Author Topic: NXT online wallet  (Read 6104 times)

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Offline cryptkeeper

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NXT online wallet
« on: May 19, 2014, 05:00:11 pm »
I deposited some NXT on the online wallet, woke up this morning found out someone or something wiped my account clean. Does anyone know how this could've happened. Initially I didn't want to use the online client but my computer wouldn't let me download it. I traded 9 pts for the nxt too. I can kick myself.

Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 05:03:46 pm »
The NXT webwallet / brainwallet requires a strong password and you have to send some nxt (amount doesnt matter) to another address other wise the encryption is weak. That was what was necessary  month ago. I guess it is still valid...

Offline cryptkeeper

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 02:29:08 am »
I got my coins back. Which is weird.  ::)

Offline donkeypong

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 05:09:16 am »
Same thing has happened with my NXT. It came and went from the wallet, but as long as you can see it on the blockchain, you'll just need to wait until the next time they release an updated wallet that actually works. I started my 2.0 experiment with NXT, but quickly became frustrated, and ended up much happier here with Bitshares. I don't see why they had to build that whole NXT ecosystem from scratch on Java with that clunky passphrase login.

They are slowly making NXT more user friendly, but I still didn't have a good feeling about it and I moved on. Most importantly, they do not have the vision of Bitshares in terms of the products, nor does NXT have anyone with a keen understanding of economics like Bitshares does. Aside from Maidsafe, is there a single worthy investment anywhere in Mastercoin or NXT? They all look like scams, fly-by-night schemes, and assorted trash. I'd trade them all for a snapshot in any one DAC within Bitshares...Oh that's right; I did trade them in all for PTS and AGS already!

One more thing: I love that we know who the Bitshares team is. They're not hiding under some rock using fake names. This is an honest and communicative bunch. 

Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 08:20:42 am »
Same thing has happened with my NXT. It came and went from the wallet, but as long as you can see it on the blockchain, you'll just need to wait until the next time they release an updated wallet that actually works. I started my 2.0 experiment with NXT, but quickly became frustrated, and ended up much happier here with Bitshares. I don't see why they had to build that whole NXT ecosystem from scratch on Java with that clunky passphrase login.

They are slowly making NXT more user friendly, but I still didn't have a good feeling about it and I moved on. Most importantly, they do not have the vision of Bitshares in terms of the products, nor does NXT have anyone with a keen understanding of economics like Bitshares does. Aside from Maidsafe, is there a single worthy investment anywhere in Mastercoin or NXT? They all look like scams, fly-by-night schemes, and assorted trash. I'd trade them all for a snapshot in any one DAC within Bitshares...Oh that's right; I did trade them in all for PTS and AGS already!

One more thing: I love that we know who the Bitshares team is. They're not hiding under some rock using fake names. This is an honest and communicative bunch.

Quote
One more thing: I love that we know who the Bitshares team is. They're not hiding under some rock using fake names. This is an honest and communicative bunch. 
+5%

NXT doesnt have the cooperative like structures and incentives to build DACs effectively like Bitshares/III has. The community is their strength though, because all the responsibility is with the community. I also have Counterparty. I think they have a great team which is important to acquire projects that wanna IPO on your platform and I think it is undervalued, also it is more feature rich than Mastercoin... I think it is not good that they are depended on Bitcoin. There argument is that they can move the ledger at any time to a better (POS) system if that is proven in terms of security. 

Offline gaba

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 09:55:59 am »
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.

Offline xeroc

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 10:04:42 am »
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.

Sad .. but true
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Offline liondani

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 10:13:05 am »
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.

Sad .. but true

Let's be a little bit more patience and wait to make the comparison when the "product" is out...

PS I think it is good that the barriers are high... we must put them "only" higher... would it be not a benefit for all of us?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 12:35:46 pm by liondani »

Offline fuzzy

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 10:43:44 am »
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.

Sad .. but true

Let's be a little bit more patience and wait to make the comparison when the "product" is out...

NXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with.  Since when did our culture get so impatient?  If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today. 
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Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 03:20:53 pm »
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.

Sad .. but true

Let's be a little bit more patience and wait to make the comparison when the "product" is out...

NXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with.  Since when did our culture get so impatient?  If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today.

+5%

Offline mitao

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 03:36:23 pm »



NXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with.  Since when did our culture get so impatient?  If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today.

Patience? What you are waiting for is quite possible just a litecoin with bitcoin already out there. NXT AE is online, and BTS is still struggling on the test of the test network. If AE and BTS ME is doing similar job, apparently NXT IS the winner. Who know NXT won't push a project similar to BTS X in a month?


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Offline fuzzy

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 04:56:38 pm »



NXT is a solid tech, but "clear winner" here is difficult to agree with.  Since when did our culture get so impatient?  If early investors in bitcoin would have been so impatient it would have never gained any value...instead it took 5 years for Bitcoin to become what it is today.

