My friends, gather closely.

[luckybit]

The reason sharedrops that "simulate mining" work is because all of the early adopters etc are miners.  Most of the die-hard types sitting on forums have at least dabbled in mining and believe it to be "fair".  There is nothing special about mining that sells a distribution except the existing adopters have mentally bought in.

They've put their capital into mining equipment so now they're a middle man selling hashes and taking the profits and paying the electricity providers.  This is not much different from paying for shares directly, people just need to have it explained to them. 

Mining is also labor intensive so it keeps large capital from showing up and just buying in.  This is probably the one biggest thing people need to avoid in the longrun, the perception that the guy with the most money at the start ends with the most money.  Lots will disagree with it, but this is probably the biggest perception at play when people don't like POS.  An "unfair" distribution.  Mining is only marginally more fair because it requires labor to set it up.

The point is to attract interest from miners and bring them into the Bitshares ecosystem. I think this is a good way to do that.

Depending on the hashing algorithm or kind of mining some people might think they'll have more advantages. They'll spend more of their hashing power in the Bitshares ecosystem which is good. There will be plenty of new coins which are ASIC resistant at least for a while and people will mine them (also some coins will be for storage, bandwidth, etc).

Long term you can replace mining with any number of serious games which are based on attention. Viewing advertisements could be proof the person is interested and generate enough revenue if we wanted it set up like that. The point is that the sharedrop or faucet has to be based on proof of interest, the serious game (ritual) doesn't matter too much as long as it's not so trivial that a bot can do it or that it can be gamed.

So think of the serious game as just the game people play to show interest and participation. Some people are expert miners so they know that game but an ASIC miner will not have an advantage over a storage miner. There will be many different kinds of mining and that diversity for a while will keep it fair enough until we reach a point where the industry matures or it gets centralized.

This is worth further discussion because I basically agree with you on the "pay-to-win" problem. Newcomers will not think it's fair unless new serious games are continuously devised.

[gamey]

The reason sharedrops that "simulate mining" work is because all of the early adopters etc are miners.  Most of the die-hard types sitting on forums have at least dabbled in mining and believe it to be "fair".  There is nothing special about mining that sells a distribution except the existing adopters have mentally bought in.

They've put their capital into mining equipment so now they're a middle man selling hashes and taking the profits and paying the electricity providers.  This is not much different from paying for shares directly, people just need to have it explained to them. 

Mining is also labor intensive so it keeps large capital from showing up and just buying in.  This is probably the one biggest thing people need to avoid in the longrun, the perception that the guy with the most money at the start ends with the most money.  Lots will disagree with it, but this is probably the biggest perception at play when people don't like POS.  An "unfair" distribution.  Mining is only marginally more fair because it requires labor to set it up.

[fuzzy]

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution).  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips-- (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.)
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

  fuzz you da man !!!     godspeed

thanks unimerico!  Luckybit and I have had many conversations that brought us to this kind of solution.  oh, and btw, if that is your picture you sure are a beautiful lady.  j/k j/k...just had to..

[bitbro]

Sharedrops are already proven to be successful when they simulate the sociology and psychology of mining. For example Blackcoin distributes itself through a mining pool. All we would have to do is add the lottery to the mining pool and let people mine for tickets in the lottery.

An alternative is to let people mine by buying the tickets. Isn't that how we got where we are?  Either we mined for protoshares with computation or with dollars. In either case only the people who really wanted the shares got it.

I think when you're targeting a mining community then 5% isn't enough. It should be 50/50 or 60/40 favoring us with 10% for developers. Ideally though you want 50/50 if you can and never favor the less interested community over the more interested community.

Mining communities want the perfect mining pool or a serious game which simulates the ideal mining effect. I think we are at the stage now where we need more psychologists and sociologists and less technicians. Technicians don't do marketing and Bitcoin obviously had the sociology and psychology right in the beginning.

We need to recreate the same psychological and sociological impacts. If we cannot do this then we cannot expect to grow like Bitcoin.

Great point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution).  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips-- (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.)
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

well put, bitbro   

You're too kind,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[unimercio]

Sharedrops are already proven to be successful when they simulate the sociology and psychology of mining. For example Blackcoin distributes itself through a mining pool. All we would have to do is add the lottery to the mining pool and let people mine for tickets in the lottery.

An alternative is to let people mine by buying the tickets. Isn't that how we got where we are?  Either we mined for protoshares with computation or with dollars. In either case only the people who really wanted the shares got it.

I think when you're targeting a mining community then 5% isn't enough. It should be 50/50 or 60/40 favoring us with 10% for developers. Ideally though you want 50/50 if you can and never favor the less interested community over the more interested community.

Mining communities want the perfect mining pool or a serious game which simulates the ideal mining effect. I think we are at the stage now where we need more psychologists and sociologists and less technicians. Technicians don't do marketing and Bitcoin obviously had the sociology and psychology right in the beginning.

We need to recreate the same psychological and sociological impacts. If we cannot do this then we cannot expect to grow like Bitcoin.

Great point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution).  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips-- (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.)
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

well put, bitbro   

[unimercio]

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution).  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips-- (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.)
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

  fuzz you da man !!!     godspeed

[racingdude]

NHZ, a NXT clone made by one of the long-time bitshares forum members, is actually doing precisely this (as well as providing gateways for other DACs).  Just so you know

That's cool, but I don't do NXT clones
It would be the same as going thru Bitcoin for me, one extra step.
I don't think there are so many NHZ users who would buy BitShares on NHZ, but there are enough NXT users who love to exchange some of their NXTs for BitShares, the market is there, someone just needs to tap into it.

[fuzzy]

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

May I suggest my humble opinion and say that some NXTers would appreciate if there was a direct way to but BitShares on NXT Asset exchange. Likewise, if NXTs could be purchased on BitShares decentralized exchange, that would also be brilliant.

Communities would intermingle and then free competition would decide the fate of both. Without those direct gateways to exchange NXT and BitShares, users of both systems have to go through Bitcoin, which doesn't help neither NXT nor BitShares, and makes Bitcoin more useful.

NXT and BitShares must establish their own exchange rate. This will happen sooner or later anyway, but I guess it would be nice if someone reputable made that happen. I would love to buy some BitShares directly for NXT without having to exchange to Bitcoins first, it's an additional inconvenient step.

NHZ, a NXT clone made by one of the long-time bitshares forum members, is actually doing precisely this (as well as providing gateways for other DACs).  Just so you know

[racingdude]

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

May I suggest my humble opinion and say that some NXTers would appreciate if there was a direct way to but BitShares on NXT Asset exchange. Likewise, if NXTs could be purchased on BitShares decentralized exchange, that would also be brilliant.

Communities would intermingle and then free competition would decide the fate of both. Without those direct gateways to exchange NXT and BitShares, users of both systems have to go through Bitcoin, which doesn't help neither NXT nor BitShares, and makes Bitcoin more useful.

NXT and BitShares must establish their own exchange rate. This will happen sooner or later anyway, but I guess it would be nice if someone reputable made that happen. I would love to buy some BitShares directly for NXT without having to exchange to Bitcoins first, it's an additional inconvenient step.

[bitbro]

Sharedrops are already proven to be successful when they simulate the sociology and psychology of mining. For example Blackcoin distributes itself through a mining pool. All we would have to do is add the lottery to the mining pool and let people mine for tickets in the lottery.

An alternative is to let people mine by buying the tickets. Isn't that how we got where we are?  Either we mined for protoshares with computation or with dollars. In either case only the people who really wanted the shares got it.

I think when you're targeting a mining community then 5% isn't enough. It should be 50/50 or 60/40 favoring us with 10% for developers. Ideally though you want 50/50 if you can and never favor the less interested community over the more interested community.

Mining communities want the perfect mining pool or a serious game which simulates the ideal mining effect. I think we are at the stage now where we need more psychologists and sociologists and less technicians. Technicians don't do marketing and Bitcoin obviously had the sociology and psychology right in the beginning.

We need to recreate the same psychological and sociological impacts. If we cannot do this then we cannot expect to grow like Bitcoin.

Great point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fuzzy]

Sharedrops are already proven to be successful when they simulate the sociology and psychology of mining. For example Blackcoin distributes itself through a mining pool. All we would have to do is add the lottery to the mining pool and let people mine for tickets in the lottery.

An alternative is to let people mine by buying the tickets. Isn't that how we got where we are?  Either we mined for protoshares with computation or with dollars. In either case only the people who really wanted the shares got it.

I think when you're targeting a mining community then 5% isn't enough. It should be 50/50 or 60/40 favoring us with 10% for developers. Ideally though you want 50/50 if you can and never favor the less interested community over the more interested community.

Mining communities want the perfect mining pool or a serious game which simulates the ideal mining effect. I think we are at the stage now where we need more psychologists and sociologists and less technicians. Technicians don't do marketing and Bitcoin obviously had the sociology and psychology right in the beginning.

We need to recreate the same psychological and sociological impacts. If we cannot do this then we cannot expect to grow like Bitcoin.

So funny...bitcoin did it through sharing...

[Tuck Fheman]

[luckybit]

Sharedrops are already proven to be successful when they simulate the sociology and psychology of mining. For example Blackcoin distributes itself through a mining pool. All we would have to do is add the lottery to the mining pool and let people mine for tickets in the lottery.

