBEzvzogPuQ7JULLTHNTC5hhPJm8 ,10,8.27370535
PaFTVnAVGBXVm2M9JwzTWBg4grZF3Dq4EY ,20,16.5474107
PjEwaTLiaCV2Zev1gDR5RnoaP5FRt9qwf7 ,2,1.65474107
Pd5T7JkvMcdPq8kJMy83KeEtf3tGcKjraa ,20,16.5474107
Pqco7LoTLqEDq7xhbXCHNnCZ1WaShd7fi7 ,6,4.96422321
PmCtXtJZecdPyefSaU8pNBJPJMevbEKXfX ,1,0.82737054
PuPWyYWVV9b74iMxjZpF3ERvW3L417cU7b ,8,6.61896428
PZKnCeunEfmqFYHk4iFkDwmhGtvGLD39t5 ,1.3,1.0755817
PuiR9SqVFqytPrtZ9ZkZn2i5Jg15haGphP ,0.86,0.71153866
PqZxZm4BBhCNdfDEMDsGcWijzyMWi4Tzpm ,0.39,0.32267451
Phxxvxy3LAwvNUPRCZbBwuY55jZySXjXgn ,12.1212,10.02872373
PdbbYvKZGDT8Lh1fw1q6jeM1QdEA7aRTwZ ,4.71237204,3.89887778
PgjNdTXCQQV97eBd5vaCHiqUtAvFF9B4xK ,4.17027992,3.45036673
PXzib3XBtfRCvX4xjfR8me2rBk6k6CeJ7S ,50,41.36852675
Pw8yBPMupPFYSr31jbcDeuvcBiSA6L2Zha ,100,82.73705351
PuMfGuoiMe9fmrwCwuJYEMY6mQmSpe6KyS ,120,99.28446421


PUBLIC NOTICE

I have confirmed Trog's numbers to within 1 PTS and since there have been no objections for 24 hours, I will request issuing of these refunds tomorrow.

Since no one has demanded a penalty, no penalty will be requested.  The hours it will take to implement this will be written off to the "treat others as you would like to be treated" account.

Nothing about this action should be construed to imply an obligation to repeat this.
It is a one-time act of grace obtained by general consent of the BitShares community.

[santaclause102]

sigh. 

I believe that mining would have served the purpose of enabling transactions in a reliable, proven way for Bitshares and that over time they could have moved to a Proof of Stake model if that is what is desirable.  They are doing this now with PTS so it's not like I'm inventing something that would never happen.

Daniel and I spoke extensively about a post-mining world in December, I am very much a proponant of this view - but I am also a pragmatic investor who supported a concept that did in fact involve mining and more importantly that would be distribution 90% of the total tokens through non-monetary means.  That is to say, people don't have to buy Bitshares to get bitshares, they just have to run their computer.  Remember this was also when the Invictus refrain was that Bitshares would be the coin EVERYBODY could mine and get vested in for just some of their time.

That was a whole three months ago so most people here have forgotten.   As I like to say, when you leave money on the table in an open source world you're inviting someone well suited to come along and build a business picking up that money - that 90% was important because it's the ultimate onboarding mechanism.  A taste for free, if they're believers the efficient thing to do is buy a bunch.

When Angelshares rolled out, I suggested it be 10% to match the 10% of PTS but rather than take a middle step, we went 100% to the other extreme.

It should also be noted we only launched Angelshares because Invictus didn't get many Protoshares, because they wanted EVERYTHING to be as fair as possible which meant not taking any of the tokens.   I suggested several times prior to launch taking 10-25% of the tokens since after all the Invictus company was the entity giving value to PTS.   They didn't want to do that because they were too extreme in the other direction, so Angelshares was an unfortunate 100% shift from TOTALLY INCLUSIVE to TOTALLY MONETARY.

This was sold as "a better deal" because it increased the share from 10% to 50% for PTS holders, but it's like 50% of a much much smaller pie.   My cries of "Don't change the deal" are attempts to explain this - When you make the deal better for ANY PARTY, you are making it worse for someone else.   When you take money that would otherwise be left on the table, you remove the opportunity for someone to build a business picking it up.   That's the Bitshares ecosystem in a nutshell, Invictus hoovered up all the money with Angelshares and now they're doing stuff we hope will work with zero accountability.

But is mining getting rid of the need to have money to buy in? If mining would give it al the the average guy I would be all for mining. But in the end mining gives the coins just to those that can afford mining equipement that is efficient enough to be run economically. In the end miners are professionals that invest in equipment that bring coins into existence and then sell those coins for a price above electricity costs. If you can not afford this mining equipment you have to buy the coins from the professional miners for the market value of there was no mining + the electricity costs of the miner + a small margin. In the end you can not avoid to distribute the coins based on peoples buying power (money) but making an IPO in addition gives you capital so you can speed up the development process (I am sure dev. would be far back if it would be just Dan coding) and promote the idea to get a wider supporter base....

On the meta discussion part: I think we should appreciate the variety of perspectives and use it as a competitive advantage.  Apart from the trade of character of any decision there also is a trade of between the ways decisions are made. I discussed this here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3480.0

[gamey]

Adam, last night I was going at you a bit harshly.   Being relatively new around here, all I had seen from you were the posting of short comments that appeared very troll-like to me.  Worse, it seemed like a troll with a lot of clout. I believe when a guy loses ~30k USD on a typo, it might very well be a bit of a life ruining experience.  I thought it was the right thing for I3 to help the guy out.  It seemed apparent Ebit wasn't trying to scam anything to me.  Although now I understand your point  better, yesterday it was a bit different.  I found your comments on Ebit's situation troll-like.