Patience? What you are waiting for is quite possible just a litecoin with bitcoin already out there. NXT AE is online, and BTS is still struggling on the test of the test network. If AE and BTS ME is doing similar job, apparently NXT IS the winner. Who know NXT won't push a project similar to BTS X in a month?


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Nobody knows...that is the point I'm making. 
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Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 08:58:46 pm »
NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 09:02:12 pm by gamey »
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 09:25:12 pm »
NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 09:27:36 pm »
While I like some aspects of nxt, like being completely new code instead of a standard copy-coin, new PoS and other such things. The two things that kept me from going all the way, were the unwillingness to publish the source code at the start and then when they finally open-sourced it the nonsense with the terminal bugs being left in. I also think they went a bit beyond pseudo-/anonymity over into odd secretive and non-communicative territory.  I've been to busy lately to keep track of the latest developments and only have time to post once in a while on any of the forums, but the lack of openness and clarity around the source-code has kept me hesitant.

EDIT
Thanks for the link Delulo and I agree with you that their concept of a DAC is a bit odd. It actually doesn't sound distributed at all, more like a standard centralized one, with decentralized administration and stockholder-tracking. Odd, because I've read some post by bluemeanie on bitcointalk and he did sound like a guy who understood the concepts over there.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 09:33:55 pm by JoeyD »

Offline cryptkeeper

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2014, 09:52:29 pm »
back to zero balance again wow. i'm glad I didn't invest a lot.

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2014, 09:58:56 pm »
Yes, NXT still has not released any recent source code.  If you would like to look at the code of the AE then AFAIK you are shit out of luck.  (Yes you can decompile it, but one can decompile *ANY* code and that doesn't make it open source.)  Please correct me if wrong.  Atcually I'm not sure how the alternative wallets were made ?  Off published spec?  Anyone know ?

As much as the open source model hurts some, it has come to be expected in crypto-currency world.  Anyone should be able to see why...

NXT's DACs are not DACs by any stretch.  Remove the A and it would be a far closer fit.  I applaud them for that direction, but there is nothing autonomous that I see.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:02:25 pm by gamey »
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Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 10:01:30 pm »
back to zero balance again wow. i'm glad I didn't invest a lot.

Wait what ?  How could it be ?

And people blame Dan for taking time to test !!

If the BCNext guy wrote most of the code before asking for donations then that was the smartest move of them all.  Does anyone know which forum that thread is on ?
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Offline cryptkeeper

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 10:08:29 pm »
I don't know but I'm done I wash my hands of NXT.

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 10:29:28 pm »
Yes, NXT still has not released any recent source code.  If you would like to look at the code of the AE then AFAIK you are shit out of luck.  (Yes you can decompile it, but one can decompile *ANY* code and that doesn't make it open source.)  Please correct me if wrong.  Atcually I'm not sure how the alternative wallets were made ?  Off published spec?  Anyone know ?

As much as the open source model hurts some, it has come to be expected in crypto-currency world.  Anyone should be able to see why...

NXT's DACs are not DACs by any stretch.  Remove the A and it would be a far closer fit.  I applaud them for that direction, but there is nothing autonomous that I see.
What are you for real, nxt still hasn't opensourced their code?

I admit I didn't look into it, but there was this big announcement and hubbub on the bitcointalk-thread how they had finally released all source-code with 3 major flaws and a bounty for the person who could find them. In the crypto-currency/equity-world for me open-source is fundamental even-though I'm just a white belt in code-fu and I would not be able to find any real flaws, I'd still advise anyone against trusting in security through obscurity. After Snowden that security model has been definitively proven as flawed and unusable. I figured I'd give nxt a little time and see how it would stand up to the scrutiny of the usual peer-review process, but if it is not open-source it should be avoided like the bubonic plague.

EDIT
Very odd though, because bluemeanie was raging on bitcointalk about how Ethereum wasn't opensource and hadn't released any of the real important code proving that their design and security could work.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:40:11 pm by JoeyD »

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 10:38:55 pm »
Yes, NXT still has not released any recent source code.  If you would like to look at the code of the AE then AFAIK you are shit out of luck.  (Yes you can decompile it, but one can decompile *ANY* code and that doesn't make it open source.)  Please correct me if wrong.  Atcually I'm not sure how the alternative wallets were made ?  Off published spec?  Anyone know ?

As much as the open source model hurts some, it has come to be expected in crypto-currency world.  Anyone should be able to see why...

NXT's DACs are not DACs by any stretch.  Remove the A and it would be a far closer fit.  I applaud them for that direction, but there is nothing autonomous that I see.
What are you for real, nxt still hasn't opensourced their code?