An alternative is to let people mine by buying the tickets. Isn't that how we got where we are?  Either we mined for protoshares with computation or with dollars. In either case only the people who really wanted the shares got it.

I think when you're targeting a mining community then 5% isn't enough. It should be 50/50 or 60/40 favoring us with 10% for developers. Ideally though you want 50/50 if you can and never favor the less interested community over the more interested community.

Mining communities want the perfect mining pool or a serious game which simulates the ideal mining effect. I think we are at the stage now where we need more psychologists and sociologists and less technicians. Technicians don't do marketing and Bitcoin obviously had the sociology and psychology right in the beginning.

We need to recreate the same psychological and sociological impacts. If we cannot do this then we cannot expect to grow like Bitcoin.

[fuzzy]

Auroracoin example of big Sharedrop vs. alternative - 

If someone said to me - 'Iceland is ripe for bootstrapping a crypto-currency, they've recently experienced huge economic upheaval and still have capital controls in place.  They also only have a small fairly wealthy population of only 320 000 that would be easy to effectively target.' - I would agree.

But when they said we're making 'AuroraCoin' and giving 50% away in Sharedrops - I just laughed. Some (On this forum) also got excited about the guys bootstrapping Silicon Valley with a 50% Sharedrop coin,  but again I find the idea crazy. (Then people say oh if only they'd done the Sharedrop this way or that way, or supported them like this, it would have been better, but I'm still mostly sceptical.)   

If however someone said - we're making 'ICE-Coin'

Instead of a benefactor getting half the developers equity and trying to make a price floor as you're suggesting, I would have - 'We have a benefactor who's given us $250 000 for 5% equity.'
$50 000 is being used to purchase 10 'ICE-Coin' branded ATM's & rent space in 10 of the most popular locations around Iceland for a year.
$50 000 is being spent renting two billboards, one on the main road from the airport and one in the main high street advertising Ice-Coin for 12 months.
$100 000 is being targeted at incentivising smaller retailers, hotels and travel agents to trial 'ICE-Coin' payments and advertise at their store fronts for a year. So far we have Z, B & Y on board...
$50 000 is being spent on creating two Icelandic videos, one a 30 second advert which will be played on radio & TV for three months.
We're  giving 10% of the equity to Hagar, one of Iceland's biggest retailers in exchange for agreeing to trial ICE-Coin as a payment option for the next 12 months. 
2.5% is being made available via a faucet  and we're going to give 1.5% equity a year to charitable & popular Iceland based causes based on shareholder votes. 

40% of equity is being divided between AGS & PTS as we are using their DPOS Blockchains and Toolkit & they provide a strong distributed base of shareholder support and ensure that our benefactor and retailers who are given equity don't have a stake that is big enough to manipulate or control the currency. We are announcing a snapshot to take place in one month from PTS allowing other interested parties to get on board and sell their PTS afterwards if they wish. The remaining 40% of the equity is being released via delegates over 5 years to be directed at activities shareholders feel is best suited to developing ICE-Coin.

Now you actually have some sort of a currency that might be able to bootstrap itself in Iceland that I would consider buying.

Even better news if Ice Coin launched at the same time as AuroraCoin -
'Hey guys some people think you can bootstrap a currency by giving away 50% of the equity! Obviously this will result a fairly worthless crypto but hopefully it will make some people aware of crypto-currency so the advertising will certainly be useful to us! In fact we're offering a service encouraging people to claim & quickly sell their free Auroracoins while they still have value and exchange those free Kr. into ICE-Coin - A currency which actually has a strong stable shareholder supported value, is useful within Iceland and has an effective business plan to grow and benefit Iceland.'

I know most people here who favour sharedrops agree most of the previous attempts have gone about it the wrong way, but I'm just tying to communicate the idea that shareholder equity can be spent in ways other than sharedrops (though I'm not against reasonable faucets & charity of up to 5% total equity.) & the amount that would be wasted on 'free marketing' can be put to better use. And personally I would be more fearful of forks that use shareholder equity to implement a credible business plan vs. giving most of it away when AGS & PTS already gives you a strong supportive base and can bring in 100's/1000's of new people via a PTS Snapshot announcement.

The key is creating incentives for other cryptos to compete for sharedrops within the bitshares ecosystem (and making it historical "big deal")...and doing it in a sustained manner over time that will bring about a sustained change in habits beneficial to bitshares as a whole.  This way those who win feel like they are part of something meaningful that they deserve to be part of and feel a deeper respect for the "sharedrops" they receive.

[D4vegee]

Auroracoin example of big Sharedrop vs. alternative - 

If someone said to me - 'Iceland is ripe for bootstrapping a crypto-currency, they've recently experienced huge economic upheaval and still have capital controls in place.  They also only have a small fairly wealthy population of only 320 000 that would be easy to effectively target.' - I would agree.

But when they said we're making 'AuroraCoin' and giving 50% away in Sharedrops - I just laughed. Some (On this forum) also got excited about the guys bootstrapping Silicon Valley with a 50% Sharedrop coin,  but again I find the idea crazy. (Then people say oh if only they'd done the Sharedrop this way or that way, or supported them like this, it would have been better, but I'm still mostly sceptical.)   

If however someone said - we're making 'ICE-Coin'

Instead of a benefactor getting half the developers equity and trying to make a price floor as you're suggesting, I would have - 'We have a benefactor who's given us $250 000 for 5% equity.'
$50 000 is being used to purchase 10 'ICE-Coin' branded ATM's & rent space in 10 of the most popular locations around Iceland for a year.
$50 000 is being spent renting two billboards, one on the main road from the airport and one in the main high street advertising Ice-Coin for 12 months.
$100 000 is being targeted at incentivising smaller retailers, hotels and travel agents to trial 'ICE-Coin' payments and advertise at their store fronts for a year. So far we have Z, B & Y on board...
$50 000 is being spent on creating two Icelandic videos, one a 30 second advert which will be played on radio & TV for three months.
We're  giving 10% of the equity to Hagar, one of Iceland's biggest retailers in exchange for agreeing to trial ICE-Coin as a payment option for the next 12 months. 
2.5% is being made available via a faucet  and we're going to give 1.5% equity a year to charitable & popular Iceland based causes based on shareholder votes. 

40% of equity is being divided between AGS & PTS as we are using their DPOS Blockchains and Toolkit & they provide a strong distributed base of shareholder support and ensure that our benefactor and retailers who are given equity don't have a stake that is big enough to manipulate or control the currency. We are announcing a snapshot to take place in one month from PTS allowing other interested parties to get on board and sell their PTS afterwards if they wish. The remaining 40% of the equity is being released via delegates over 5 years to be directed at activities shareholders feel is best suited to developing ICE-Coin.

Now you actually have some sort of a currency that might be able to bootstrap itself in Iceland that I would consider buying.

Even better news if Ice Coin launched at the same time as AuroraCoin -
'Hey guys some people think you can bootstrap a currency by giving away 50% of the equity! Obviously this will result a fairly worthless crypto but hopefully it will make some people aware of crypto-currency so the advertising will certainly be useful to us! In fact we're offering a service encouraging people to claim & quickly sell their free Auroracoins while they still have value and exchange those free Kr. into ICE-Coin - A currency which actually has a strong stable shareholder supported value, is useful within Iceland and has an effective business plan to grow and benefit Iceland.'

I know most people here who favour sharedrops agree most of the previous attempts have gone about it the wrong way, but I'm just tying to communicate the idea that shareholder equity can be spent in ways other than sharedrops (though I'm not against reasonable faucets & charity of up to 5% total equity.) & the amount that would be wasted on 'free marketing' can be put to better use. And personally I would be more fearful of forks that use shareholder equity to implement a credible business plan vs. giving most of it away when AGS & PTS already gives you a strong supportive base and can bring in 100's/1000's of new people via a PTS Snapshot announcement.

 

[Empirical1]

Auroracoin example of big Sharedrop vs. alternative - 

If someone said to me - 'Iceland is ripe for bootstrapping a crypto-currency, they've recently experienced huge economic upheaval and still have capital controls in place.  They also only have a small fairly wealthy population of only 320 000 that would be easy to effectively target.' - I would agree.

But when they said we're making 'AuroraCoin' and giving 50% away in Sharedrops - I just laughed. Some (On this forum) also got excited about the guys bootstrapping Silicon Valley with a 50% Sharedrop coin,  but again I find the idea crazy. (Then people say oh if only they'd done the Sharedrop this way or that way, or supported them like this, it would have been better, but I'm still mostly sceptical.)   

If however someone said - we're making 'ICE-Coin'

Instead of a benefactor getting half the developers equity and trying to make a price floor as you're suggesting, I would have - 'We have a benefactor who's given us $250 000 for 5% equity.'
$50 000 is being used to purchase 10 'ICE-Coin' branded ATM's & rent space in 10 of the most popular locations around Iceland for a year.
$50 000 is being spent renting two billboards, one on the main road from the airport and one in the main high street advertising Ice-Coin for 12 months.
$100 000 is being targeted at incentivising smaller retailers, hotels and travel agents to trial 'ICE-Coin' payments and advertise at their store fronts for a year. So far we have Z, B & Y on board...
$50 000 is being spent on creating two Icelandic videos, one a 30 second advert which will be played on radio & TV for three months.
We're  giving 10% of the equity to Hagar, one of Iceland's biggest retailers in exchange for agreeing to trial ICE-Coin as a payment option for the next 12 months. 
2.5% is being made available via a faucet  and we're going to give 1.5% equity a year to charitable & popular Iceland based causes based on shareholder votes. 

