Author Topic: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come  (Read 2244 times)

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Offline Unshakeable Convoy

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 05:57:01 am »
Thank you, Everyone for the warm welcome! It feels homey already.

Quote from: xeroc
Thanks for the offer. I am pretty sure this community will not disappoint you :)

Having a good community is an integral part of an online success. I am looking forward to bringing people together and producing magic.
Testing the DPOS method is a great example. Despite the hiccups, the community is relentless and ready to help out. I love it!

Quote from: Stan
Welcome.  Great name!   :)

Thank you, Stan! Perhaps one day we may even find what it means, and why is it using the less common spelling of the word Unshakable.

Quote from: toast
I like the way you think! It may very well be the case that Ethereum is a better platform for your use case, but AGS/PTS is about acquiring a network, not paying for software. That said, if your DAC design genuinely generates demand for its tokens, it's unlikely Ethereum is what you want.

Toast, I have great respect and always love reading your responses and ideas. I hope you will provide numerous peer reviews of my ideas as we go along and help me crystalize them.

---

Right now I am focused on reducing the scope of the project. It is way too ambitious, which is a great thing, but too many moving parts increase the risks.

I am still at early design stage, however many pieces have become more apparent.

So what is it? In short - a decentralized platform, allowing less technical people to plan, design, fund and create their own decentralized apps.

Ethereum is probably the closest competitor, and in fact I think so far they are best positioned for running decentralized apps.

However, I have a few problems with Ethereum's approach:

* They are too focused on building a low level script language, not a major issue, but why not use a language that people are already familiar with? It will naturally bring a lot more developers.
* The contract script lives inside the address, leaving no options to fix a bug if one is discovered later. Or if an improvement is proposed.
* They still plan to do mining and are inventing their own hashing algorithm, I'm not sure that will really buy them much.

Ultimately I like what Ethereum does, however I feel that aside from introducing a more complex script, it is still an incremental improvement over Bitcoin.

So what are my goals? An All in One Decentralized Operating System. (wow that's a mouth full)
But most important thing is to make sure developers are attracted not just with financial incentives, but enjoyable development experience, that is key.

* Secure Communication (Most of these are already a solved problem, but I'm looking for an all-in-one solution)
* Name registration (This is alternative to Keyhoteee and BitShares DNS, we may honor them, but needs to be within the same system for other reasons)
* Project/Asset registration (honor registered .com domains, so there are no disputes from big companies about impersonation)
* Decentralized Discussions/Forums
* Collaborative Tools - Whiteboards, Project Management / Planning Tools, etc. (More on this later, but the techniques used to manage the project itself will be embedded in some of those tools)
* Quality Data Providers/Voting/Agents (e.g. if within the system itself we have knowledge of the market value of BTC/USD, we could issue assets based on it)

* Resource Based Economy Encouraging Production (Services, Products offered for the crypto unit)
* Distributed Digitally Signed Storage
* Custom Services and Protocols
* Distributed Computing
* Job Marketplace (full time positions, severance agreements, etc.)

* Instantly Liquid Startup Platform
* Risk Reduction Protecting Our Friendly Backers
* Robust Project Planning
* Assurance Contracts and Full Time Positions
* Trading Platform
* Sound Financial Derivatives

* Explore Alternative Approaches to Double Spending Problem, Try to Make Block Chain & Mining Obsolete
* Constantly Evolving Rapid Application Development Environment
* Kernel & Written in Platform Independent Bitcode
* All LLVM Compatible Programming Languages Are Automatically Supported (Write in any language, runs on all platforms seamlessly)

Right, so obviously I am very interested in finding a minimal viable product, that will serve as a foundation for the rest.

The idea is as follows:


*** Users ***

You use a master key, you log in to any device, and all of your stuff is there, your apps, your configuration, all comes from the cloud except for it's encrypted.
Challenges here are - if you lose your key you are SOL, done. Very dangerous. However if we use a mobile device app, or a hardware device, this should secure the system.