I admit I didn't look into it, but there was this big announcement and hubbub on the bitcointalk-thread how they had finally released all source-code with 3 major flaws and a bounty for the person who could find them. In the crypto-currency/equity-world for me open-source is fundamental even-though I'm just a white belt in code-fu and I would not be able to find any real flaws, I'd still advise anyone against trusting in security through obscurity. After Snowden that security model has been definitively proven as flawed and unusable. I figured I'd give nxt a little time and see how it would stand up to the scrutiny of the usual peer-review process, but if it is not open-source it should be avoided like the bubonic plague.

EDIT
Very odd though, because bluemeanie was raging on bitcointalk about how Ethereum wasn't opensource and hadn't released any of the real important code proving that their security could work.

I said recent.  By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network. 

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Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 10:43:14 pm »
I said recent.  By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network. 
Damn, I can't believe I missed that. That completely destroys any sympathy I had for the project and I'm very glad you brought that point up. That's another project I had some hope for down the drain.

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 10:54:29 pm »
I said recent.  By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network. 
Damn, I can't believe I missed that. That completely destroys any sympathy I had for the project and I'm very glad you brought that point up. That's another project I had some hope for down the drain.

Do not quote me on that though. That was just my impression after a brief inspection.  So correct me if I'm wrong please.  They're going to make sure that all the currency forks are behind them.  It is not particularly wrong but it really isn't the same as a true open source project. I only bring these things up in defense of bitshares and their model. I think nxt is cool tech just not really competing with bts/pts.

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Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 11:23:08 pm »
I said recent.  By recent I mean any 1.x version of the code. No doubt they have released some code but I do not think it would even work on today's network. 
Damn, I can't believe I missed that. That completely destroys any sympathy I had for the project and I'm very glad you brought that point up. That's another project I had some hope for down the drain.

Do not quote me on that though. That was just my impression after a brief inspection.  So correct me if I'm wrong please.  They're going to make sure that all the currency forks are behind them.  It is not particularly wrong but it really isn't the same as a true open source project. I only bring these things up in defense of bitshares and their model. I think nxt is cool tech just not really competing with bts/pts.
Don't worry I'll do my own research, I try to not make a habit of blaming others for my own mistakes. I'm too tired and strapped for time at the moment, but this one is pretty high up my priorities list now.

I was very enthusiastic about their tech as well, although I'm not very fond of their Java-dependence and single-blockchain-philosophy. I also agree that they are not a competitor for bitshares, I saw them as competitor to projects like Ethereum, mastercoin and counterparty and very much ahead in the game. However if I find that what you said is true then NXT is at best a dead-end in my point of view, and that's putting it very nicely indeed. I'll get back to you, as soon as I find anything. I'm suddenly starting to remember hearing people complain about not being able to find the source-code, white-papers or documentation, so I'm starting to fear that you are right and I was just not paying close enough attention.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 11:27:56 pm by JoeyD »

Offline puppies

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 01:46:51 am »
It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.

I wholeheartedly agree, and it is something which I constantly have to remind myself of.  I don't view bitshares as a way to make money.  I am actually much more interested in the products.  If the derivatives traded on BTSX can ever gain acceptance as a form of payment that would be world shattering.  if .p2p can ensure me that I know who I am talking to online.  If keyhotee can encrypt it without my having to get on the phone to explain to my friends/family how to decrypt it.  If lotto can let me satiate the gambling bug that sometimes comes out.  I like making money as much as the next guy, but I'm much more interested in transacting privately, communicating securely, and I, well I guess gambling.

When Netflix first came out with their streaming media offering I wrote them a letter.  In this letter I explained that I had been pirating for many years.  I explained that i had "stolen" Tens of thousands of dollars of "Intellectual Property" not because I couldn't afford it (although I really couldn't at the time) but because the pirated product was of a higher quality than the purchasable one.  I didn't have to deal with DRM locking up my box, or installing rootkits, or limiting my copy or playback.  I did however have to deal with securing my box from the haxxors, (IMHO an easier feat than managing the DRM malware) and managing my own storage.   Then Netflix came along, and allowed me to stream directly from their servers without having to worry about any of that crap.  I no longer had to watch my hard drive and delete old crap.  I no longer had to worry about if I'd thoroughly vetted sCenE_ReleASe_pRime_TRio_ReloaDED.  I just pressed the fucking button.  And all they wanted for this was $8 a month.  I thought it was a fucking steal.  I wrote them for finally competing against piracy on the quality front.  After that I of course asked them to rethink their entire DRM strategy (cause I can't just pull from buffer) and to include support for Nix boxes, but I think you get the point.    ....Oh the point...

To me Bitshares allows us to compete with all sorts of centralized robbery schemes.  Whether that be government, or multinational conglomerate corporations.  You pick your poison (although I do ask you which you would find more concerning.  having government goons (PD/FBI/ATF/IRS/DEA(and yes I did a bracket within a bracket within a bracket)) or a directTV salesman knocking at your door.)  It allows us to compete in the eyes of the average moron that still believes that Romney vs Obama was an actual choice.

