Author Topic: BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread  (Read 48097 times)

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Offline Stan

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OK, the "BitShares PTS2" proposal is now off the table and I'm closing this thread.

This discussed the potential of using a "soft fork" to allow the market to choose whether a protoDAC which comes with its own built-in promotion fund could out-compete one that didn't.

While intellectually gratifying (to me anyway), it turned out to be too hard to explain and would undoubtedly lead to more confusion if we continued to advocate it. 
It failed to achieve a consensus, so it fails.
The winning post argument here was simply "Keep it simple, stupid."

See the newest thread for the current default proposal and let's move on to debate the merits of that.

Thanks for everyone's energetic input.

:)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 01:18:15 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Troglodactyl

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Stan, do you understand the difference between a mathematically controlled logarithmic inflation and what you are proposing? If you know anything about the time-value relationship of money you would not try to equate an instantaneous frontloaded 15% centralized inflation scheme with what PTS currently has. It does amount to a theft of 15% from current shareholders. In other words, if I sold my coins tomorrow or next month we both know I would not incur the full 15% inflation. AGS contributors were promised a stake in FUTURE DACS, not the upgrade of PTS (which they knew about prior to investing in AGS). This hypothetical objection from AGS holders is a fiction, and is perfectly staged to grab 15% of our equity in the name of "fairness." I expected more from you guys.

No, I'm just trying to suggest that some of the negative posters move on; if you don't get it now, then I don't think the next few months are going to be pleasant for you and you may want to look for something that meets your needs better. The most important thing about this PTS2 proposal (aside from the needed upgrade that will eliminate mining inflation) is that we need a PR blitz as these DACs come out. If you're content to sit on your PTS/AGS and hope you will be successful, I think you're missing the point that we need a large influx of additional people and investment into this ecosystem. The fact that you think the 15% dilutes your value is extremely short-sighted when you consider how many magnitudes greater that value could be if we can use that 15% to create a buzz.

So call it what it is then - a donation. And feel free to donate 15%, heck even 50% of your PTS. Just don't force the rest of us to do it and don't try to call it "fair" by equating it to the mining block reward.

AlphaBar is making excellent points here, and I agree with them.  When I first read the plan I emailed Stan with many of the same concerns.  I think they're making an error in this case, but I'm still convinced that Stan and the rest of the Invictus team are honestly trying to act fairly and to benefit the AGS and PTS communities with solid products.  I have a lot of respect for the III team, and this disagreement doesn't change that.  If they can't be convinced of the flaws in the idea of redistributing the "remaining" stake in PTS, the next best option is that they redistribute it transparently to minimize negative impact, and efficiently to maximize active network growth.

Offline fuzzy

In response to Adam B Levine, Mess, Werneo and Stan as central communication manager you cannot burn the 15% (I know it's silly to even suggest otherwise, but Adam B Levine was not suggesting proof of burn of the PoW-PTS, because that obviously would not work) nor give them to current PTS-holders for the reasons that have been explained already repeatedly like in the links below.

Some remarks that have now been repeated several times on this forum even on different threads really makes me wonder if people have a clue what they are talking about, but that doesn't seem to inhibit them from making accusations or voicing their opinion and drowning out the real arguments. How do you propose Invictus to just magic the old pts out of existence? If they could actually do that what are you even investing in? What's the point of projects like this if some central group had that kind of power? Invictus can't force the market to chose their way and if the market choses against Invictus DPoS-PTS, they will have to honor that choice. Click on the links below if you don't get what I'm talking about.

It's getting a bit tiresome to see the same thing explained over and over again and the discussion just looping back to the same misconceptions as if nothing happened, seems a forum is not a good way to discus this.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.msg59085#msg59085
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.msg59209#msg59209
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4636.msg59213#msg59213
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4658.msg59215#msg59215
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4648.msg59274#msg59274

Back to suggestions, I've come up with a 3-rd one and this one is a winner for sure.

