Author Topic: My friends, gather closely.  (Read 17337 times)

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Offline Empirical1

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Auroracoin example of big Sharedrop vs. alternative - 

If someone said to me - 'Iceland is ripe for bootstrapping a crypto-currency, they've recently experienced huge economic upheaval and still have capital controls in place.  They also only have a small fairly wealthy population of only 320 000 that would be easy to effectively target.' - I would agree.

But when they said we're making 'AuroraCoin' and giving 50% away in Sharedrops - I just laughed. Some (On this forum) also got excited about the guys bootstrapping Silicon Valley with a 50% Sharedrop coin,  but again I find the idea crazy. (Then people say oh if only they'd done the Sharedrop this way or that way, or supported them like this, it would have been better, but I'm still mostly sceptical.)   

If however someone said - we're making 'ICE-Coin'

Instead of a benefactor getting half the developers equity and trying to make a price floor as you're suggesting, I would have - 'We have a benefactor who's given us $250 000 for 5% equity.'
$50 000 is being used to purchase 10 'ICE-Coin' branded ATM's & rent space in 10 of the most popular locations around Iceland for a year.
$50 000 is being spent renting two billboards, one on the main road from the airport and one in the main high street advertising Ice-Coin for 12 months.
$100 000 is being targeted at incentivising smaller retailers, hotels and travel agents to trial 'ICE-Coin' payments and advertise at their store fronts for a year. So far we have Z, B & Y on board...
$50 000 is being spent on creating two Icelandic videos, one a 30 second advert which will be played on radio & TV for three months.
We're  giving 10% of the equity to Hagar, one of Iceland's biggest retailers in exchange for agreeing to trial ICE-Coin as a payment option for the next 12 months. 
2.5% is being made available via a faucet  and we're going to give 1.5% equity a year to charitable & popular Iceland based causes based on shareholder votes. 

40% of equity is being divided between AGS & PTS as we are using their DPOS Blockchains and Toolkit & they provide a strong distributed base of shareholder support and ensure that our benefactor and retailers who are given equity don't have a stake that is big enough to manipulate or control the currency. We are announcing a snapshot to take place in one month from PTS allowing other interested parties to get on board and sell their PTS afterwards if they wish. The remaining 40% of the equity is being released via delegates over 5 years to be directed at activities shareholders feel is best suited to developing ICE-Coin.

Now you actually have some sort of a currency that might be able to bootstrap itself in Iceland that I would consider buying.

Even better news if Ice Coin launched at the same time as AuroraCoin -
'Hey guys some people think you can bootstrap a currency by giving away 50% of the equity! Obviously this will result a fairly worthless crypto but hopefully it will make some people aware of crypto-currency so the advertising will certainly be useful to us! In fact we're offering a service encouraging people to claim & quickly sell their free Auroracoins while they still have value and exchange those free Kr. into ICE-Coin - A currency which actually has a strong stable shareholder supported value, is useful within Iceland and has an effective business plan to grow and benefit Iceland.'

I know most people here who favour sharedrops agree most of the previous attempts have gone about it the wrong way, but I'm just tying to communicate the idea that shareholder equity can be spent in ways other than sharedrops (though I'm not against reasonable faucets & charity of up to 5% total equity.) & the amount that would be wasted on 'free marketing' can be put to better use. And personally I would be more fearful of forks that use shareholder equity to implement a credible business plan vs. giving most of it away when AGS & PTS already gives you a strong supportive base and can bring in 100's/1000's of new people via a PTS Snapshot announcement. 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 05:40:27 pm by Empirical1 »

Offline Empirical1

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Hi Charles, thanks for the reply, yes it was very witch hunty/paranoid  :(

I didn't realise the benefactor would be public and tbh I misread '50% of the developers stake' to mean up to 50% of the entire stake.

So I interpreted it as you were saying that the DAC would have the appearance to the market of having a high valuation and being widely distributed when really there's a clandestine whale who would now control a majority share.

(Once there are many independent third party DAC's being released their strategies won't reflect on the whole BitShares ecosystem anyway.)

Usually if I'm going to post an accusation or something negative on a forum I sleep on it first, probably would have been wise in this case. Apologies.

No worries, I've adopted a thicker skin policy for the Bitshares forum. I think everyone- including me- needs to take a break from the past. It's unhealthy.

Cool  :) I actually do like reading your stuff even if I disagree, because I think you do make good intelligent thought provoking points.