Anyways Apologies /endrant
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Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 07:37:13 am »
Is this supposed to be the open-source code for nxt?

I've looked around a bit and I am worried that I was unable to find a single comment anywhere.  While I know there are people who believe in the maxim of good code speaks for itself and doesn't need comments, I'm not particularly convinced that code is able to convey it's intended purpose or reasoning behind it's design.

I'll dig around a bit more, but you are right that it is hard to find any real information on the source code. I did find a lot of Lego mindstorms code and discussions of people interested in the nxt-code having to receive a personal invitation before being able to get access to the git-repository. I also haven't been able to find the mailing lists or any other place where development discussion is taking place. So, until I'm able to find more, I have to agree with your assessment that NXT is not actually as open-source as I previously believed and my enthusiasm about it has cooled down considerably.

Offline xeroc

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 07:59:48 am »
Afaik JeanLukes repo IS the official one .. he is core dev.
What i do not know is wheather AE is part of the sources ... but my guesa would be yes

Edit: taking a look at the commits shows AE commits .... total sources seem to be open source
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:01:52 am by xeroc »
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Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 09:09:29 am »
JeanLucPicard is from the NXT generation of starships yeah.

I've cloned the git repo, but still was unable to find any comments. I've got a terrible memory so trying to trace around the code and classes is difficult for me and I quickly lose track. Do you happen to know where the nxt-devs hangout and talk shop? Forensic analysis of code is not my forte and even that is quite an understatement.

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 09:34:12 am »
Nxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit active
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Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 09:52:21 am »

Well it appears I was spreading FUD.  I remember in the past few days looking at a NXT wiki and seeing links to 0.8.6 and some other previous version.  Perhaps the git repo of JeanLuc was also there, but I didn't realize it was the working git repo.  I've went back now and don't see what I recall previously, (only links to jeanluc's repo).   It wasn't important at all so I didn't put any time into the matter..   Thank you for investigating it JoeyD.
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Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 10:52:48 am »
Nxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit active

Thanks for those links and I also finally found the reason for the cloak and dagger act with their source code on that forum. That is if Come-from-beyond is part of the core team, but judging from his posts he seems to fulfill a pivotal role.  According to him the reason he is (or they are) keeping a tight lid on some of the code, most importantly transparent forging which sounds an awful lot like the delegate system from what I'm reading there, is because he fears cloning/forking and first wants the network effect and node-framework in place before making it public.

Is NXT not getting any shit for that? Just look at what the Invictus team has to put up with and they aren't even locking their share in or keeping secrets like that. Hell they seem to be exceptionally public and outspoken even encouraging people to fork/compete so you'd expect NXT to receive a much bigger public lashing, very odd.

There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 11:28:14 am »
Nxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit active

Thanks for those links and I also finally found the reason for the cloak and dagger act with their source code on that forum. That is if Come-from-beyond is part of the core team, but judging from his posts he seems to fulfill a pivotal role.  According to him the reason he is (or they are) keeping a tight lid on some of the code, most importantly transparent forging which sounds an awful lot like the delegate system from what I'm reading there, is because he fears cloning/forking and first wants the network effect and node-framework in place before making it public.

Is NXT not getting any shit for that? Just look at what the Invictus team has to put up with and they aren't even locking their share in or keeping secrets like that. Hell they seem to be exceptionally public and outspoken even encouraging people to fork/compete so you'd expect NXT to receive a much bigger public lashing, very odd.

There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?
+5% nice summary.
Plus: compare nxt's IPO with that of 3i. shorter period .. not announced end of donation... just over 70 stake holders .. just a little more the 20 btc (afair)

I expect btsxt and btsx aswell as ptd2 too generate a much bigger buzz. I can remember alot of people not buying nxt because of the 70-people premine scam...


Btw: most dangerous thing currently ongoing with pts to pts2 is my concerns others might call the 15% marketing 'share' a premine (which it basically is)
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Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 12:19:46 pm »
Nxtforum.org ? also r/NXT at reddit is quit active

Thanks for those links and I also finally found the reason for the cloak and dagger act with their source code on that forum. That is if Come-from-beyond is part of the core team, but judging from his posts he seems to fulfill a pivotal role.  According to him the reason he is (or they are) keeping a tight lid on some of the code, most importantly transparent forging which sounds an awful lot like the delegate system from what I'm reading there, is because he fears cloning/forking and first wants the network effect and node-framework in place before making it public.

Is NXT not getting any shit for that? Just look at what the Invictus team has to put up with and they aren't even locking their share in or keeping secrets like that. Hell they seem to be exceptionally public and outspoken even encouraging people to fork/compete so you'd expect NXT to receive a much bigger public lashing, very odd.

There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?
+5% nice summary.
Plus: compare nxt's IPO with that of 3i. shorter period .. not announced end of donation... just over 70 stake holders .. just a little more the 20 btc (afair)

I expect btsxt and btsx aswell as ptd2 too generate a much bigger buzz. I can remember alot of people not buying nxt because of the 70-people premine scam...


