Author Topic: How committed is the community to bitsharesX as opposed to the next "DAC"?  (Read 22256 times)

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Offline oldman

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If Paypal is on the ball they will use bitAssets (mainly bitUSD) on the back end and drop their fees to compete with BTC.

They have the physical infrastructure and customer base.

The truth is that the vast majority of folks will still use centralized services for a very long time. It is familiar and comfortable.

They take fiat and convert to a bitAsset, side step the international banking complex, move/track funds quickly and cheaply using the Bitshares tech and spit out fiat or crypto on the other end.

I think eventually P2P will take over, but there will be a transition phase.

Offline CoinHoarder

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I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be replaced in the medium term. It's unique selling point was that it solved the disadvantages of centralisation and was private. In practice it's very bad at both for most.

It's not pulling away from the competition either despite global exposure and massive investment this year it's down and struggling.

It's pulling away in terms of adoption and therefore usefulness.  Not altcoins are making significant progress in adoption, but Bitcoin has important new announcements every week.  (The entire crypto space is currently down, lead by Bitcoin's decline price decline.)

Atm BTSX isn't a competitor as it's still new and in rapid development and is currently more CPOS than DPOS. + I guess they need the same merchant, PayPal type access as Bitcoin. But in general they're developing so fast that it's a few months away from changing everything.

I doubt that PayPal is going to add support for 5 different cryptocurrencies.  Adding even 1 more is probably well more than a few months away.  No altcoins are making significant strides in mainstream adoption.  Bitcoin widens the gap everyday.


Isn't PayPal partnered with Bitcoin payment processors so that people that use PayPal can also use Bitcoin?

Exactly, they are partnered with Bitcoin payment processors, NOT BITCOIN. PayPal will accept multiple cryptocurrencies as long as the payment processors handle everything for them. I doubt PayPal will even touch cryptocurrencies... The payment processors will exchange everything into FIAT for them. So, if BTSX can get added to one of the major payment processors it has a good chance to be used at PayPal and other major retailers. Getting added to major exchanges and payment processors is the key, as these major retailers don't give two craps about Cryptocoins. All they care about is money (FIAT), and cryptocoins are just another avenue for them to receive more of it.

To make getting accepted at a major payment processor more likely,  BTSX needs to get added to older and more reputable exchanges (no offense to those that already accept BTSX). We as a community should focus on getting added to major exchanges and payment processors, and that will give us a good chance to be used at major retailers. Any cryptocurrency their partners support will be the ones that they accept, as they will be receiving FIAT no matter what cryptocurrency the payment processors accept.

Ps: see the link in my signature for things you can do to help that process. :D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 12:55:00 am by CoinHoarder »
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Offline jae208

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I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be replaced in the medium term. It's unique selling point was that it solved the disadvantages of centralisation and was private. In practice it's very bad at both for most.

It's not pulling away from the competition either despite global exposure and massive investment this year it's down and struggling.

It's pulling away in terms of adoption and therefore usefulness.  Not altcoins are making significant progress in adoption, but Bitcoin has important new announcements every week.  (The entire crypto space is currently down, lead by Bitcoin's decline price decline.)

Atm BTSX isn't a competitor as it's still new and in rapid development and is currently more CPOS than DPOS. + I guess they need the same merchant, PayPal type access as Bitcoin. But in general they're developing so fast that it's a few months away from changing everything.

I doubt that PayPal is going to add support for 5 different cryptocurrencies.  Adding even 1 more is probably well more than a few months away.  No altcoins are making significant strides in mainstream adoption.  Bitcoin widens the gap everyday.


Isn't PayPal partnered with Bitcoin payment processors so that people that use PayPal can also use Bitcoin?
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Offline fussyhands

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sorry for crossposting:
Fussyhands,
The statement: "the buying power of gold is highly volatile" is a subjective statement rather than a "FACT". When you use words like "highly" "extremely" you are making a subjective judgment and these statements must be considered in context.  In the context of the discussion taking place about altcoin cryptocurrencies I think it is fair to say that the buying power you can expect from gold is significantly less volatile and more predictable than the buying power you can expect from most altcoins.  Rather than present the statement as incontrovertible fact, perhaps if you explained more specifically what "highly volatile" means to you there would be opportunity for agreement.