For example I actually like the idea of transparent price floors in general. I remember when I first got into Bitcoin I felt long term supporters could help make Bitcoin more stable by instead of hoarding, selling a small % into the price rises to provide more liquidity, lessen volatility and then place buy orders for double the amount of BTC they just sold at 1/2 the price. (This floor would be re-inforced because others wanting to buy cheap BTC would place their buy orders above the strong floor, thereby creating a 'superfloor' - that would really help support a new volatile currency. In the worst case that the floor was broken it would just mean long term supporters ended up with more BTC than they had before. So kind of win-win.)

Your application of it here via the benefactor to soak up the Sharedrops  or suggesting NXT could have bought up Sharedropped coins that were sold on the cheap, both highlight the problem I have with significant Sharedrops.

For me any marketing spend should have a positive net return, so when you give away free samples you should be expecting enough of the people who received them to become buyers, enough to at least offset the cost of the other free samples. (Sharedrops) But both your benefactor and NXT statements highlight that you believe what I do which is that in the short term at least - Significant Sharedrops will have big price suppressive effects on the DAC.  (I guess you believe the longer term benefits in terms of perceived fairness and broader awareness base will slowly create more buying support for it vs. a competitor. )

However while many are fearful of a fork that has big Sharedrops, I am fearful of fork that does almost no Sharedrops. If someone gave me a sample of company who's share price was declining in value  because of the amount of share-dropping (Which we both seem to agree would happen in the short term) & I could see there was another DAC offering the exact same product that had a stable or rising share price then it would be for me illogical to hold on to a declining share price DAC when I could sell that for shares in a stable/rising company selling the same product. (So in effect a DAC that sharedropped would just be giving free advertising to a fork of a DAC that didn't - I'll try put in an example of how I think it could be applied at in my next post with Auroracoin.) 

However there are a lot of people that share some of your views, Fuznuts, Luckybit, DA (-Stan) etc. I also don't think there are any plans yet to do a straight DPOS based currency coin yet which is what your suggestion was & I think that idea is a good one! & while I think most DAC's are more like businesses, with a DPOS currency there is perhaps a greater idea of maximum fairness & value to be gained from maximum alt-coin community support,  so if there was ever a place to try out some of these ideas I think you've hit on the right one and I think it is definitely worth giving it a shot.


Offline fuzzy

Fellas, about the OP.... 

rofl. 

We need a -5% icon.   ;D

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Offline gamey

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Fellas, about the OP.... 

rofl. 

We need a -5% icon.   ;D
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline fuzzy

p.s. @simeonII  what you mean by "Hostile Takeover?"
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Offline fuzzy

I think Charles is pushing something that would severely distract from the roll out plan and short term vision.  I don't like backseat driving from someone not in the car.  Any bullshit share drop distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road.
I wouldn't think anything of it without the back-story but there does seem to at least be the potential for corporate sabotage 101 in this thread.  If you wanted to seriously damage BitShares your best bet would be to try to influence BitShares into doing something with one product that could severely damage the credibility & ethics of the whole brand...


You got that right bro, serious “bullshit,” what is this asshole thinking:



So why not just distribute amongst a basket of currencies and use it as a hook? If the coin starts to get market value, then people have a stake in protecting it and will naturally become surrogates. The keys are properly engineering the basket, the value bootstrap and consistent release cycles. The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).  The whole thing really just seems like a wasted opportunity to me.   


LOL !! Don’t make us laugh ass! 
Marketing “hook ? basket? bootstraps? release cycles?”
“legitimate contender to bitcoin!”  ?? wtf?
Don’t sweat it team, I’ll handle this troll from here, you guys can get back to work:


Stop trying to steal our coins and our code Mofo Troll Hoskinson (if that really is your real name)!  You better back the Chuck up with that “free hippy love and coins communism crap.”  We are the BitShares Community, and we don’t give anything to anybody (especially those less fortunate) for free, see.  Even if it means that BitShares obtains global adoption and the price rises 100x like Bitcoin did in last year, we will never donate even 1% of our precious coin holdings because we do not care about making money on our investment.  Our mission is to make sure that NOBODY makes any money off  BitShares, especially us!  “Legitimate contender to bitcoin?” We don’t want to compete with bitcoin! Get it! WE DON’T WANT PUBLICITY OR EXPOSURE ChuckFace!  Especially GLOBAL EXPOSURE ! This is our party, and we will cry because we want to!  It’s not that we don’t understand that marketing = math.  It’s simply because we don’t need the money because we are already in the global 1% of the wealthiest human beings ever to walk this pitiful planet.  And we don’t care about getting wealthier; we just don’t want to see anybody else having a good time on OUR planet with OUR coins because of OUR code!  We are the global fun police, so please put the jointdown Chas.  And no smiling or marketing math allowed here troll. 