40% of equity is being divided between AGS & PTS as we are using their DPOS Blockchains and Toolkit & they provide a strong distributed base of shareholder support and ensure that our benefactor and retailers who are given equity don't have a stake that is big enough to manipulate or control the currency. We are announcing a snapshot to take place in one month from PTS allowing other interested parties to get on board and sell their PTS afterwards if they wish. The remaining 40% of the equity is being released via delegates over 5 years to be directed at activities shareholders feel is best suited to developing ICE-Coin.

Now you actually have some sort of a currency that might be able to bootstrap itself in Iceland that I would consider buying.

Even better news if Ice Coin launched at the same time as AuroraCoin -
'Hey guys some people think you can bootstrap a currency by giving away 50% of the equity! Obviously this will result a fairly worthless crypto but hopefully it will make some people aware of crypto-currency so the advertising will certainly be useful to us! In fact we're offering a service encouraging people to claim & quickly sell their free Auroracoins while they still have value and exchange those free Kr. into ICE-Coin - A currency which actually has a strong stable shareholder supported value, is useful within Iceland and has an effective business plan to grow and benefit Iceland.'

I know most people here who favour sharedrops agree most of the previous attempts have gone about it the wrong way, but I'm just tying to communicate the idea that shareholder equity can be spent in ways other than sharedrops (though I'm not against reasonable faucets & charity of up to 5% total equity.) & the amount that would be wasted on 'free marketing' can be put to better use. And personally I would be more fearful of forks that use shareholder equity to implement a credible business plan vs. giving most of it away when AGS & PTS already gives you a strong supportive base and can bring in 100's/1000's of new people via a PTS Snapshot announcement. 

[Empirical1]

Hi Charles, thanks for the reply, yes it was very witch hunty/paranoid 

I didn't realise the benefactor would be public and tbh I misread '50% of the developers stake' to mean up to 50% of the entire stake.

So I interpreted it as you were saying that the DAC would have the appearance to the market of having a high valuation and being widely distributed when really there's a clandestine whale who would now control a majority share.

(Once there are many independent third party DAC's being released their strategies won't reflect on the whole BitShares ecosystem anyway.)

Usually if I'm going to post an accusation or something negative on a forum I sleep on it first, probably would have been wise in this case. Apologies.

No worries, I've adopted a thicker skin policy for the Bitshares forum. I think everyone- including me- needs to take a break from the past. It's unhealthy.

Cool  I actually do like reading your stuff even if I disagree, because I think you do make good intelligent thought provoking points.

For example I actually like the idea of transparent price floors in general. I remember when I first got into Bitcoin I felt long term supporters could help make Bitcoin more stable by instead of hoarding, selling a small % into the price rises to provide more liquidity, lessen volatility and then place buy orders for double the amount of BTC they just sold at 1/2 the price. (This floor would be re-inforced because others wanting to buy cheap BTC would place their buy orders above the strong floor, thereby creating a 'superfloor' - that would really help support a new volatile currency. In the worst case that the floor was broken it would just mean long term supporters ended up with more BTC than they had before. So kind of win-win.)

Your application of it here via the benefactor to soak up the Sharedrops  or suggesting NXT could have bought up Sharedropped coins that were sold on the cheap, both highlight the problem I have with significant Sharedrops.

For me any marketing spend should have a positive net return, so when you give away free samples you should be expecting enough of the people who received them to become buyers, enough to at least offset the cost of the other free samples. (Sharedrops) But both your benefactor and NXT statements highlight that you believe what I do which is that in the short term at least - Significant Sharedrops will have big price suppressive effects on the DAC.  (I guess you believe the longer term benefits in terms of perceived fairness and broader awareness base will slowly create more buying support for it vs. a competitor. )

However while many are fearful of a fork that has big Sharedrops, I am fearful of fork that does almost no Sharedrops. If someone gave me a sample of company who's share price was declining in value  because of the amount of share-dropping (Which we both seem to agree would happen in the short term) & I could see there was another DAC offering the exact same product that had a stable or rising share price then it would be for me illogical to hold on to a declining share price DAC when I could sell that for shares in a stable/rising company selling the same product. (So in effect a DAC that sharedropped would just be giving free advertising to a fork of a DAC that didn't - I'll try put in an example of how I think it could be applied at in my next post with Auroracoin.) 

However there are a lot of people that share some of your views, Fuznuts, Luckybit, DA (-Stan) etc. I also don't think there are any plans yet to do a straight DPOS based currency coin yet which is what your suggestion was & I think that idea is a good one! & while I think most DAC's are more like businesses, with a DPOS currency there is perhaps a greater idea of maximum fairness & value to be gained from maximum alt-coin community support,  so if there was ever a place to try out some of these ideas I think you've hit on the right one and I think it is definitely worth giving it a shot.

[fuzzy]

Fellas, about the OP.... 

rofl. 

We need a -5% icon.   

 

[Simeon II]

p.s. @simeonII  what you mean by "Hostile Takeover?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeover#Hostile_takeovers

[gamey]

Fellas, about the OP.... 

rofl. 

We need a -5% icon.   

[fuzzy]

p.s. @simeonII  what you mean by "Hostile Takeover?"

[fuzzy]

I think Charles is pushing something that would severely distract from the roll out plan and short term vision.  I don't like backseat driving from someone not in the car.  Any bullshit share drop distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road.

I wouldn't think anything of it without the back-story but there does seem to at least be the potential for corporate sabotage 101 in this thread.  If you wanted to seriously damage BitShares your best bet would be to try to influence BitShares into doing something with one product that could severely damage the credibility & ethics of the whole brand...

You got that right bro, serious “bullshit,” what is this asshole thinking:

So why not just distribute amongst a basket of currencies and use it as a hook? If the coin starts to get market value, then people have a stake in protecting it and will naturally become surrogates. The keys are properly engineering the basket, the value bootstrap and consistent release cycles. The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).  The whole thing really just seems like a wasted opportunity to me.   

LOL !! Don’t make us laugh ass! 
Marketing “hook ? basket? bootstraps? release cycles?”
“legitimate contender to bitcoin!”  ?? wtf?
Don’t sweat it team, I’ll handle this troll from here, you guys can get back to work:


Stop trying to steal our coins and our code Mofo Troll Hoskinson (if that really is your real name)!  You better back the Chuck up with that “free hippy love and coins communism crap.”  We are the BitShares Community, and we don’t give anything to anybody (especially those less fortunate) for free, see.  Even if it means that BitShares obtains global adoption and the price rises 100x like Bitcoin did in last year, we will never donate even 1% of our precious coin holdings because we do not care about making money on our investment.  Our mission is to make sure that NOBODY makes any money off  BitShares, especially us!  “Legitimate contender to bitcoin?” We don’t want to compete with bitcoin! Get it! WE DON’T WANT PUBLICITY OR EXPOSURE ChuckFace!  Especially GLOBAL EXPOSURE ! This is our party, and we will cry because we want to!  It’s not that we don’t understand that marketing = math.  It’s simply because we don’t need the money because we are already in the global 1% of the wealthiest human beings ever to walk this pitiful planet.  And we don’t care about getting wealthier; we just don’t want to see anybody else having a good time on OUR planet with OUR coins because of OUR code!  We are the global fun police, so please put the jointdown Chas.  And no smiling or marketing math allowed here troll. 


You better leave this place now, and never show your face here again because here’s what happened to the last chuck-head that tried STARTING A THREAD about airdropping coins because it is an extremely simple and cheap way to distribute millions of units of OUR code to people throughout the globe who already own computers and have at least one “Bitcoin-crypto-type” software program pre-loaded into their machines that they are very familiar with (We don’t want to market our BitShares to people who comprehend modern cryptocurrency theory or have computers you numbskull!):


Spolier alert, we told him to go chuck himself!

I like the idea of honoring namecoin holders with a small percent and adding a half life to their position. 
I think that adding a half-life to all genesis block positions to encourage people to download the wallet and start securing the network / finding bugs.   Perhaps something as simple as losing 10% per month if you do not claim your funds in the genesis block.
If you wait a while you still get something, but eventually the free give aways end.
I would then recommend that you give some to everyone with BTC and NMC....   this process works better if you have an easy to use wallet on launch and can use the news to generate solid first impression.   
Perhaps a better alternative is to give them 10% but not let them sell for 6 months.  Then they will see it grow and be less likely to sell.

A lot of discussion on airdrops has been going on recently and I would like to add a new twist. 

1) I like the half life concept... 50% drop every month until balance is below 1 BIP.
2) Unclaimed air-drop funds should be sent to developers.
3) Altcoin owners are likely more valuable than BTC owners because BTC-only owners are usually altcoin snobs.
4) I recommend honoring all of the top 10 bitcoin-based alt-coins proportional to market cap.  This will get the widest possible airdrop.
5) Don't honor coins with large pre-mines...

If you set this up right, the developers can avoid any accusations of 'pre-mine' because everyone had an opportunity to claim it, unclaimed funds go to devs... this also solves the problem of dead coins being honored.