Btw: most dangerous thing currently ongoing with pts to pts2 is my concerns others might call the 15% marketing 'share' a premine (which it basically is)

Plus the biggest no no of them all and one I still think is very very bad, no source code at the time of pre-sale on top of the 70 person premine and flash sale.

About the PTS2 announcement and the need to distribute those 15% remaining coins.
Invictus are definitely not handling PR and community communication as well as they should, I was under the impression that at least 2 team-members were hired for that cause. This confusion needs to be cleared up asap. Also having some celebrity personas utter their apparently completely uninformed/uneducated or unsupported viewpoints,  resulting in some ridiculous claims and statements go (or actively trying to make them go) viral on all the public channels, while Invictus/bitshares leaves those claims out in the open, with answers hidden in posts on often unrelated topics is not helping much either.

Offline gaba

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2014, 08:43:30 am »
Just look where is NXT now just one week later. We are still on whitepapers and angels. Time is ticking.

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2014, 10:39:56 am »
NXT is clear winner. Bytemaster can't deliver with thousands of BTC what NXT did with 21. It's simple amazing.

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Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2014, 12:33:55 pm »
Quote
There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?
Interesting (the censoring)... do you have a link?

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2014, 02:37:48 pm »
NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1

hi delulo,

I'm heading off the Virtual Corp project.  The technology was meant to mimic real world corporations.

Not sure if Bitshares DACs have anything to offer over NXT Vcorps, but certainly I'm up to discuss.

-bm
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:40:32 pm by bluemeanie1 »

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2014, 03:07:02 pm »
Quote
There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?
Interesting (the censoring)... do you have a link?

I have a bad habit of not making bookmarks of information I found very quickly, only to discover afterwards that I'm unable to find it again. I found another thread discussing a similar occurrence and it seems they are referencing the discussion about censorship, unfortunately I'm unable to use the search function on that website, because I've forgotten my login (Could very well be I forgot to register as well, I'm losing track of which forums I've registered to).

EDIT
Sorry bluemeanie1 didn't mean to ignore you. Some members who are also part of the bitshares community are working on a collaborative project under the name BeyondBitcoin and are trying to get the discussion going on that subject via interviews or weekly meetups on the mumble voice-chat server. Maybe you would be interested in doing either an interview on your project or attending one of the mumble-sessions as a guest speaker?

From what I understand the general idea behind the BeyondBitcoin project is to have people from different communities do their own thing and hold their own meetups and digital conferences and such on the mumble server and try to get some cross pollination going, without needing to travel across half the globe and pay high entrance fees to attend a bitcoinconference.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 03:53:25 pm by JoeyD »

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2014, 04:52:10 pm »
I might also add that there is a Virtual Corporations subforumhttps://nxtforum.org/virtual-corporations/

-bm

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2014, 05:05:14 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2014, 05:14:06 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

Offline luckybit

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2014, 06:58:38 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

I believe I've communicated with you in the past. What is your opinion on NXT at this price? Is it something to buy or is it over priced?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 07:01:29 pm by luckybit »
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Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2014, 07:07:19 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

I believe I've communicated with you in the past. What is your opinion on NXT at this price? Is it something to buy or is it over priced?

I think we've interacted over at Peershares?

I think it's a great buy.  Lots of stuff happening at NXT right now.  You've got a number of new core features rolling out and a number of interesting financial services are popping up.  Right now we've got a short sale window, and they're developing Forex futures and a few other things.  And of course, I'm working on VCorps.  Seems like everyone is jumping in, the more features they build out, more real demand for NXT while supply-side remains constant.  That's a fairly fundamental equation for rising prices.

-bm

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2014, 11:20:48 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

Thanks for clearing that up, it sounds like I understood your concept correctly then. I'm curious with what you'll come up with.

Are you still using the term DAC or have you stepped away from that? Because your are not really talking about a decentralized autonomous company/organisation in your model. Not trying to split hairs here, but it looks like you are going in a completely different direction from the DAC-concepts in bitshares and I'm trying to get my head around what you're trying to do and what benefits and pitfalls a blockchain-based-solution will bring to the table in your application. Biggest pitfall as I see it would be the legal status and validity in the world outside of the blockchain.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2014, 11:34:21 pm »
@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

Thanks for clearing that up, it sounds like I understood your concept correctly then. I'm curious with what you'll come up with.

Are you still using the term DAC or have you stepped away from that? Because your are not really talking about a decentralized autonomous company/organisation in your model. Not trying to split hairs here, but it looks like you are going in a completely different direction from the DAC-concepts in bitshares and I'm trying to get my head around what you're trying to do and what benefits and pitfalls a blockchain-based-solution will bring to the table in your application. Biggest pitfall as I see it would be the legal status and validity in the world outside of the blockchain.