You better leave this place now, and never show your face here again because here’s what happened to the last chuck-head that tried STARTING A THREAD about airdropping coins because it is an extremely simple and cheap way to distribute millions of units of OUR code to people throughout the globe who already own computers and have at least one “Bitcoin-crypto-type” software program pre-loaded into their machines that they are very familiar with (We don’t want to market our BitShares to people who comprehend modern cryptocurrency theory or have computers you numbskull!):


Spolier alert, we told him to go chuck himself!


I like the idea of honoring namecoin holders with a small percent and adding a half life to their position. 
I think that adding a half-life to all genesis block positions to encourage people to download the wallet and start securing the network / finding bugs.   Perhaps something as simple as losing 10% per month if you do not claim your funds in the genesis block.
If you wait a while you still get something, but eventually the free give aways end.
I would then recommend that you give some to everyone with BTC and NMC....   this process works better if you have an easy to use wallet on launch and can use the news to generate solid first impression.   
Perhaps a better alternative is to give them 10% but not let them sell for 6 months.  Then they will see it grow and be less likely to sell.


A lot of discussion on airdrops has been going on recently and I would like to add a new twist. 

1) I like the half life concept... 50% drop every month until balance is below 1 BIP.
2) Unclaimed air-drop funds should be sent to developers.
3) Altcoin owners are likely more valuable than BTC owners because BTC-only owners are usually altcoin snobs.
4) I recommend honoring all of the top 10 bitcoin-based alt-coins proportional to market cap.  This will get the widest possible airdrop.
5) Don't honor coins with large pre-mines...

If you set this up right, the developers can avoid any accusations of 'pre-mine' because everyone had an opportunity to claim it, unclaimed funds go to devs... this also solves the problem of dead coins being honored.

Ha HA! HAA ha!
What a loser that dude is!  Right fellas?!  And what a megalomaniacal ego this ass must have to call himself:

“ The Bytemaster”


Ha HA! HAA ha!  As if this assmaster knows anything about math or the magic of marketing!  Tell us oh great (byte)MASTER who controls us centrally how do you plan to distribute your decentralized application!  You are not the master here Dan, because WE are the controlling members of your community, remember you sold your soul to US, and now you are nothing but the byteslave!  So shut up with those marketing ideas.  What are you trying to do, market your code to the world!  HA HA over our dead BitShares!  You will do what your told.  And we are ordering you to go against your heart, soul, feelings, and intuition.  We are ordering you to Seppuku!


“byteMASTER”

 
I bet the BitShares community is supposed to follow this MASTER.  Well guess what? We the BitShares community are united in our steadfast disdain over the bird-brain ideas of this “Bytemaster!” because we all uniformly agree that his airdrop marketing ideas are:


bullshit


Which just happens to be the meme of our new BitShares T:


BitShares X: “ hey planet earth, pay no attention to the bytemaster”


So screw Dan’s plans.  Don’t you know that math geniuses must be inept at marketing it’s the law of Tesla.


http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/in-1897-nikola-tesla-tore-up-a-contract-that-would-have-made-him-the-worlds-first-billionaire/


We the BitShares community are the same group of people that prevented Tesla from realizing his dreams by keeping him poorly funded until he died (then we just stole his ideas).


http://www.thrivemovement.com/nikola-tesla-s-lab-burned


We are the Marconi gang, the ones who burned down Tesla’s workshop in order to bring our radio product to the market first:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guglielmo_Marconi


So you see Chuck, we don’t want your innovative marketing ideas, because they are identical to Dan’s ideas who we know for a fact must be a marketing idiot.  We never wanted Dan’s ideas to gain exposure just like all the Tesla free energy invention plans equipment and drawings we stole before we burned his lab down.  Now you are forced to use dirty nuclear energy, when you could have had free energy this whole time you suckers!  So just like with Nikola, we want to watch Dan fail because we are haters (fun police).  DOWN WITH DAN’S MARKETING PLANS!!  Mwo ho ho ha ha ha ?!