Once an app is installed, it will be limited as to what it can do, just like on an iPhone the OS asks for permission.

It will ask:

"CHESS wants deposit 500PTS in a game session with the following parameters: 30 min session, color: random. Approve? YES | NO"
This is where I recommend all private key signing to happen outside of a regular PC - do it on a cell phone app, hardware device, or a separate PC/laptop.
It is far too dangerous to run all these apps on the same machine where the private keys live.

We need to make this IDIOT PROOF! Many people including highly technical folks have lost coins because let's face it - software SUCKS.

Let's be the Apple of Cryptocurrencies / Decentralized OS. Let's focus on the USER and QUALITY.


*** Developers ***

Have an idea for an app, want to start a team?

* Start prototyping in a test environment.
* Invite others to help (art, code, music, release master, etc.)
* Describe high level milestone goals.
* Describe how you will generate dividents
* Apply to be listed as "In-Development" project


*** Investors ***

* Explore projects in development and decide which ones look interesting.
* Only pledge and commit to an "option to buy" defined by the developer. (e.g. at start of project that is 1% as it gets closer to first release target date it becomes 50%)
* On release date buy for the amount based on the option. (These are just examples, developers can write their own schedule to attract investment)
* Projects are instantly liquid which means you can move to a different investment at any point you like
* Once project is up and running, you reap the benefits


So far, I have decided that instead of building a fully fledged platform independent decentralized operating system.
I will focus on something we all need in this fast paced stressful life.

ENTERTAINMENT! We need games!

So as an example with the first release we will provide full source code for games that are provably fair and fully decentralized.

* CHESS
* BACKGAMMON
* YACHT Z
* CARD GAMES
* GAMES POPULAR IN ASIAN CULTURE (I WILL NEED HELP WITH THIS AS WELL AS TRANSLATION)


At the moment I am working on the core of this idea: how to setup a game session as a decentralized consensus contract, that could involve N players, upon completion amounts are distributed based on consensus and rules following inside the game sessions itself.
This is not easy AT ALL. But so far I have found that no matter how ridiculously hard it is, it is not impossible.

Note that the idea is to solve this ONCE AND FOR ALL, so people who can develop web games in JavaScript and have good Art skills can just contribute games, without having to worry about the unnecessarily complex underlying infrastructure of a crypto asset.


Finally, this will be an epic experiment, and I be aware that this is very ambitious, so it is high level of uncertainty. However there is also extremely high level of passion and tenacity to see this through to the end.
I say this because I don't want to raise people's hopes high and set them for disappointment.

With that, I think I am on the right track to reduce the scope without compromising the long term features of the platform.

Let's rewrite how the Internet works! Join me on the journey. :)

Offline ssjpts

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 06:08:31 am »
cool!!!!!!!
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 06:54:41 am »
cool!!!!!!!
very .. cool!!!!!!
+5%

//EDIT: That is hell-lot of work
Quote
So what are my goals? An All in One Decentralized Operating System.
I like that part. And I share your concerns about Ethereum. (mining, contract/address, ...)
Quote
* Explore Alternative Approaches to Double Spending Problem, Try to Make Block Chain & Mining Obsolete
This sounds very interesting, however, I am afraid you will not be able to do without a blockchain (sure without mining, but not without blockchain). There is as of today no other way known to prevent double-spending (IMHO)

Also +5% for adding a decentralized kickstarter!

Quote
Finally, this will be an epic experiment
+5%
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:06:06 am by xeroc »
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Offline Unshakeable Convoy

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 07:34:46 am »
You can do a hierarchical tree instead of a chain and severely reduce the bloat of a block-chain, without compromising the security of the network.
These are longer term goals however.

Short term goals are:

Be able to auto-update a node, without having to recompile it. All changes will however go through a thorough testing and if there are concerns, voting will either prevent or allow new changes to come in. This scares most people when I mention the idea. However it makes the platform FULLY decentralized. I doubt this would ever happen, but what if github goes down one day? How do you send an important security update?