I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm

Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2014, 11:51:56 pm »
NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1

hi delulo,

I'm heading off the Virtual Corp project.  The technology was meant to mimic real world corporations.

Not sure if Bitshares DACs have anything to offer over NXT Vcorps, but certainly I'm up to discuss.

-bm

I like the such discussions. For as much as I read this is quite a bit a different understanding.... I'd like to discuss it but I don't have much time the whole week. But I will get back to you....

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2014, 08:44:53 am »
I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm
Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2014, 04:02:06 pm »
I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm
Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

they also haven't left the drawing board?  I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

It's not clear to me how you can build something valuable out of some inert script on the blockchain?  You don't think that's going to be exploitable?

I ran across this yesterday, I found it hilarious: http://www.beetcoin.com/content/images/2014/Feb/BM_PTS_2.PNG

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

seems here you are trying to rebound some criticisms I made elsewhere of some other projects in this space.  There's nothing out-of-touch about VCorps, they offer a very useful tool that is entirely feasible to implement.

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2014, 05:20:53 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2014, 05:24:50 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

where is your definition stated?

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2014, 05:59:25 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

where is your definition stated?

Nowhere officially, as far as I know. That's because "DAC" just means "blockchain-based system with shares". So NXT is a DAC too!
We use the term "DAC" to emphasize a metaphor that lets us do economic analysis of such systems. We are absolutely *not* doing anything like building traditional companies.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2014, 06:23:41 pm »
what I tend to see a lot of in these areas are 1) fantastic claims and 2) complete lack of definition, not only on how to accomplish/implement, but even what constitutes the ideas themselves.

So you don't know how to define a DAC, but you pronounce Bitcoin is one[1] and that your ideas are superior, they're 'absolutely not' 'traditional' nor(as someone else claimed) 'centralized'.  For all this talk of DAC we can't even produce a definition!  Materials like the one I linked earlier just further support the theory that this is a lot of hot air.

-bm


[1] and bitcoin is worth several billion dollars, therefore DAC are worth several billion dollars!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 06:25:40 pm by bluemeanie1 »

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2014, 06:39:56 pm »


My belief is that DAC means that the distributions/revenue are distributed via rules in the network.  Therefore the word autonomous.  All the business logic is implemented in a custom network that finds consensus over these rules.

To me, NXT using virtual corporations instead of DACs makes a lot more sense, but I have no seen the full scope of the project.
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Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 06:52:41 pm »


My belief is that DAC means that the distributions/revenue are distributed via rules in the network.  Therefore the word autonomous.  All the business logic is implemented in a custom network that finds consensus over these rules.

To me, NXT using virtual corporations instead of DACs makes a lot more sense, but I have no seen the full scope of the project.

To me the way the term DAC is used shows a lot of ignorance on how corporate value is built in the real world.  It's not 'automatic' it requires quite a bit of thought and work to manage correctly.  Of course we have yet to see any real tangible ideas for DACs emerge, and certainly no real-world examples.

OTOH... :) ...

Virtual Corporations are well grounded in history, as I show HERE and HERE.  This isn't some pied piper routine.

-bm

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 06:55:52 pm »
Why the hostile tone?

What you're saying is we shouldn't use the word "DAC" and should stick with "altcoin" or whatever. That's fine, it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin et al are blockchain-based systems with embedded bearer shares that can be analyzed for profitability.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 06:59:44 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 07:02:04 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

Absolutely not, just stuff like "This isn't some pied piper routine" and "support the theory that this is a lot of hot air" comes across as hostile.
Sorry if I misinterpreted.

Anyway, back to this:

Quote
What you're saying is we shouldn't use the word "DAC" and should stick with "altcoin" or whatever. That's fine, it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin et al are blockchain-based systems with embedded bearer shares that can be analyzed for profitability.

Do you agree or disagree.
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Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:03 pm »
I think you should define what a DAC is before you start applying this term to things.  I think that's a reasonable request.

-bm

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:56 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

I just showed what my definition of DAC means *to me*.  You then go off on some totally irrelevant tangent about a simple definition showing my ignorance etc.  Your criticism had 0 to do with my definition and does nothing to lead to fruitful discussions.   

IMO your response falls in line with other times I have asked questions with NXT community.  That's just my personal criticism though.  I moved on. chuckle. 

If you want people to answer your questions and they do so sincerely, then you just ad hoc attack... then what is the point in interacting with you ?  Why are so many NXT people like this ?
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 07:11:02 pm »
despite your claims, NXT has working software:)

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 07:11:32 pm »
I think you should define what a DAC is before you start applying this term to things.  I think that's a reasonable request.

-bm

Sure, a DAC is a blockchain + cryptequity. If you don't think "DAC" is a good word to describe this, we can temporarily use "DASE", or "distributed autonomous system w/ equity." Surely you would agree that bitcoin is a DASE.