Ha HA! HAA ha!
What a loser that dude is!  Right fellas?!  And what a megalomaniacal ego this ass must have to call himself:

“ The Bytemaster”


Ha HA! HAA ha!  As if this assmaster knows anything about math or the magic of marketing!  Tell us oh great (byte)MASTER who controls us centrally how do you plan to distribute your decentralized application!  You are not the master here Dan, because WE are the controlling members of your community, remember you sold your soul to US, and now you are nothing but the byteslave!  So shut up with those marketing ideas.  What are you trying to do, market your code to the world!  HA HA over our dead BitShares!  You will do what your told.  And we are ordering you to go against your heart, soul, feelings, and intuition.  We are ordering you to Seppuku!


“byteMASTER”

 
I bet the BitShares community is supposed to follow this MASTER.  Well guess what? We the BitShares community are united in our steadfast disdain over the bird-brain ideas of this “Bytemaster!” because we all uniformly agree that his airdrop marketing ideas are:

bullshit

Which just happens to be the meme of our new BitShares T:


BitShares X: “ hey planet earth, pay no attention to the bytemaster”


So screw Dan’s plans.  Don’t you know that math geniuses must be inept at marketing it’s the law of Tesla.


http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/in-1897-nikola-tesla-tore-up-a-contract-that-would-have-made-him-the-worlds-first-billionaire/


We the BitShares community are the same group of people that prevented Tesla from realizing his dreams by keeping him poorly funded until he died (then we just stole his ideas).


http://www.thrivemovement.com/nikola-tesla-s-lab-burned


We are the Marconi gang, the ones who burned down Tesla’s workshop in order to bring our radio product to the market first:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi


So you see Chuck, we don’t want your innovative marketing ideas, because they are identical to Dan’s ideas who we know for a fact must be a marketing idiot.  We never wanted Dan’s ideas to gain exposure just like all the Tesla free energy invention plans equipment and drawings we stole before we burned his lab down.  Now you are forced to use dirty nuclear energy, when you could have had free energy this whole time you suckers!  So just like with Nikola, we want to watch Dan fail because we are haters (fun police).  DOWN WITH DAN’S MARKETING PLANS!!  Mwo ho ho ha ha ha ?!


See that Charles?  May I call you Charles?  Nice to meet you.  Sorry for all the “chuck off” jokes, I’m a comedian (and not a very good one I freely admit).  I’m DA, and I speak marketing, but the BitShares Community does not.  Not even Dan who has convinced them to donate to DPOS, can learn these old dogs.  And yet “we” (you, Dan, and I) are the enemy because we 3 intuitively agree:

We are taking donations to be used however we decide to.  Currently, we are proposing an airdrop to Bitcoin/Keyhotee/Dogecoin/Ether holders:
Bitcoin - 35%
Faucet - 10%
Keyhotee - 35%
Peercoin - 10%
Ether - 10%

Ther reason we are using the term "faucet" is because the total donation pool that we receive will probably be negligable compared to the overall market cap.  It won't matter if everyone dumps the shares, we are only looking to plant seeds that will hopefully inspire thousands of adopters.

Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...

See what  I mean Charles? It’s like you are speaking another language when you talk marketing around these parts.  And Dan is helpless because he has shackled himself to his schizophrenic community who trusts his math skills one day, but then they call him stupid the next.  But what can you do, that LaMancha man is in love with his community even though they want to see him fail because they don’t support his ideas or they think that they are smarter than him.  It can only be one of those two exact reasons.  I just don’t care to find out which one is the true reason.


Dan is married to this community who wants to see him fail, and we are his Bachelor buddies who hate watching him get wacked.  Dan knows that you are correct Chuck, and he has even told his wife face to face that your idea is the truth of reality (and that marketing is just math after all):


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=455106647969436&set=vb.408134445999990&type=2&theater


But she insists on zero charitable giving.  And what can I say, he loves her.  Either way, the three of us are wasting our time on this issue obviously.  It’s been noted here that I’ve wasted forty something posts campaigning for my “singular vision” (I wish I had time to dig up that post), and coincidently, so have you now, actually, so, but, uh….


Hey….


Wait a minute……!!!!


DA has spent 40 posts begging to Airdrop to Ethereum, and now the famous Charles H himself shows up out of the blue begging for free BitShares…..


Wait for it…..


…


I give up!  You guys got me!  I am Charles Hoskinson the Etherman himself!!!!  Why do you think that I was begging you guys to airdrop to Ethereum until my banished breath!  You selfish BitBastards have finally flushed out your true enemy!


I am your enemy! 


I am your competition!


I almost tricked you into giving away your precious BitShares!


But you stayed true to your beliefs, and you win!


Now you know who I REALLY AM!   


…


…


…


Check this out Chuck.  I wanted to leave this post at that, but these fools would have wasted Dan’s time talking and spamming his workshop lab message board with People Magazine-type rumors concerning Bennifer’s new thrife, and “who this DA character REALLY is once and for all!”:

Now is Decentralized Application BM?

I know DA is dan but honestly I was hoping it was Satoshi Nakamoto before I realized

No.  DA is not bytemaster.
 

You're right that DA is not bytemaster, but he probably is Dan Larimer

Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...

DA is a charade for sure, but let me spoil the fun so we don't waste breath; DA is dan
 

And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Empirical1, if you read between the lines here, you will see....

No way dude  They are not the same person. I'm 99%+ sure on that.

You see Chuck, we can teach them for days, and still nothing gets through.  I’ve tried explaining it to them like this:  Dan, Chuck, and I are like that guy at the party who is always talking about what he is going to do, and how he plans to do it.  The difference between us, is that when you are hungover the next day, we are out there executing our plans.


I also preach to them basic stuff like:  BitShares was designed by Dan to be about the JOURNEY to La Mancha, not about what type of horse you plan on riding in on.  But again..” woosh” over their heads.

Go ahead, you try Charles.  I’ve taken the liberty of giving you the canned peanut gallery response

DA, this is a powerful idea and I support the first mover concept. But it would need to be defined to the acceptance of this community

Great initiative. However, this donation campaign funded by community holders won't get off the ground.

I REALLY DON'T sink in on this . Too skeptical .  Im beginning to question the real motive behind  this AIRDROP.

i don't like the idea of an airdrop

Why would it be a good idea to give Bitshares to people for nothing?  I don't see why it's suddenly cool to give Bitcoin owners something for nothing.

As one of bitshare stockholder I hold my rights to reject this idea. A BIG no for me.

What is the point? It seems almost like a tax and it makes no sense.  There should be ways for people to earn a stake, but don't give it away for free.
 

I've noticed that most people who hate taxes/welfare etc are mostly upset that others get something free that they worked hard for.  There are lots of valid arguments against my idea.  None of which are "don't do it because it is cool" or "people need to work for it".

Here at BitShares, we like to control people and tell them what to do.

For instance:  “Everyone must work and pay for BitShares.”  “Nobody may give any away for free.”  We claim to be against centrally controlled tyranny, but secretly, we adore it.:
“Hey you over there!”  “No giving away charity coins or helping of anybody unless you make them PAY first!”  That was the motto created on our first BitShares T-Shirt (want to buy one?).

BitShares:  Telling others what they can’t do since we learned to Tapatalk.

wth?  i know for a fact people Tip each other in this forum...why?  Because up to (and not yet including) this last tip I received for runnin gthe Mumble server was given to those who help me on a regular basis.  Do I tip people for free?  nope...but I would.  as far as airdrops?  no clue why they are considered a bad thing...if done strategically.  Sadly some HUGE bag holders are the most against this

Although I have been a bit frustrated sometimes that not everyone in the community comprehends the value of giving a currency to the people you would like to use (and value) it, I have found nothing yet to give the impression that Dan has ever wanted to be a Dictator.  This post mostly made no sense as it went back and forth both deriding and praising Byte"slave" and really I find little value in it. 

Well guys, going to get back to work trying to help our little community

[Simeon II]

I will venture to disagree with DA on one major point. I dare do so as Charles H's view seem to match my DPOScoin ideas almost one for one.  It is no marketing DA, it is plain and simple:

Hostile Takeovers

...

[Simeon II]

DA is not resting in peace after all...

Sent  not using Tapatalk.

[bitbro]

DA also might be Stephen Colbert


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bitbro]

If DA/Dan of the Future wants to airdrop, faucet, whatever, I am in, because that guy is my dude and he writes like Shakespeare


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[charleshoskinson]

Hi Charles, thanks for the reply, yes it was very witch hunty/paranoid 

I didn't realise the benefactor would be public and tbh I misread '50% of the developers stake' to mean up to 50% of the entire stake.

So I interpreted it as you were saying that the DAC would have the appearance to the market of having a high valuation and being widely distributed when really there's a clandestine whale who would now control a majority share.

(Once there are many independent third party DAC's being released their strategies won't reflect on the whole BitShares ecosystem anyway.)

Usually if I'm going to post an accusation or something negative on a forum I sleep on it first, probably would have been wise in this case. Apologies.

No worries, I've adopted a thicker skin policy for the Bitshares forum. I think everyone- including me- needs to take a break from the past. It's unhealthy.

[fuzzy]

- Lottery players as a 'general' demographic are instant gratification junkies so the avg. one won't donate.

That is a good point. Which is precisely why increasing the value proposition while coupling it with the marketing could be a winner...

Thanks for the detailed responses Luckybit & Fuznuts, I'll look at those points a bit later. It sounds interesting & I guess this is a separate DAC idea to the main BitShares Lotto roll out though? If so then I don't think there's any harm in trying good original ideas like this.