See that Charles?  May I call you Charles?  Nice to meet you.  Sorry for all the “chuck off” jokes, I’m a comedian (and not a very good one I freely admit).  I’m DA, and I speak marketing, but the BitShares Community does not.  Not even Dan who has convinced them to donate to DPOS, can learn these old dogs.  And yet “we” (you, Dan, and I) are the enemy because we 3 intuitively agree:


We are taking donations to be used however we decide to.  Currently, we are proposing an airdrop to Bitcoin/Keyhotee/Dogecoin/Ether holders:
Bitcoin - 35%
Faucet - 10%
Keyhotee - 35%
Peercoin - 10%
Ether - 10%

Ther reason we are using the term "faucet" is because the total donation pool that we receive will probably be negligable compared to the overall market cap.  It won't matter if everyone dumps the shares, we are only looking to plant seeds that will hopefully inspire thousands of adopters.


Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...


See what  I mean Charles? It’s like you are speaking another language when you talk marketing around these parts.  And Dan is helpless because he has shackled himself to his schizophrenic community who trusts his math skills one day, but then they call him stupid the next.  But what can you do, that LaMancha man is in love with his community even though they want to see him fail because they don’t support his ideas or they think that they are smarter than him.  It can only be one of those two exact reasons.  I just don’t care to find out which one is the true reason.


Dan is married to this community who wants to see him fail, and we are his Bachelor buddies who hate watching him get wacked.  Dan knows that you are correct Chuck, and he has even told his wife face to face that your idea is the truth of reality (and that marketing is just math after all):


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=455106647969436&set=vb.408134445999990&type=2&theater


But she insists on zero charitable giving.  And what can I say, he loves her.  Either way, the three of us are wasting our time on this issue obviously.  It’s been noted here that I’ve wasted forty something posts campaigning for my “singular vision” (I wish I had time to dig up that post), and coincidently, so have you now, actually, so, but, uh….


Hey….


Wait a minute……!!!!


DA has spent 40 posts begging to Airdrop to Ethereum, and now the famous Charles H himself shows up out of the blue begging for free BitShares…..


Wait for it…..





I give up!  You guys got me!  I am Charles Hoskinson the Etherman himself!!!!  Why do you think that I was begging you guys to airdrop to Ethereum until my banished breath!  You selfish BitBastards have finally flushed out your true enemy!


I am your enemy! 


I am your competition!


I almost tricked you into giving away your precious BitShares!


But you stayed true to your beliefs, and you win!


Now you know who I REALLY AM!   











Check this out Chuck.  I wanted to leave this post at that, but these fools would have wasted Dan’s time talking and spamming his workshop lab message board with People Magazine-type rumors concerning Bennifer’s new thrife, and “who this DA character REALLY is once and for all!”:


Now is Decentralized Application BM?


I know DA is dan but honestly I was hoping it was Satoshi Nakamoto before I realized


No.  DA is not bytemaster.
 
You're right that DA is not bytemaster, but he probably is Dan Larimer


Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...
DA is a charade for sure, but let me spoil the fun so we don't waste breath; DA is dan
 




And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Empirical1, if you read between the lines here, you will see....

No way dude  :) They are not the same person. I'm 99%+ sure on that.


You see Chuck, we can teach them for days, and still nothing gets through.  I’ve tried explaining it to them like this:  Dan, Chuck, and I are like that guy at the party who is always talking about what he is going to do, and how he plans to do it.  The difference between us, is that when you are hungover the next day, we are out there executing our plans.


I also preach to them basic stuff like:  BitShares was designed by Dan to be about the JOURNEY to La Mancha, not about what type of horse you plan on riding in on.  But again..” woosh” over their heads.

Go ahead, you try Charles.  I’ve taken the liberty of giving you the canned peanut gallery response


DA, this is a powerful idea and I support the first mover concept. But it would need to be defined to the acceptance of this community


Great initiative. However, this donation campaign funded by community holders won't get off the ground.


I REALLY DON'T sink in on this . Too skeptical .  >:( Im beginning to question the real motive behind  this AIRDROP.


i don't like the idea of an airdrop


Why would it be a good idea to give Bitshares to people for nothing?  I don't see why it's suddenly cool to give Bitcoin owners something for nothing.


As one of bitshare stockholder I hold my rights to reject this idea. A BIG no for me.



What is the point? It seems almost like a tax and it makes no sense.  There should be ways for people to earn a stake, but don't give it away for free.
 
I've noticed that most people who hate taxes/welfare etc are mostly upset that others get something free that they worked hard for.  There are lots of valid arguments against my idea.  None of which are "don't do it because it is cool" or "people need to work for it".


Here at BitShares, we like to control people and tell them what to do.