So, given that bitcoin is a DASE, would you agree with my earlier statement?

"Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are DASEs with embedded bearer shares which can be analyzed for profitability".
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 07:14:39 pm »
despite your claims, NXT has working software:)

You forgot to hit the quote button.  Who claimed NXT doesn't have working software ? 
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Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2014, 07:31:35 pm »
hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2014, 07:36:46 pm »
hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

Sorry if you feel like we are treating you wrongly.

I feel like my previous post addressed your questions, including the definition of DAC:

Quote
Sure, a DAC is a blockchain + cryptequity. If you don't think "DAC" is a good word to describe this, we can temporarily use "DASE", or "distributed autonomous system w/ equity." Surely you would agree that bitcoin is a DASE.

So, given that bitcoin is a DASE, would you agree with my earlier statement?

"Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are DASEs with embedded bearer shares which can be analyzed for profitability".

Can you please answer this one question which I have asked in my last 3 posts?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2014, 07:39:09 pm »
Again, we can completely stop using the word "DAC" if you like - it doesn't change the crux of our argument which is that *all* cryptequity are bearer shares and can be analyzed for profitability. Do you agree or disagree?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2014, 07:59:44 pm »
hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

I just answered your question about what I personally thought DAC meant, and you implied it showed my ignorance about how corporations build value or some such.  It was pretty much just an ad hominem attack from you and now you wish to play victim.  I don't get it... 

Here is the thing, this is absolute bleeding edge stuff.  We do not know how it will play out.  Maybe there is a better word than corporation to make the analogy with.  DASE ? (I forget others that have been used.)  Regardless, that has nothing to do with how people understand brick&mortar corporations etc.  You were just being insulting for no reason, then complain about how you are being treated.  I'd like to hear how your NXT Virtual Corporations work.  You should go on one of the Beyond Bitcoin shows.  You'd be treated with respect.  No one would insult you. No one is censoring you here.  Dan Larimer has REPEATEDLY said he wants people to come here and argue over ideas.  I see a lot of insults from you and little else.  So where is there to go from that ?

edit - Changed ad hoc to ad hominem.  If that isn't the error of a coder who is rusty on his Latin.... not sure what is. lol
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 09:21:55 pm by gamey »
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2014, 10:40:12 pm »
hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

bluemeanie1,

your presence here is highly appreciated. It gives a new perspective which is always fruitful. Let's start over again and only focus on the arguments / content and not on us (homines).

Here is my way to go about it. We both use the word DAC. So let's define what in the systems we produce is decentralized, what is autonomous and what is a corporation (I wrote the following on another occasion. That's why it sounds a bit official and very basic)

"Decentralized Autonomous Corporation" (DAC) is only a metaphor. This metaphor applies to NXT Bitcoin and most Bitshares projects alike.
For example Bitcoin can be described as a DAC:
1) It is decentralized insofar as a government could shut down a lot of miners but the network would continue to process transactions because one could never shut down all miners.
2) Bitcoin is autonomous because it does not depend on it's creator to keep on running.
3) Bitcoin is insofar a company as it provides a service (Bitcoins's service is "value transfer" represented by tokens with applications in remittance, e-commerce etc.), it has expenses (electricity costs of miners), it has revenues (fees) and bitcoins can be seen as shares in the "Bitcoin value-transfer-network" which rise in price if the network is used much.
Of course, no analogy can ever be a perfect description of the (code and social) reality. "Decentralized Autonomous Company" is as used above an analytical framework! Not more and not less.
And of course 1, 2 and 3 can be challenged in different ways. So the above is more what attributes a DAC should ideally have. 

As I understand the definition of DAC by NXT: Mimicing a centralized company and replacing as many parts of the centralized company with different parts of the "innovation of Bitcoin" as possible. One part of this process would be to have the company stock being traded for example as colored coins peer to peer + publically auditable stake + voting capacity of shareholders identifying themselves by signing with their private key. My source: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1
In what other ways would a "trad. company" differ from a DAC as defined by you?
Could any company producing any good be made a DAC (as defined by you)?

Maybe you can say in your own words, in which ways your system would be decentralized, autonomous and a company/corporation?

So the way I see it is: YOU / NXT and the Bitshares community just use the same word (DAC) for different things.
So there is no reasons for arguing about the truth of those definitions! Instead it makes sense to discuss how revolutionary the two different concepts are and where their USP is! :) 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 10:47:49 pm by delulo »

Offline donkeypong

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2014, 12:41:18 am »
Nice post, delulo. I support the positive vibes.

Offline bytemaster

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2014, 12:47:33 am »
I think there is a lot of potential for using DAC technology to provide better accounting for traditional firms.    This is what NXT is focusing on (from what I read) and I think it is good and worth while.