Wasnt actually supposed to be a separate DAC so much as a way to make a lottery that, in the initial phase brings in other strong coins into a "family" in a way that exemplifies collaboration while also establishin the initial behavioral patterns required to maximize the number of long-term users. 

The faucets will dry up, but new DAC development would then likely occur from multiple competing cryptos and they would also be able to donate to the faucet. 

As far as it not sounding like a Lotto DAC, I can see how someone could think that, but in fact that all depends on the reward amounts over time.  There is no reason (I can think of) why the Lotto DAC could not be a more "fair" game of chance DAC than the rest while also actually having params set in sich a way as to ensure it is more of a Lotto as opposed to the faucet alone.

[Empirical1]

Hi Charles, thanks for the reply, yes it was very witch hunty/paranoid 

I didn't realise the benefactor would be public and tbh I misread '50% of the developers stake' to mean up to 50% of the entire stake.

So I interpreted it as you were saying that the DAC would have the appearance to the market of having a high valuation and being widely distributed when really there's a clandestine whale who would now control a majority share.

(Once there are many independent third party DAC's being released their strategies won't reflect on the whole BitShares ecosystem anyway.)

Usually if I'm going to post an accusation or something negative on a forum I sleep on it first, probably would have been wise in this case. Apologies.
 

[charleshoskinson]

What the hell are you talking about?
You just publicly say – We strongly believe in the value of our company. To prove that we will use up to that and that dollar amount to buy back our shares from everybody willing to sell.
What PR nightmare?

I know right. Hey market, I believe in this product and will buy as much as I can at this price....MARKET MANIPULATION!!!!!!

[Simeon II]

I wouldn't think anything of it without the back-story but there does seem to at least be the potential for corporate sabotage 101 in this thread.

If you wanted to seriously damage BitShares your best bet would be to try to influence BitShares into doing something with one product that could severely damage the credibility & ethics of the whole brand...

The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin.

. Which they wouldn't.
Both those seem to involve suggestions for potentially deceiving the market via potential price or perceived fairness manipulation. Obviously that would be a PR trap/nightmare if there was any indication BitShares used and perhaps even contemplated them as a strategy
But in future when there are fair share-drops and high natural valuations, if enough people respond positively to other parts of Charle's ideas in this thread then it may be enough to for detractors to link back to,  to suggest that BitShares has seriously considered and therefore may be going about business in an underhanded way. ('They're only doing sharedrops to be perceived as fair and then buying up big stakes for nearly free', or that the 'DAC's have high prices because BitShares has whales artificially supporting them'  etc.)

It's probably nothing, but then again it could be...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rRZdiu1UE (Just the Beasties boys sabotage song)

Both those seem to involve suggestions for potentially deceiving the market via potential price or perceived fairness manipulation. Obviously that would be a PR trap/nightmare if there was any indication BitShares used and perhaps even contemplated them as a strategy


What the hell are you talking about?
You just publicly say – We strongly believe in the value of our company. To prove that we will use up to that and that dollar amount to buy back our shares from everybody willing to sell.
What PR nightmare?

[charleshoskinson]

I think Charles is pushing something that would severely distract from the roll out plan and short term vision

Lol, you guys are funny. I was merely exploring the idea of a second team funded from an investor building a new coin based upon DPOS and Titan tech as a way to independently test the underlying technology

Wealthy benefactor here lost me....why a wealthy benefactor for a coin that could be launched without any such ties?

It's an investment in a sense. Make a loan of say 500k to a new development team with some terms similar to a convertible bond. Either the team repays the principle with interest or surrenders 50 percent of their stake in the new currency.

Charles have you invested in the Bts ecosystem?  Last you mentioned it, you had no dog in the fight. I don't like backseat driving, but I much less prefer back seat driving from someone not in the car than from a passenger. 

If you're a concerned investor let us know

I have no investment in the Bitshares ecosystem.

How do you determine which bitcoin, litecoin, nxt, mastercoin or counterparty holders want it if you don't make them prove their interest?

They suddenly have an asset with real market value. Combined with some hype generated from a marketing surge promoting the new technology and strength of the team, you'd probably create more demand than available supply. 

Both those seem to involve suggestions for potentially deceiving the market via potential price or perceived fairness manipulation. Obviously that would be a PR trap/nightmare if there was any indication BitShares used and perhaps even contemplated them as a strategy. Which they wouldn't.

Deceiving the market by convincing someone to take a long position? You're very funny. There would initially be a large supply of the new currency on the market given the distribution mechanism proposed. The price floor idea is to have a buyer agree to soak up the supply because he or she believes in the fundamentals of the currency. This act would prevent a death spiral from the initial sell-off. Eventually the surplus supply would clear and if marketing is properly done, demand will rapidly pick up.

Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road

I'm inclined to disagree. One of the largest barriers to adoption for a new currency is that the incumbency have little or no incentive to move unless an event forces them out of the ecosystem like ASICs did to the GPU miners- who then moved to Litecoin creating the price surge. The idea of giving bitcoin, et all holders a stake is that they now feel less threaten with the rise of a new currency- they own some of it.   

[Empirical1]

I think Charles is pushing something that would severely distract from the roll out plan and short term vision


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldn't think anything of it without the back-story but there does seem to at least be the potential for corporate sabotage 101 in this thread.

If you wanted to seriously damage BitShares your best bet would be to try to influence BitShares into doing something with one product that could severely damage the credibility & ethics of the whole brand...

The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin.

Both those seem to involve suggestions for potentially deceiving the market via potential price or perceived fairness manipulation. Obviously that would be a PR trap/nightmare if there was any indication BitShares used and perhaps even contemplated them as a strategy. Which they wouldn't.

But in future when there are fair share-drops and high natural valuations, if enough people respond positively to other parts of Charle's ideas in this thread then it may be enough to for detractors to link back to,  to suggest that BitShares has seriously considered and therefore may be going about business in an underhanded way. ('They're only doing sharedrops to be perceived as fair and then buying up big stakes for nearly free', or that the 'DAC's have high prices because BitShares has whales artificially supporting them'  etc.)

It's probably nothing, but then again it could be...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rRZdiu1UE (Just the Beasties boys sabotage song)

[Empirical1]

- Lottery players as a 'general' demographic are instant gratification junkies so the avg. one won't donate.

That is a good point. Which is precisely why increasing the value proposition while coupling it with the marketing could be a winner...

Thanks for the detailed responses Luckybit & Fuznuts, I'll look at those points a bit later. It sounds interesting & I guess this is a separate DAC idea to the main BitShares Lotto roll out though? If so then I don't think there's any harm in trying good original ideas like this.

[fuzzy]

The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

The key is to understand that this coin would be net value creation. The Bitshares X stakes have already been set in stone. A DPOS coin would allow for testing of the underlying technology without any impact on the original Bitshares launch plan. Give part of the distribution to the developers and the rest amongst the bitcoin, litecoin, nextcoin, mastercoin and counterparty holders.

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin.

Charles have you invested in the Bts ecosystem?  Last you mentioned it, you had no dog in the fight. I don't like backseat driving, but I much less prefer back seat driving from someone not in the car than from a passenger. 

If you're a concerned investor let us know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Going to sound crazy coming from me, but it im glad for this discussion.  Suppose this is a chance to just let people prove themselves...with their own unique contributions.  I LIKE that he is bringing up these topics and interested...like ive always said...id love to feel like I can trust the motive.
Guess we'll see in time bitbro.  It would be wonderful if those motives prove to be aimed at providing value to the ecosystem (especially if he has no dog in the game). 

On another note...with the lotto DAC, it would be entirely possible to award the winners with a DPOS version of their coin, let them customize and  test?

[bitbro]

I think Charles is pushing something that would severely distract from the roll out plan and short term vision


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fuzzy]

The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

The key is to understand that this coin would be net value creation. The Bitshares X stakes have already been set in stone. A DPOS coin would allow for testing of the underlying technology without any impact on the original Bitshares launch plan. Give part of the distribution to the developers and the rest amongst the bitcoin, litecoin, nextcoin, mastercoin and counterparty holders.

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin.

Wealthy benefactor here lost me....why a wealthy benefactor for a coin that could be launched without any such ties?

[bitbro]

The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

The key is to understand that this coin would be net value creation. The Bitshares X stakes have already been set in stone. A DPOS coin would allow for testing of the underlying technology without any impact on the original Bitshares launch plan. Give part of the distribution to the developers and the rest amongst the bitcoin, litecoin, nextcoin, mastercoin and counterparty holders.

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin.

Charles have you invested in the Bts ecosystem?  Last you mentioned it, you had no dog in the fight. I don't like backseat driving, but I much less prefer back seat driving from someone not in the car than from a passenger. 

If you're a concerned investor let us know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[luckybit]

The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

The key is to understand that this coin would be net value creation. The Bitshares X stakes have already been set in stone. A DPOS coin would allow for testing of the underlying technology without any impact on the original Bitshares launch plan. Give part of the distribution to the developers and the rest amongst the bitcoin, litecoin, nextcoin, mastercoin and counterparty holders.

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin.

How do you determine which bitcoin, litecoin, nxt, mastercoin or counterparty holders want it if you don't make them prove their interest? Make them ask for or apply to receive it in some capacity so you can be sure everyone who gets it is a person who wants it.  How better to do that then to sell them tickets and let the lottery determine the rest?

Otherwise if its just dropped to people who don't care it's doomed to fail.