Give it all to me and then I'll flaunt around showing how rich I became off of bitshares that'll be sure to reach the mainstream media. I could even organize a public poll on this forum for the most ridiculous way to do it. For example moon Putin / Obama or another public figure of choice depending on what'll get most attention with bitshare millionare tattooed on my butt-cheeks. Or crash a high-profile / high-society dinner party with a couple of pornstars with enough doubly inflated real-estate to have readable advertisementspace for the words "You could be here if you were a bitshare millionaire". I'm considering  the slogan "I'm a bitshare millionaire and I don't care", but I'm open to suggestions.

Hate to choose favorites but your comments are so often on point that I feel like tattooing bitshares on my ass and mooning Putin/Obummer w/ you.
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline Agent86

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I think alphaBar has a valid point of view.  I think if PTS holders as a whole don't find a value in using the funds for marketing and don't think it's a good idea, than it may be best not to.  If it upsets even a minority it has the potential to be damaging.

We expected PTS to take 1 year to reach 2 million and we are a little over halfway into it with 85% mined.

The "time value of money" damage due to getting 15% inflation all at once in July vs getting the same 15% inflation over the next few months would generally be considered insignificant (fraction of 1%)

For most investments you'd be much better off this way if you can avoid a 1% inflation forever afterward.

However, if there were significant DAC families that took snapshots in the near future, it might end up being true that the upgrade dilutes PTS holder stake in those DACs more than it would have in the original estimated PTS inflation schedule.

A lot of us think that the marketing could generate a huge return but if that is not the sentiment among PTS holders we may be best to respect it.

Offline liondani

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Bitshares PTS is up at least 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

All newbies care for the investors here and wish they invest ... elsewere. Am I missing something?
Do you really believe they are invested on PTS ?

I wish, I have invested as little as you 'dani' and posted more, so I have more weight in your eyes!


I just observed lately a lot of new accounts that comment mostly in a pessimistic way...
I know you are heavy-invested and well known  8)


Bitshares PTS is up at least 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

All newbies "care" for the investors here  :P and wish they take their investments ... elsewere. Am I missing something?
Do you really believe they are invested on PTS ?

We have newbies calling others newbies? That is funny.

Yes I am a newbie too  :)
You caught me  :)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:39:44 pm by liondani »

Offline gamey

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Totally agree when i heard this news.

Come on. for months 3i was struggling making one thing, which is Bitshares X wallet, to work.

And yet, they are doing great job on ok, i haven't done this, but i wanna do that, oops, maybe that, coz that is a great idea.
ok, forget it, i wanna do that, coz that sounds neat.

if chinese is ur main market. ill tell you what, you are losing faith in china market by having more ideas without a fact you have something finished.

Even a six year old chinese boy will hate when you just have so many idear without putting even one solid product in reality.

Can we have Bitshares X working, then ideas? Gosh! why is this so hard

Do you realize how screwed up PTS currently is ?  I've seen AGS donations that were purchased ~6-8 hours before the deadline and didn't get their transaction listed because the block time was that long. 

THe problem is protoshares was never meant to be a longterm currency so it didn't get attention in the form of updates and now is showing its age.

 They are correcting this problem by using the same technology they have been working on.  (PTS Snapshot -> Working DPOS coin)  This is an EFFICIENT use of resources.

I can't really speak about what is fair or what isn't... but your characterization is a bit misguided.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline NewMine

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Bitshares PTS is up at least 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

All newbies "care" for the investors here  :P and wish they take their investments ... elsewere. Am I missing something?
Do you really believe they are invested on PTS ?

We have newbies calling others newbies? That is funny.