Ability to create, test, register, distribute and execute an app in a secure environment. In short an APP is defined by it's states and protocols. It is effectively an AGENT, and could use a form of DPOS when human authority is required.

local proxy, so an APP can have a frontend in the browser. I prefer to find another way, like using WebKit, but I think from security stand-point, for now it's best to stick with browser.

So effectively a proxy will be able to send/receive messages to/from the platform. A JavaScript in a web page would be able to use those to write any APP people want.

In fact an APP designer, could design the protocol and write the backend, while 5 different people could provide different versions of the UI for it.

There might even be a way to charge for the frontend APP implementations, while the backend protocol/designers will profit from taking fees in the contract itself.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 07:50:22 am »
Quote
You can do a hierarchical tree instead of a chain and severely reduce the bloat of a block-chain, without compromising the security of the network.
These are longer term goals however.
Have a link where I can read more about it?

Quote
Ability to create, test, register, distribute and execute an app in a secure environment. In short an APP is defined by it's states and protocols. It is effectively an AGENT, and could use a form of DPOS when human authority is required.
Good point
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Offline Unshakeable Convoy

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 09:08:58 am »
Have a link where I can read more about it?

http://blog.ethereum.org/2014/05/27/what-if-ethereum-lived-on-a-treap-or-blockchains-charging-rent/

Worth reading. Although I believe it can be improved quite a lot.

Offline xeroc

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Offline liondani

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 10:19:24 am »
Welcome.  Great name!   :)

... and great avatar also!
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Offline liondani

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2014, 10:28:43 am »
Welcome.  Great name!   :)

... and great avatar also!

and of course (the most important), great vision!
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline Unshakeable Convoy

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2014, 07:57:48 am »
I am back and I need some input from the community...

In principle what I want to do would be best if it is not pre-mined, pre-sold. I have come up with a method to do decentralized mining, where no power is ever wasted. You could mine an asset for a month, and you will still be rewarded for it. This should keep the system completely decentralized. I plan to use a model where % is put away for development cost. That % will gradually go down over time. Nothing is set in stone, but I expect that to start at 10% and gradually go down to 1%. The benefits are that it gives an incentive to the development team to create value for this new platform, instead of relying on getting funded in other established cryptos. I will lead the effort and want to build a development team that is not driven so much by greed, but driven by ambition and creating value for the world.

That said, I still want to find a way to involve the Bitshares community. Would it be considered honoring the social contract, if 20% of the incoming development funds are given to AGS/PTS holders? I don't want to pre-allocate 20% as this will be a fully mined effort for the first few stages of the project.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2014, 08:21:50 am »
Sorry to disappoint you, but I stopped reading at ‘not pre-mined’.

We build companies (being decentralized companies does not change that fact they are still companies) and in this context all of them are pre-mined (i.e. pre-existing) before they go to the public.



BTW  ‘not pre-mined’ is (mostly was) a good marketing pitch for certain parts of the crypto community… sorry to tell you that you will not get too many fish bating on this old lure here!

Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Unshakeable Convoy

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2014, 08:52:43 am »
Sorry to disappoint you, but I stopped reading at ‘not pre-mined’.

We build companies (being decentralized companies does not change that fact they are still companies) and in this context all of them are pre-mined (i.e. pre-existing) before they go to the public.

BTW  ‘not pre-mined’ is (mostly was) a good marketing pitch for certain parts of the crypto community… sorry to tell you that you will not get too many fish bating on this old lure here!

At the moment I am interested in constructive criticism. If you disagree with something, please offer an alternative, given the requirements. Also you did not even attempt to answer the very specific question I have. Let's focus on creating value here, shall we?