[charleshoskinson]

The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

The key is to understand that this coin would be net value creation. The Bitshares X stakes have already been set in stone. A DPOS coin would allow for testing of the underlying technology without any impact on the original Bitshares launch plan. Give part of the distribution to the developers and the rest amongst the bitcoin, litecoin, nextcoin, mastercoin and counterparty holders.

Find a wealthy benefactor to bootstrap the development and to set a price floor during the launch of the coin receiving 50 percent of the developer's stake as collateral. Seems like a pretty easy way to bootstrap a legitimate competitor of bitcoin. 

[fuzzy]

- Lottery players as a 'general' demographic are instant gratification junkies so the avg. one won't donate.

That is a good point. Which is precisely why increasing the value proposition while coupling it with the marketing could be a winner.  Now mind you...the funds would be donated not necessarily by lotto players, but instead by communities and big boss hogs with substantial holdings. Why? Because it serves as advertising for all of them too...and in a way that makes it easier for lazy users to access without having to go to multiple faucets in order to get a stake.  This would become one of the central DAC hubs for people who want to play and get a chance of winning a nice satchel of "consolation coins".

- It looks like everybody wins a lot with that model but I suspect only one coin will and it may not even be the coin that wins 20%. (By example LottoShares gave 10% to PTS and 10% to MMC which seemed fair and was probably coming from a fair place, but because MMC is only a $70k CAP if you like the LottoShares DAC you would have done better buying MMC to gain access to it. PTS would have lost by supporting and promoting it before the snapshot. Similarly in your model, whichever coin
gets the biggest % relative to their market CAP is the one that would support your diamond system I 'think', other coins may lose by supporting/promoting it.)

Good point, that could potentially be fixed by allowing them to "rollover" past donations into other DACs, meaning that 5th place in the lotto DAC could accrue donations over multiple DACs, and at the snapshot of each DAC, the top winners are reflected/honored in genesis block. 5th place in the last DAC might be 4th or 3rd in the next. At least thats my take.

- Lottery players want the coin with the biggest jackpots, so they will play with the highest CAP/Jackpot coin, a lotto coin that kept most of the shares for a strong supportive community would have a better starting CAP than one that was giving away too much free equity imo.

rationale noted.  As far as betting for the coin with the higher market cap---betting will carry a reward equal to the risk (a higher mkt cap coin is like a higher denominated chip in a real world casino--say $500 chip as opposed to betting at a lower stakes $10 table)
As for equity I would suggest they are not giving it away for free: indeed, they are receiving a fair, easy and fun means of distributing (and advertising) their token(s) in a way that is similar to mining, but requires only that someone has A skill and the willingness to use that skill to earn cash (which can then be turned into new "mining" chances). In return for the investment/donation, most of which are burned, they receive a stake in bitshares diamond gaming version of their tokens-called chips-constantly advertising their coin (CONSTANT advertising is effective advertising) as well as bitshares diamonds (diamondshares?).  Their coins have also now been honored by invictus in a way that only bitcoin/pts was previously honored (more good PR for both sides). If we are talking about fairness, it doesn't get better imho. Maybe im wrong...

- In general if you're starting a crypto-currency the idea of fairness is very important, but as we move into DAC's & businesses it's going to be mainly about just having enough initial distribution to avoid manipulation and control.  (Shareholders want profit and a coin that spends it's equity on development, marketing, customer service etc. will be a better business than one giving too much of it's equity away imo.)

Along with donating equity, they are also contributing to the capital needed to make bitshares diamond gaming a high echelon, polished experience (development).  This high end experience will be associated with all tokens that helped fund development, and they gain from the buzz of being coupled with bitshares (Marketing).  Invictus also gains a great deal by getting another opportunity to teach a broader crypto community about snapshots (customer education/service).

Also, it can be thought of as an investment in a project that is beginning to gain traction even with some of its most staunch nay sayers.  Most coins have to pay bounties and do a great deal of coordination just to get a faucet up, running and stocked. A second barrier is that it is very unlikely a user will go to a faucet for .5 PPC, but if he has a chance to potentially win a 500PPC, 789NMC,  etc... secondary reward from playing slots with diamonds, it is more likely he/she will show up (and play with diamondshares)  It is also more likely that advertising people who win big and in a way that is much fairer than bitcoin will bring more users (that is wanted, right?).  Plus storing all your coins in a bitshares wallet also helps protect the average user because Dan and the team worked hard to provide security best practices by default. So now you have a one stop shop where users can go to play and also diversify their portfolio of "altcoins".

However that's why I like BM's 10/10 80% released via delegates model or even a 25/25 50% via delegates model, because shareholders can see which ideas work best and move towards doing more of that for a lot of these coins.

I like BMs thoughts on this too, but I dont see how it is going to bring in allies from the altcoin world.  If anythig I see wars over DPOS VS POW.  And bitcoin has whales and much more funding than invictus...not sire if it is a battle worth fighting alone.  Charles is right when he says ally with strength...how better to than to have a competition that awards the strongest bitcoin competitors?

Edit: Also if you were targeting lotto players and gamblers, we're close to the point where crypto-currency is becoming accessible enough that rather than targetting the sub-demographic of gamblers within alt-coin communities, you'd probably do better awarding it to members of gambling/lottery sites & forums.

Agreed here.  The one thin that realky stands out about this DAC, however, is its ability to literally serve invictus as a means of creating buzz and demamd for stake in upcoming projects. As for bringing in other gambling site members--any people using standard online gambling would be very interested in significantly increasing their profits...if only they learn a little about crypto.  Of course, then again...the coins those newbies will see and grow to trust early on will likely be the coins that have their own chips.  If I am a holder of any of the winning coins, I am happy to know that new users of this service will see my coin as trustworthy just like bitcoin. 
Also, domt forget...many potential developers come from tjese higher market cap communities...so interestimg them and including their coins will likely serve as a talent recruitment tool that could very likely turn I to new Dacs developed by altcoin devs, but still honoring pts/ags.

I also assume AGS/PTS gets a starting stake in that coin. So any other community would ask why would we donate money to help build a coin you are getting for free?

Because they are getting a stake in DiamondShares along with PTS/AGS, and playing with Diamondshares rewards users with a diversified number of active coins.

[luckybit]

I think these things can be worth a try, but some issues I see with that

- Lottery players as a 'general' demographic are instant gratification junkies so the avg. one won't donate.

Miners bought mining rigs to try to win the Bitcoin lottery system. They expected mining to be reasonably profitable and they wait for the price to go up. So miners are our demographic (not lottery players). It just so happens that the ideal serious game for mining might resemble a lottery but it doesn't mean we should market it as a traditional lottery. In a traditional lottery there is no consolation prize so this is more like a faucet with jackpot effects. So it's got lottery effects but it's not designed to function as a lottery but as a decentralized "fair" distribution.

- It looks like everybody wins a lot with that model but I suspect only one coin will and it may not even be the coin that wins 20%. (By example LottoShares gave 10% to PTS and 10% to MMC which seemed fair and was probably coming from a fair place, but because MMC is only a $70k CAP if you like the LottoShares DAC you would have done better buying MMC to gain access to it. PTS would have lost by supporting and promoting it before the snapshot. Similarly in your model, whichever coin
gets the biggest % relative to their market CAP is the one that would support your diamond system I 'think', other coins may lose by supporting/promoting it.)

These are good points.

- Lottery players want the coin with the biggest jackpots, so they will play with the highest CAP/Jackpot coin, a lotto coin that kept most of the shares for a strong supportive community would have a better starting CAP than one that was giving away too much free equity imo.

Edit: Also if you were targeting lotto players and gamblers, we're close to the point where crypto-currency is becoming accessible enough that rather than targetting the sub-demographic of gamblers within alt-coin communities, you'd probably do better awarding it to members of gambling/lottery sites & forums. 

Awarding doesn't work. Also the target demographic should be miners. Miners are the gamblers who build the Bitcoin community because it was people mining with CPUs and GPUs early on who told most of us to mine Bitcoins. Now everyone is telling people to buy Bitcoins and it's an entirely different proposition.

So what about the people who can't buy it? Shouldn't they have a chance to hit the jackpot too? After all isn't that what happened to people who mined Bitcoin in the CPU era? They hit the jackpot and now their coins are worth a fortune. The lottery effect allows anyone from any starting position to have a chance at rising to the top.

I also assume AGS/PTS gets a starting stake in that coin. So any other community would ask why would we donate money to help build a coin you are getting for free?

They are donating to get a stake in DACs which can offer shares as part of the jackpot. AGS/PTS would get some for free but our community was already here. They have a lot of mining rigs and they want a chance to get shares in the faucet so they play the game, so do people who have very little coins, and then some people will win.

But if they don't want to try to win the jackpot then they can just the shares on an exchange. Faucets are for people who don't want to or who can't afford to buy it on an exchange.

Details have to be worked out and discussed but it's a good enough idea to give it a shot.

[luckybit]

sometimes it feels to me that people overestimate the effect of percieved unfairness. in the end this is a capitalist system where people are cynical, or at least the people who are least swayed by and can see straight through the "talk" and "rumors" end up with the most money.

there seems to be a split in the crypto community, on the one hand people thinking NXT, Ripple, Gnash, etc. will fail just because they are unfair to some extent. but this is not how the space operates. at least so far, the incentives are not yet there to punish people who are unfair.

investors gonna invest, and it is the economically rational ones who grow their power. everyone else are just talking to the air.