Offline NewMine

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Sorry to jump in to the discussion late, but I think this discussion of the 15% unmined PTS is absurd (mathematically, economically, and morally). The inflation of PTS to account for this 15% would normally occur logarithmically over a period of YEARS and has not yet taken place. If I were to sell my shares now, these non-existent PTS would have no inflationary impact on my coins. Furthermore, the amortization schedule of the 15% is fixed. You are now proposing to frontload all of that into a marketing fund and to allocate it to I3. Guess what happens when you do that? I incur ~5-10 years of monetary inflation from you overnight. This may be overshadowed by the price bump of a working DPOS release, but that is irrelevant.

The idea that AGS holders should be compensated for the PTS upgrade is also bogus, and here is why:

1) The holders of AGS knew that the PTS chain would be upgraded to the finalized I3 protocol prior to their investment in AGS.
2) The license agreement of AGS investment was for the development of future DACs, not for the application of the protocol to PTS.

There should be a snapshot of PTS and we should transition to DPOS with a 1:1 mapping of PTS1 -> PTS2. What you guys are doing here does not inspire confidence.

I agree with you about the claims of unfairness to AGS. It is totally bogus.  This is a false claim to immediately get the AGS crowd to defend this decision. It totally does not benefit AGS holders but it also does not hurt them.

The market has priced in what PTS is worth with a 2 million share float which is the current trading price.

Offline alphaBar

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No, I'm just trying to suggest that some of the negative posters move on; if you don't get it now, then I don't think the next few months are going to be pleasant for you and you may want to look for something that meets your needs better. The most important thing about this PTS2 proposal (aside from the needed upgrade that will eliminate mining inflation) is that we need a PR blitz as these DACs come out. If you're content to sit on your PTS/AGS and hope you will be successful, I think you're missing the point that we need a large influx of additional people and investment into this ecosystem. The fact that you think the 15% dilutes your value is extremely short-sighted when you consider how many magnitudes greater that value could be if we can use that 15% to create a buzz.

So call it what it is then - a donation. And feel free to donate 15%, heck even 50% of your PTS. Just don't force the rest of us to do it and don't try to call it "fair" by equating it to the mining block reward.

Offline Simeon II

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Bitshares PTS is up at least 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

All newbies care for the investors here and wish they invest ... elsewere. Am I missing something?
Do you really believe they are invested on PTS ?

I wish, I have invested as little as you 'dani' and posted more, so I have more weight in your eyes!

Offline donkeypong

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No, I'm just trying to suggest that some of the negative posters move on; if you don't get it now, then I don't think the next few months are going to be pleasant for you and you may want to look for something that meets your needs better. The most important thing about this PTS2 proposal (aside from the needed upgrade that will eliminate mining inflation) is that we need a PR blitz as these DACs come out. If you're content to sit on your PTS/AGS and hope you will be successful, I think you're missing the point that we need a large influx of additional people and investment into this ecosystem. The fact that you think the 15% dilutes your value is extremely short-sighted when you consider how many magnitudes greater that value could be if we can use that 15% to create a buzz.

Offline liondani

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Bitshares PTS is up at least 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

All newbies "care" for the investors here  :P and wish they take their investments ... elsewere. Am I missing something?
Do you really believe they are invested on PTS ?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:13:09 pm by liondani »

Offline alphaBar

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Bitshares PTS is up at least 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

Of course this has everything to do with the development of DPOS and nothing to do with taking 15% from current shareholders and giving it to I3. By your logic we should make it 50% or 75% - maybe this will increase the price of PTS even more!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 12:13:24 am by alphaBar »

Offline Simeon II

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Bitshares PTS is up about 15% in the market since they announced this. If you don't like this upgrade, then why not sell now?

It would have been up 50% if they have not announced the 15% dilution (with the same %15 grabbed by I3).
And sadly, we still hope the community response will make them change their plans…(or is it a lost cause Dan/Stan?)



Offline liondani

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Wow, I wonder why PTS is up 31.6% on coinmarketcap.com?

Back in the Top Ten!

Any theories?

market manipulation?  :P


PS Back in the Top Seven for "24h volume"
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:23:46 pm by liondani »