Rather than cross post I'll just link to my response:  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9375.msg122208#msg122208

Offline fussyhands

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"This is the classic example of gold wealth preservation. Some historians have noted that one ounce of gold today would buy you a suit, a belt, a shirt and a pair of shoes. One ounce of gold in 1900 would do the same. One ounce of gold at the founding of the country would do the same. And some have said that going back to Roman times it would have bought the equivalent."
http://www.crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/26/does-gold-preserve-purchasing-power/

Consumer Price index is highly manipulated and near completely worthless representation of actual inflation.

I'm hard pressed to find anything better than gold as far as long term historically stable purchasing power.

To the extent that no existing currency has existed for thousands of years, it might be reasonable to view gold as less volatile than existing currencies such as the dollar over spans of hundreds or thousands of years.  That said, today, at shops within walking distance of my house, I can buy a suit for $100 or $10,000 (2 orders of magnitude difference!), so the folksy suit example is utterly lacking in rigor.  (Indeed, I find it somewhat ironic that you criticize the CPI so intensely, and then offer suit prices as an alternative metric.)

The CPI is not useless, though it's not perfect either.  There is no perfect measure of buying power, in large part because technology changes what we buy so drastically (no amount of money in the 70s could buy you a modern smart phone).

However, the fluctuations in that chart are so severe that whatever the shortcomings of the CPI, it's clear that gold is highly volatile.  The chart shows changes of a few hundred percent over the course of a few years.  The shortcomings of the CPI won't produce anything remotely like that.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 06:50:59 pm by fussyhands »

Offline fluxer555

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sorry for crossposting:
Fussyhands,
The statement: "the buying power of gold is highly volatile" is a subjective statement rather than a "FACT". When you use words like "highly" "extremely" you are making a subjective judgment and these statements must be considered in context.  In the context of the discussion taking place about altcoin cryptocurrencies I think it is fair to say that the buying power you can expect from gold is significantly less volatile and more predictable than the buying power you can expect from most altcoins.  Rather than present the statement as incontrovertible fact, perhaps if you explained more specifically what "highly volatile" means to you there would be opportunity for agreement.

Agent, your level of reason and diplomacy is oddly arousing...  +5%

Xeldal

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"This is the classic example of gold wealth preservation. Some historians have noted that one ounce of gold today would buy you a suit, a belt, a shirt and a pair of shoes. One ounce of gold in 1900 would do the same. One ounce of gold at the founding of the country would do the same. And some have said that going back to Roman times it would have bought the equivalent."
http://www.crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/05/26/does-gold-preserve-purchasing-power/

Consumer Price index is highly manipulated and near completely worthless representation of actual inflation.

I'm hard pressed to find anything better than gold as far as long term historically stable purchasing power.


Offline Agent86

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sorry for crossposting:
Fussyhands,
The statement: "the buying power of gold is highly volatile" is a subjective statement rather than a "FACT". When you use words like "highly" "extremely" you are making a subjective judgment and these statements must be considered in context.  In the context of the discussion taking place about altcoin cryptocurrencies I think it is fair to say that the buying power you can expect from gold is significantly less volatile and more predictable than the buying power you can expect from most altcoins.  Rather than present the statement as incontrovertible fact, perhaps if you explained more specifically what "highly volatile" means to you there would be opportunity for agreement.

Offline fussyhands

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Just like I said.  Type "buying power of gold over time" into Google and the very first image that appears shows that the BUYING POWER of gold is highly volatile.