Where is the investment going to come from? Mining isn't profitable anymore so Bitcoin is unfair. Suddenly there is a lot less investment coming in from ordinary people and now we have to kiss up to Wall Street. Enjoy the regulations which are coming.

[Empirical1]

Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


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I agree. They have to show actually want it. You must make them apply or sign up or opt in. Kind of like if you put a new coin on an exchange and there was no demand for it then nothing happens. It has to be something people from the other community are proven to have shown interest in.

When two communities have a lot in common already then its easy to know what they might be interested in (PoS communities have similar interests and goals). When it's Proof of Work then it's not going to be as straight forward because there is more social distance between the two communities. Social distance makes collaboration more difficult.

Changed it, does this look better?

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution.  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips.   (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

I think these things can be worth a try, but some issues I see with that

- Lottery players as a 'general' demographic are instant gratification junkies so the avg. one won't donate.

- It looks like everybody wins a lot with that model but I suspect only one coin will and it may not even be the coin that wins 20%. (By example LottoShares gave 10% to PTS and 10% to MMC which seemed fair and was probably coming from a fair place, but because MMC is only a $70k CAP if you like the LottoShares DAC you would have done better buying MMC to gain access to it. PTS would have lost by supporting and promoting it before the snapshot. Similarly in your model, whichever coin
gets the biggest % relative to their market CAP is the one that would support your diamond system I 'think', other coins may lose by supporting/promoting it.)

- Lottery players want the coin with the biggest jackpots, so they will play with the highest CAP/Jackpot coin, a lotto coin that kept most of the shares for a strong supportive community would have a better starting CAP than one that was giving away too much free equity imo.

Edit: Also if you were targeting lotto players and gamblers, we're close to the point where crypto-currency is becoming accessible enough that rather than targetting the sub-demographic of gamblers within alt-coin communities, you'd probably do better awarding it to members of gambling/lottery sites & forums.

I also assume AGS/PTS gets a starting stake in that coin. So any other community would ask why would we donate money to help build a coin you are getting for free?

[CLains]

sometimes it feels to me that people overestimate the effect of percieved unfairness. in the end this is a capitalist system where people are cynical, or at least the people who are least swayed by and can see straight through the "talk" and "rumors" end up with the most money.

there seems to be a split in the crypto community, on the one hand people thinking NXT, Ripple, Gnash, etc. will fail just because they are unfair to some extent. but this is not how the space operates. at least so far, the incentives are not yet there to punish people who are unfair.

investors gonna invest, and it is the economically rational ones who grow their power. everyone else are just talking to the air.

[Empirical1]

I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.

$1500 for free stake in not launched coin is limited success for you?

Yes.

NXT has the worst distribution in the world, 21 BTC raised and 70 initial holders.
Yet so far the biggest contender, which started distributing stakes to thousands of people, only a couple of months after NXT was launched and had the support of some NXT devs, still isn't worth 1/44th of the original,  is for me so far anyway, limited success.

(As in forking and re-distributing even against the worst distribution of NXT, where it's clearly the achilles heel hasn't done better, surprises me, but then as you say they haven't launched and also they have had controversy. I have a NEM stake so I don't mind if they do well.) 

[CLains]

The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

[luckybit]

if you're going to do a share drop to everybody then do a faucet.  It looks half as bad and nobody who's interested, or becomes interested later, will feel excluded


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The reason for the plan as it was originally figured out was to give other coins the ability to be honored in much the same way Bitcoin was by BTSX--only in a way that would provide a more inclusive user/developer base as well as honoring other "coins" that have worked hard to build a solid product.  This would essentially make the DAC a strong, autonomous marketing tool (which is needed), and a way to distribute shares of other DACs. 

Plus, the Benefits of this DAC being part of the BitShares ecosystem means that it has significant advantages over other coin lottos...
As far as people getting something for nothing...most of the people Share-dropped to in this manner would be those members initially involved in donating so that shouldn't be considered unfair. 

It would also serve to give people incentive to complete all the steps Invictus needs users to complete in order to gain access to this DAC.  Of course, this DAC could also later award shares in other DACs (after the other coin faucets dry up).

It's a better name but it has to be carefully thought out.

Probably not the best idea to call it a "casino" because people might start treating it as one. It's definitely a game and should be marketed as a serious game but if it's called a "casino" then it's going to raise unnecessary questions. If you must keep the name Bitshares Diamond Casino then thats fine but I'd prefer if you call it Bitshares Diamond Faucet and avoid all direct references toward gambling/betting if possible just because of the regulatory confusion especially since New York is having these discussions.

No matter the fundamental concepts are what matter and how it gets defined in terms of marketing can happen after the fact.

The Bitshares Diamond "Faucet" has a lot of strategic advantages. It does the marketing for us so we don't have to do the heavy lifting. It distributes for us as well and it tracks the interest level of different DACs. The one thing we need for marketing is community feedback and metrics and that is what we currently do not have right now.

We need to know which demographics for example are most interested in our technology. We'd instantly know this information which means this DAC could provide valuable marketing statistic information.

[fuzzy]

if you're going to do a share drop to everybody then do a faucet.  It looks half as bad and nobody who's interested, or becomes interested later, will feel excluded


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The reason for the plan as it was originally figured out was to give other coins the ability to be honored in much the same way Bitcoin was by BTSX--only in a way that would provide a more inclusive user/developer base as well as honoring other "coins" that have worked hard to build a solid product.  This would essentially make the DAC a strong, autonomous marketing tool (which is needed), and a way to distribute shares of other DACs. 

Plus, the Benefits of this DAC being part of the BitShares ecosystem means that it has significant advantages over other coin lottos...
As far as people getting something for nothing...most of the people Share-dropped to in this manner would be those members initially involved in donating so that shouldn't be considered unfair. 

It would also serve to give people incentive to complete all the steps Invictus needs users to complete in order to gain access to this DAC.  Of course, this DAC could also later award shares in other DACs (after the other coin faucets dry up). 

[liondani]

What about what bytemaster had in his mind in past:
 "for someone to setup and maintain an open source faucet application for BTS chains"

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4880.0

the bonus they give for referrals could be a portion of PTS?

Some more details on this particular project:

The goal is only one per person.   
I want to add SMS verification.
I want to add Referral Rewards
I want to integrate this service with our wallet.

The service should not store email addresses after sending emails, only the hash of the email addresses.

The factors that prove uniqueness:
1) email
2) phone
3) gravatar account

If someone wants to fake all 3 then that is fine.

I would like to support finding friends on Google / Facebook for 'automatic referral'.

So if someone you refer ends up signing up you get a bonus.     

Now we have financial incentive for people to sign up unique individuals and to refer their friends.   

New users will be able to use our DACs without ever having to see or know about the existence of public keys / private keys.

[bitbro]

if you're going to do a share drop to everybody then do a faucet.  It looks half as bad and nobody who's interested, or becomes interested later, will feel excluded


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fuzzy]

Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. They have to show actually want it. You must make them apply or sign up or opt in. Kind of like if you put a new coin on an exchange and there was no demand for it then nothing happens. It has to be something people from the other community are proven to have shown interest in.

When two communities have a lot in common already then its easy to know what they might be interested in (PoS communities have similar interests and goals). When it's Proof of Work then it's not going to be as straight forward because there is more social distance between the two communities. Social distance makes collaboration more difficult.

Changed it, does this look better?

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution.  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips.   (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

[luckybit]

Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. They have to show actually want it. You must make them apply or sign up or opt in. Kind of like if you put a new coin on an exchange and there was no demand for it then nothing happens. It has to be something people from the other community are proven to have shown interest in.

When two communities have a lot in common already then its easy to know what they might be interested in (PoS communities have similar interests and goals). When it's Proof of Work then it's not going to be as straight forward because there is more social distance between the two communities. Social distance makes collaboration more difficult.

[bitbro]

Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[luckybit]

@Fuznuts

I like the idea. I don't know if we should call it "Bitshares Diamond" because what if a BitAsset is also "BitDiamond" and there is confusion between what it is tracking? Kind of like the problem we'd have with calling it "Bitshares Gold". I would call it Bitshares *.  Bitshares * would be pronounced Bitshares Wildcard. The diamond would work great as part of a meme in the advertising/logo so that users associate the diamond logo with Bitshares Wildcard.

Overall though I think it's the best way to create an on-ramp into our ecosystem which feels a lot like mining to the players.

What you describe is how I would do it for PoW communities.

[fuzzy]

oh...almost forgot.  After Chips faucets dry out, Invictus could also use this as a way to let players "mine" extra shares in upcoming/new DACs that honor PTS/AGS.

[fuzzy]

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:

• 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

• 15% for 2nd place

• 10% for 3rd

• 7.5% for 4th

• 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution).  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips-- (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.)
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 

[luckybit]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

Read some of my posts on doing that. I have a 50/50 plan. But it's about communities not the assets and the community has to want to merge with us otherwise it's a hostile take over and we will be viewed as foreign invaders (which we don't want to be viewed as this early in the game).

Crypto-mergers in my opinion should initially take place between PoS communities which each have something to gain from it. The split should be 50/50 so that each community gets a shared sense of win from the procedure.

Don't worry about PoW currencies like Bitcoin. Their miners have the least to gain and most to lose from our technology.

[Mrrr]

In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business.

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.