For instance:  “Everyone must work and pay for BitShares.”  “Nobody may give any away for free.”  We claim to be against centrally controlled tyranny, but secretly, we adore it.:
“Hey you over there!”  “No giving away charity coins or helping of anybody unless you make them PAY first!”  That was the motto created on our first BitShares T-Shirt (want to buy one?).

BitShares:  Telling others what they can’t do since we learned to Tapatalk.


wth?  i know for a fact people Tip each other in this forum...why?  Because up to (and not yet including) this last tip I received for runnin gthe Mumble server was given to those who help me on a regular basis.  Do I tip people for free?  nope...but I would.  as far as airdrops?  no clue why they are considered a bad thing...if done strategically.  Sadly some HUGE bag holders are the most against this

Although I have been a bit frustrated sometimes that not everyone in the community comprehends the value of giving a currency to the people you would like to use (and value) it, I have found nothing yet to give the impression that Dan has ever wanted to be a Dictator.  This post mostly made no sense as it went back and forth both deriding and praising Byte"slave" and really I find little value in it. 

Well guys, going to get back to work trying to help our little community

« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 04:05:49 pm by fuznuts »
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Offline Simeon II

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I will venture to disagree with DA on one major point. I dare do so as Charles H's view seem to match my DPOScoin ideas almost one for one.  It is no marketing DA, it is plain and simple:


Hostile Takeovers




...

Offline Simeon II

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DA is not resting in peace after all...

Sent  not using Tapatalk.

bitbro

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DA also might be Stephen Colbert


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« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 02:42:43 pm by bitbro »

bitbro

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If DA/Dan of the Future wants to airdrop, faucet, whatever, I am in, because that guy is my dude and he writes like Shakespeare


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« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 02:20:24 pm by bitbro »

charleshoskinson

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Hi Charles, thanks for the reply, yes it was very witch hunty/paranoid  :(

I didn't realise the benefactor would be public and tbh I misread '50% of the developers stake' to mean up to 50% of the entire stake.

So I interpreted it as you were saying that the DAC would have the appearance to the market of having a high valuation and being widely distributed when really there's a clandestine whale who would now control a majority share.

(Once there are many independent third party DAC's being released their strategies won't reflect on the whole BitShares ecosystem anyway.)

Usually if I'm going to post an accusation or something negative on a forum I sleep on it first, probably would have been wise in this case. Apologies.

No worries, I've adopted a thicker skin policy for the Bitshares forum. I think everyone- including me- needs to take a break from the past. It's unhealthy.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:43:44 am by charleshoskinson »

Offline fuzzy

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- Lottery players as a 'general' demographic are instant gratification junkies so the avg. one won't donate.
That is a good point. Which is precisely why increasing the value proposition while coupling it with the marketing could be a winner...

Thanks for the detailed responses Luckybit & Fuznuts, I'll look at those points a bit later. It sounds interesting & I guess this is a separate DAC idea to the main BitShares Lotto roll out though? If so then I don't think there's any harm in trying good original ideas like this.
Wasnt actually supposed to be a separate DAC so much as a way to make a lottery that, in the initial phase brings in other strong coins into a "family" in a way that exemplifies collaboration while also establishin the initial behavioral patterns required to maximize the number of long-term users. 

The faucets will dry up, but new DAC development would then likely occur from multiple competing cryptos and they would also be able to donate to the faucet. 

As far as it not sounding like a Lotto DAC, I can see how someone could think that, but in fact that all depends on the reward amounts over time.  There is no reason (I can think of) why the Lotto DAC could not be a more "fair" game of chance DAC than the rest while also actually having params set in sich a way as to ensure it is more of a Lotto as opposed to the faucet alone.
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Offline Empirical1

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Hi Charles, thanks for the reply, yes it was very witch hunty/paranoid  :(

I didn't realise the benefactor would be public and tbh I misread '50% of the developers stake' to mean up to 50% of the entire stake.

So I interpreted it as you were saying that the DAC would have the appearance to the market of having a high valuation and being widely distributed when really there's a clandestine whale who would now control a majority share.

(Once there are many independent third party DAC's being released their strategies won't reflect on the whole BitShares ecosystem anyway.)

Usually if I'm going to post an accusation or something negative on a forum I sleep on it first, probably would have been wise in this case. Apologies.
 

charleshoskinson

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What the hell are you talking about?
You just publicly say – We strongly believe in the value of our company. To prove that we will use up to that and that dollar amount to buy back our shares from everybody willing to sell.
What PR nightmare?

I know right. Hey market, I believe in this product and will buy as much as I can at this price....MARKET MANIPULATION!!!!!!