What fish and what lure are you referring to? I am not seeking funding, I have my own funding for this project. The goal is to seek as close to equal distribution as possible for users during the first stages of the project. As well as prevent centralization of power every step of the way, especially when voting gets involved. Decentralized mining provides some of that. What I have come up with, will let every person with a solid video card be able to mine, without having to join a mine pool. Decentralized mining works much closer to real world mining - when others mine a bigger chunk, yours doesn't disappear.

No pre-mine in the context of my project has a completely different meaning. In any case, please focus on the bigger picture, and don't get caught in arguing semantics, it is an unnecessary distraction.

So that said, I am still finding a positive in your strangely negative post. I will just use my own term, as this system works very differently - Decentralized Mining. I'll refrain from using no pre-mine, etc. that appears to give people not only the wrong impression, but in this case a gag reflex.

Cheers, and thank you for your input!

Now back to business - I'm seeking ideas on how to reward AGS/PTS given the restriction above.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2014, 09:42:45 am »
Sorry to disappoint you, but I stopped reading at ‘not pre-mined’.

[EDIT] Most of the post removed...

At the moment I am interested in constructive criticism. If you disagree with something, please offer an alternative, given the requirements. Also you did not even attempt to answer the very specific question I have. Let's focus on creating value here, shall we?

What fish and what lure are you referring to? I am not seeking funding, I have my own funding for this project. The goal is to seek as close to equal distribution as possible for users during the first stages of the project. As well as prevent centralization of power every step of the way, especially when voting gets involved. Decentralized mining provides some of that. What I have come up with, will let every person with a solid video card be able to mine, without having to join a mine pool. Decentralized mining works much closer to real world mining - when others mine a bigger chunk, yours doesn't disappear.

No pre-mine in the context of my project has a completely different meaning. In any case, please focus on the bigger picture, and don't get caught in arguing semantics, it is an unnecessary distraction.

So that said, I am still finding a positive in your strangely negative post. I will just use my own term, as this system works very differently - Decentralized Mining. I'll refrain from using no pre-mine, etc. that appears to give people not only the wrong impression, but in this case a gag reflex.

Cheers, and thank you for your input!

Now back to business - I'm seeking ideas on how to reward AGS/PTS given the restriction above.

I am in no position of authority regarding the final say here. Those were just my initial thoughts…
On the other hand after such analyses of mine on other projects, people more closer to the real power have come and said they see the potential innitially… digging deeper they have  come to the same conclusions as me, and have just used technology appropriate terms to explain where they see the problem.
So take my comments for what they are …very insightful  investor!

PS
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 03:17:16 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Ambitious DAC and Optimistic About the Amazing Things to Come
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2014, 10:18:59 am »
Sorry to disappoint you, but I stopped reading at ‘not pre-mined’.

We build companies (being decentralized companies does not change that fact they are still companies) and in this context all of them are pre-mined (i.e. pre-existing) before they go to the public.



BTW  ‘not pre-mined’ is (mostly was) a good marketing pitch for certain parts of the crypto community… sorry to tell you that you will not get too many fish bating on this old lure here!
Come on tony. Because of 2+1/2 words in his text which you dont like because they dont fit into the DAC analogy which in the end is only an analogy you begin your post with "sorry to disappoint you"? That for sure is not very encouraging. Some motivated and smart individual found his way to the bitshares toolkit. Don't discourage him by saying that what he attempts doenst fit some narrow definition. You have a responsibility or at least you can have an effect on what developers use the bitshares toolkit.
I think a weakness of this community is it's arrogance (at times). Domsch just went to NXT because we didnt appreciate what he did https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2943.msg57257#msg57257
Quote
Some people have a need to tear things down rather than build things up.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5222.msg68833#msg68833
Don't take my criticism too hard. It is also not personal at all! I just don't see the point of acting like that and I am a bit concerned if that is the forum's standard. 

I am sure that the OP is not taking it too serious though. I think you get the most from the community if you propose something specific enough and maybe something that even is comparable / in contrast with any concept from invictus or a specific proposal that is utilizing a invictus concept ( and taking it further).