The mining subsidy of bitcoin isn't directly felt due to the non-linear increase in demand versus the rather linear increase in supply. Combined with the enormous network effect, you have a problem that consumers will typically stay with the sub-optimal standard. Asking people to migrate to a better standard when the old one is still making them money and sufficient for the needs of value transactions is a tough nut to crack. One can say hey we are better for the following reasons (I think apple did it best ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnX6XRQBec), but ultimately, consumers are lazy.

Getting people to do something new usually requires a hook of some kind. With proof of stake, you have to premine the supply. So why not just distribute amongst a basket of currencies and use it as a hook? If the coin starts to get market value, then people have a stake in protecting it and will naturally become surrogates. The keys are properly engineering the basket, the value bootstrap and consistent release cycles. The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).

The whole thing really just seems like a wasted opportunity to me. 

I have yet to come up with a reply towards mr. Hoskinson's sharp observations. I'd like to point out however, that a community that is still fapping to Gisele Bundchen in an Apple commercial is a long way from attaining public acceptance.

[Empirical1]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

 

Love this post! It's about how you say things and how others perceive you. If we come across as generous they will board our ship.

I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.

In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business. 

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  Even though I don't mind trying out sharedrop ideas I lean towards that pov.

But with real world products free product samples can be very effective & with crypto-currency, the currency is the product... So there are some blurred lines. However In real life, free samples are just a form of marketing and as such represent a % of the marketing budget.

So I suspect we'll find that giving most of the equity to a strong supportive community like X did will result in a good starting CAP & releasing 10% equity for marketing with up to half of that going to Sharedrops will probably be the best marketing strategy for a new DAC product/service.

For a currency specific product it may be a little different but giving away most of the equity in Sharedrops seems like it would logically value the currency initially as pretty worthless and all attempts so far have pretty much confirmed that. Any attempts to buy up significant shares or award yourself multiple stakes like NEM did, while pretending to be fair in a socialist kind of way is pretty risky.

Nothing wrong with trying some of the distribution ideas out though.

[Simeon II]

In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business.

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.

The mining subsidy of bitcoin isn't directly felt due to the non-linear increase in demand versus the rather linear increase in supply. Combined with the enormous network effect, you have a problem that consumers will typically stay with the sub-optimal standard. Asking people to migrate to a better standard when the old one is still making them money and sufficient for the needs of value transactions is a tough nut to crack. One can say hey we are better for the following reasons (I think apple did it best ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnX6XRQBec), but ultimately, consumers are lazy.

Getting people to do something new usually requires a hook of some kind. With proof of stake, you have to premine the supply. So why not just distribute amongst a basket of currencies and use it as a hook? If the coin starts to get market value, then people have a stake in protecting it and will naturally become surrogates. The keys are properly engineering the basket, the value bootstrap and consistent release cycles. The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).

The whole thing really just seems like a wasted opportunity to me.   

I have kind of a grand plan for this:

It is called DPOScoin

1 Distribution

-Drop/distribute the coin to the 15-20 biggest coins + AGS proportional to their price in selected date. The big question here is if or in not to include BTC. Each has advantages and disadvantages 90% will definitely skew the things in BTCs favor. The best of both worlds is something like scaling down BTC market cap to something like 2 -3 times that of LTC.

-Give some free shares/coins free, i.e. NEM style.

2.IPO/Donation/Operations account

Open an account for donations/IPO:

-1/3 of the money collected go for open market buying from early sellers; - at the end of each month the DPOScoin bought are split (2:1) between developers and donors proportional to donated amount.
-2/3 are paid as salaries to devs and bounties.

3. Other income

Probably even the most significant income for devs/distribution to IPO donors
-Each month the amount that can be claimed by each account in each of the  20 oryginal cryptos is reduced by 2.5%. At the end of the month the unclaimed amounts (in DPOScoin now) are split 3:1 between IPO donors and developers.

[bitbro]

Right, completely agree. My point is more that BitShares will provide services that have not been offered anywhere else.  If there is demand for the services, then that is what marketing should focus on.  And while currently it is not clear, soon after stock rises, giving away something for nothing will clearly be a move that is costly to the business.  Bitcoin today focuses on its services, which is the playing field we should meet them on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[charleshoskinson]

In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business.

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.

The mining subsidy of bitcoin isn't directly felt due to the non-linear increase in demand versus the rather linear increase in supply. Combined with the enormous network effect, you have a problem that consumers will typically stay with the sub-optimal standard. Asking people to migrate to a better standard when the old one is still making them money and sufficient for the needs of value transactions is a tough nut to crack. One can say hey we are better for the following reasons (I think apple did it best ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnX6XRQBec), but ultimately, consumers are lazy.

Getting people to do something new usually requires a hook of some kind. With proof of stake, you have to premine the supply. So why not just distribute amongst a basket of currencies and use it as a hook? If the coin starts to get market value, then people have a stake in protecting it and will naturally become surrogates. The keys are properly engineering the basket, the value bootstrap and consistent release cycles. The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).

The whole thing really just seems like a wasted opportunity to me.   

[oco101]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

Welcome back Charles. You will always be welcome in our community, we all appreciate you insight ...... (this is only my opinion but I hope every one here agree)
 
Nxt they have a really solid product, we'll see how everything pan out, although I agree that their initial distribution was not the most brilliant thing they did ...
Of course if Btsx it is gonna work how is suppose too, Nxt  gonna be in a lot a trouble sooner or later.

[bitbro]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

 

Love this post! It's about how you say things and how others perceive you. If we come across as generous they will board our ship.

I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.

In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business. 

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Simeon II]

I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.

$1500 for free stake in not launched coin is limited success for you?

[Empirical1]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

 

Love this post! It's about how you say things and how others perceive you. If we come across as generous they will board our ship.

I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.

[jae208]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

 

Love this post! It's about how you say things and how others perceive you. If we come across as generous they will board our ship.

[charleshoskinson]

It should not be that hard for java devs to code in C++. But this is not my area of expertise.

And thus begins the Javas V C++ holy war debate . Don't go down that road Simeon. Although I can't resist to point out the 2005-2013 java security plan:



The C++ codebase in your github repo is extremely well written and designed. I wouldn't expect any less from Dan. He's an expert in modern C++.

[Simeon II]

It should not be that hard for java devs to code in C++. But this is not my area of expertise.

[charleshoskinson]

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects. 

[Simeon II]

I wouldn't write Nxt off so easily.  They are likely going to outlast Bitcoin and will be our biggest competitor for a while.

Dan is correct. Nxt has a persistent community, some good developers and are a few forks away from being a legitimate replacement for Bitcoin. Translation, you guys should launch a bitcoin replacement currency using DPOS and Titan that splits distribution amongst the most popular coins and AGS. Steal the Nxt community via outreach and innovation.

Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst   … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

[charleshoskinson]

I wouldn't write Nxt off so easily.  They are likely going to outlast Bitcoin and will be our biggest competitor for a while.

Dan is correct. Nxt has a persistent community, some good developers and are a few forks away from being a legitimate replacement for Bitcoin. Translation, you guys should launch a bitcoin replacement currency using DPOS and Titan that splits distribution amongst the most popular coins and AGS. Steal the Nxt community via outreach and innovation.

[liondani]

I wouldn't write Nxt off so easily.  They are likely going to outlast Bitcoin and will be our biggest competitor for a while.

translation:
"BitShares will outlast Bitcoin and NXT"

[bytemaster]

I wouldn't write Nxt off so easily.  They are likely going to outlast Bitcoin and will be our biggest competitor for a while.

[Simeon II]

   
Re: Anyone else have a feeling NXT is about to explode?
Today at 10:37:05 PM
   
 #162
I think some of us are missing the point here: all of the features of both NXT and Ripple are open-source concepts, anyone can implement them and in many cases it's kind of difficult to figure out who originally came up with a particular concept. So to say that x is copying y is a fairly pointless game, like saying that Ford are copying Nissan by putting wheels on their cars......

NXT is revolutionary not because of any specific feature set, but because NXT has been designed from the ground up to be a platform for other applications, not just a currency.
This means that if you can come up with a concept, you can probably figure out a way to implement it on NXT.
 
Just take a quick look at the list of projects that NXT is already supporting:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-projects/

And we haven't even got on to the features list/road-map yet....

As correctly predicted just before it started happening here, I have the feeling that NXT is about to implode... But it might be just me.

[edit] finally found the link.

[friendsofbitshares]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=589296.msg7900500#msg7900500

As I was browsing bitcointalk I came across the above link.  I wonder if perhaps NXT is trying to change their salespitch ?   It is even pre-excusing their claims.

Has anyone seen the original dev talk about the corporation metaphor previously ?  It was news to me !   

   
   
Re: Anyone else have a feeling NXT is about to explode?
Today at 10:37:05 PM
   
 #162
I think some of us are missing the point here: all of the features of both NXT and Ripple are open-source concepts, anyone can implement them and in many cases it's kind of difficult to figure out who originally came up with a particular concept. So to say that x is copying y is a fairly pointless game, like saying that Ford are copying Nissan by putting wheels on their cars......

NXT is revolutionary not because of any specific feature set, but because NXT has been designed from the ground up to be a platform for other applications, not just a currency.
This means that if you can come up with a concept, you can probably figure out a way to implement it on NXT.
 
Just take a quick look at the list of projects that NXT is already supporting:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-projects/

And we haven't even got on to the features list/road-map yet....