However, your last message last night was quite thoughtful and explained to me your context within Bitshares.  It is appreciated.  I am with you about keeping a fire lit under Dan's feet and want to hear more thoughtful critiques.
 
Anyway, I'm going to start listening to your show regularly to help keep up with the varied technologies we are both fans of.  Your last post last night sold me.

edit - Also, I'd ask that you please stick around and continue with productive critiques.  You have varied knowledge of the bitcoin 2.0 playing field.  Likely as much anyone around here.  So please continue to post critiques of bad approaches/ideas.

[bytemaster]

So while mining has been proven for bitcoin style transactions it has not been proven for markets.


It would have been great to see it in practice given that was the opportunity and plan.

Developing something you know can be attacked just to see if it fails costs money & time.   To prevent attacks in a mining network we would have to freeze the proceeds of all trades for 120 blocks because trades cannot be migrated from a fork to the main chain.  Because they are performed by the 'miners' it has to follow the same restrictions as Bitcoin's mining rewards.   

[AdamBLevine]

So while mining has been proven for bitcoin style transactions it has not been proven for markets.


It would have been great to see it in practice given that was the opportunity and plan.

[bytemaster]

What Adam is missing is that dealing with mining forks is not trivial and in the case of btsx has all kinds of market issues.   

So while mining has been proven for bitcoin style transactions it has not been proven for markets.   

So the argument isn't whether to use wheels or hover, there is only one way that can work securely.   

We need to eliminate forks. 

We need to solve attacks (intentional or not) like pts has had.   

We do not want centralization in the hands of cloud miners.   Market manipulation and double spends are much easier with mining where real trades occur on chain. 

So please do not trivialize the motivations for DPOS. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pheonike]

The car analogy is good. Everyone else is trying  to build faster more efficient internal combustion engine but they are still relying on fossil fuels.  Dan and Bitshares are going full electric like Tesla motors. It takes longer and you have to build the infrastructure, but in the end you have a more efficient system.

[luckybit]

I wish Daniel had focused on delivering Bitshares as envisioned and then created subsequent versions or products that incorporate these elements.  That is what I signed on for, not "whatever daniel larimer thinks is a good idea this week".    The delays have been because the focus and method has constantly pivoted to be "the best possible" when in reality not having launched the product we don't even know what is best and if these "improvements" are making things better or worse, since we've never had an opportunity to see a product to compare against.

You have faith in Daniel, the people who remain on these forums clearly do which is why it's an echo chamber and people with dissenting views find themselves shouted down by the people who are passionate about the bitshares vision instead of pragmatic about the reality.      I'm using these 2.0 products every day (projects on Mastercoin, Counterparty, I'm working with the NXT and Ethereum communities), this is not a hypothetical situation.   

Bitshares was in first, and now they're in last - Even Ethereum has highly functional test code out for interested parties to build contracts on, why are we reinventing the transaction processing wheel?   

Because Daniel decided mining is dead, and that's been the technological focus ever since.   Mining will eventually be phased out, but it should NEVER have replaced the core mission of delivering Bitshares, and it clearly did.

The problem is creating a blockchain then deciding to switch the consensus algorithm is UGLY.

Let me take a bit of liberty here, but you are valuing market dominance where I am patient for technological dominance which eventually leads to a strong market position.  I'm sure we could both sit here and argue the merits of both views ?

Dan is trying to make something that works and will not be overtaken.  That has upsides, but the downside is release date.

I don't disagree with your "pragmatic reality" nor do I believe I am "shouting it down".   I just see my investment as longterm or "binary".

I believe this tech will be around as long as the net.  I started the internet on SLIP and Gopher.. so I've seen a few changes.

To me the questions are more like... 'Does it make more sense to release a run of the mill POW currency or the next generation gold standard POS currency ?" 

Dan has opened himself to the market of ideas.  No doubt he has an ego, but he is publicly seeking the best solutions which is something I very very much respect given the suspected "binary" outcome.

This is an area where you and I continue to disagree. Technological dominance has not been proven to lead to market dominance. Marketing leads to market dominance. Bitcoin and Litecoin have market dominance without technological dominance.

Bitshares will have technological dominance but that could just mean it will be the most forked code on the scene. It doesn't mean it's going to result in a high market cap unless our community is the one doing the forking for other communities.

Bitshares has the potential to have a very large market cap only if it's very well marketed and actually used. Ultimately it's all about the community behind the technology which determines success or failure.

Adam has had great ideas and is a benefit to this community. We want someone like him to be a long time holder of Bitshares. But other communities are offering shares too so it's competitive. I hope Bitshares does have the best technology but more importantly it needs to attract and retain the best thinkers in the industry.

Right now I would say the Bitshares community is doing very well attracting talent but that process must be continual. Mastercoin is attracting talent too and could attract the talent away from the Bitshares community if they solve their political dispute with Bitcoin core devs.

[luckybit]

sigh. 

I believe that mining would have served the purpose of enabling transactions in a reliable, proven way for Bitshares and that over time they could have moved to a Proof of Stake model if that is what is desirable.  They are doing this now with PTS so it's not like I'm inventing something that would never happen.

Daniel and I spoke extensively about a post-mining world in December, I am very much a proponant of this view - but I am also a pragmatic investor who supported a concept that did in fact involve mining and more importantly that would be distribution 90% of the total tokens through non-monetary means.  That is to say, people don't have to buy Bitshares to get bitshares, they just have to run their computer.  Remember this was also when the Invictus refrain was that Bitshares would be the coin EVERYBODY could mine and get vested in for just some of their time.

While I could not solve every problem please read my thread on virtual mining.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3587.0

I'm trying to promote this as a transitional solution. I think it's proven to work for Blackcoin.
This way we can all mine altcoins and receive Bitshares as the payout. The benefit of this is Bitshares wouldn't inflate.