While I have attempted to define DAC to be purely in the realm of accomplishing its mission without a central authority, that does not devalue other applications of the technology.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline jefdiesel

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2014, 02:45:13 am »
hey guys

 i've been really digging my head into autoDACS or as bluemeanie calls them VCorps, and I really think the clearest way to think about this is that VCorps are what to investment and capital that Crypto Currencies are to controlling finance and transference of funds.

 Its amazing we can transfer funds freely, low fee, secure and instantly using nothing but co-operation and computing power.

 BUT the blockchain holds no record of the BUSINESS being done. Who knows what you bought, invested in, or traded. At first (SR) this was good. But quickly it becomes limiting.

 Its fine to buy a bag of herbs online, but it works best when you have no recourse as a seller. What if you wanted to build a seller rep? There is no record. VCorps lets you create a device aka a Corporate entity that has responsibility, transparency, and  security.

 Say three guys want to make a business. A dev, a salesman and a money guy. $100k in the pot to start the VCorp, split even 3 ways.
 This VCorps rules are as follows:
 Investor earns 10% monthly from final profits
 Dev earns $10k month
 Salesman earns $5k month and 5% sales., with a 25k monthly minimum for a 1% bonus
 All proceeds go to the account. All expenses, including salaries come out.
 A Profit and Loss is generated monthly and posted.

 No one can take the money and run. Three votes to change any financial aspect.
 Say a year goes buy, business has been good, lets expand.
 This business has a RECORD of business done, highs and lows, and they can offer this info to investors, and even create a virtual IPO




Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2014, 02:51:48 am »
you can also manage many more than just 3 shareholders.  You can manage 1000 shareholders(even more), you can hold virtual board meetings, and distribute dividends with a click or two.  eg. you want to start a local meetup and you want to handle money from contributors, but you don't want to incorporate.  This is a perfect solution.

I think some of the DAC concepts were about building up various logical contingencies- it was like an extension of bitcoin script.  Vcorps inherit from real-world incorporation concepts which have been proven to work for practically a millennium.  There's no mystery here.

-bm

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2014, 02:55:07 am »
one interesting idea someone raised was creating a vcorp for your band, promoting the shares on a band website, and then accepting the shares as tickets while on tour.  So you've effectively pre-paid for your ticket by buying a share, while making it financially possible for the band to come out to you.

lots of fun interesting ideas out there but also serious ones.  Someone is starting a Venture Capital firm *on the NXT block chain* and they will be using VCorps when it's released.  This VC firm will loan out money to finance new features for NXT.  They will likely be handling hundreds of thousands of USD.

-bm

Offline donkeypong

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2014, 03:51:58 pm »
I think there is a huge potential for DAC technology to be leveraged to improve offline corporations. However, I wonder if this was what BCNext had in mind when he created NXT. I don't mean to be a prick, but the NXT vision was to create a decentralized, anti-establishment alternative to Bitcoin. Now it's creating models for corporations to outsource their workforce to computers?

Though I largely left NXT for Bitshares, I am still a fan and hope it succeeds.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:18:27 pm by donkeypong »

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2014, 04:01:15 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2014, 04:13:08 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:15:00 pm by toast »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2014, 04:25:59 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

Of course, I understand there are some good things. There is some wonderful potential there to empower little guys and lots of great stuff happening. I just wonder whether NXT folks these days see the bigger picture and ponder that direction.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2014, 04:29:00 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm

Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2014, 04:31:17 pm »
bluemeanie1,

maybe you can join the conversation content wise. I have presented my categorization of the matter above.

Like toast said the goal is to have a common understanding. Please join the discussion and challenge our categories and definitions :) So we can all enhance our understanding together...

Specifically WOULD YOU AGREE TO MY CATEGORIZATION? See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4634.msg62974#msg62974

delulo
 

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2014, 04:39:04 pm »
donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm

What you said is true! Good job! That's not what I was trying to say. I am not trying to say DACs are "better" than Vcrops. I'm saying we're discussing two distinct concepts.
YOU ARE RIGHT, VCROPS ARE THE BEST AND WE SHOULD ALL BUY NXT. Happy?

I was trying to have a theoretical discussion about crypto-equity.

I've responded to each of your posts so far, will you do me a favor and answer the one question I've asked several times now?

Quote
Again, we can completely stop using the word "DAC" if you like - it doesn't change the crux of our argument which is that *all* cryptequity are bearer shares and can be analyzed for profitability. Do you agree or disagree?

formulated another way:

Quote
A DAC is a blockchain + cryptequity. If you don't think "DAC" is a good word to describe this, we can temporarily use "DASE", or "distributed autonomous system w/ equity." Surely you would agree that bitcoin is a DASE.
So, given that bitcoin is a DASE, would you agree with my earlier statement?
"Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are DASEs with embedded bearer shares which can be analyzed for profitability".
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2014, 04:40:24 pm »

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm


Are you basically saying that you have a product and we don't? Sorry, but that's not much of an argument. Microsoft had tablet computers long before Apple did, too.