(In case you don't know this already, when you measure something in "1971 dollars" you are measuring the change in BUYING POWER.  If you see the graph going all over the place, like it does in that picture, then you know that buying power is highly volatile.  But seriously, you should know these basic economic concepts already if you are pretending to be knowledgeable about economics.)
I don't think it's as volatile as you make it seem, at one point people did use gold to buy things and that worked (kind of but bitGLD solves many problems physical gold has as a currency volatility not being one of them)

People use BTC to buy things.  That doesn't mean that it's not volatile.  The chart shows you the volatility of gold compared to the volatility of the dollar.  Gold is extremely volatile.  Did you hear of the recent enormous crash in the value of gold, and the huge run up that preceded it?  Gold is very similar to BTC in that it's intrinsic value for production is not what drives its value.  Instead, what drives it's value is what people think that other people will be willing to pay for it.  It would loose 95% of its value if tomorrow people just stopped caring about gold.  (The last 5% it would retain because that it based on it's industrial value due to its special electro-chemical properties.)  It's a social consensus.  It's subject to run ups and crashes, just like BTC.  It buying power is highly volatile.

Offline Mysto

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...

In basket of goods.  In buying power.  Don't delude yourself.  Buying power of gold is highly volatile.
How did you got to that conclusion? Are you really that...., or you just play one here? Anyway I am done with you also.

Sorry dude.  Go look it up.  Gold's buying power is HIGHLY volatile.  Type "gold buying power over time" into Google and look at the charts.  You're just dead wrong on this.  If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.  Not only that, but the HayekMoney article that YOU told me to read says exactly the same thing: gold is volatile.

Dude, Can you give me more precise instruction in what imaginary thing I have to type "gold buying power over time", to get those magical results of yours?... also, are spaces required to get the results you get...aka should I type "gold buying power over time",

searching... 'No confirmations'
searching...  'No confirmations'
searching...  'No confirmations'

Changing to "Is BTC price more stable then Gold"... disappointed.
Changing to "Commodity price during the gold standard".... boring... very much so...'What the f**k people did with those flat prices? Weird stuff?

If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.

I am quite fine with the fact that I am 'deluded moron'... now tell me how you so cleverly discovered this thing about me so quickly ?

Just like I said.  Type "buying power of gold over time" into Google and the very first image that appears shows that the BUYING POWER of gold is highly volatile.



(In case you don't know this already, when you measure something in "1971 dollars" you are measuring the change in BUYING POWER.  If you see the graph going all over the place, like it does in that picture, then you know that buying power is highly volatile.  But seriously, you should know these basic economic concepts already if you are pretending to be knowledgeable about economics.)
I don't think it's as volatile as you make it seem, at one point people did use gold to buy things and that worked (kind of but bitGLD solves many problems physical gold has as a currency volatility not being one of them)

Offline fussyhands

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...

In basket of goods.  In buying power.  Don't delude yourself.  Buying power of gold is highly volatile.
How did you got to that conclusion? Are you really that...., or you just play one here? Anyway I am done with you also.

Sorry dude.  Go look it up.  Gold's buying power is HIGHLY volatile.  Type "gold buying power over time" into Google and look at the charts.  You're just dead wrong on this.  If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.  Not only that, but the HayekMoney article that YOU told me to read says exactly the same thing: gold is volatile.

Dude, Can you give me more precise instruction in what imaginary thing I have to type "gold buying power over time", to get those magical results of yours?... also, are spaces required to get the results you get...aka should I type "gold buying power over time",

searching... 'No confirmations'
searching...  'No confirmations'
searching...  'No confirmations'

Changing to "Is BTC price more stable then Gold"... disappointed.
Changing to "Commodity price during the gold standard".... boring... very much so...'What the f**k people did with those flat prices? Weird stuff?

If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.

I am quite fine with the fact that I am 'deluded moron'... now tell me how you so cleverly discovered this thing about me so quickly ?

Just like I said.  Type "buying power of gold over time" into Google and the very first image that appears shows that the BUYING POWER of gold is highly volatile.



(In case you don't know this already, when you measure something in "1971 dollars" you are measuring BUYING POWER.  A "1971 dollar" is the amount you could buy with a dollar in 1971, which is a constant/fixed amount of buying power.  If you see the graph going all over the place, like it does in that picture, then you know that buying power is highly volatile.  But seriously, you should know these basic economic concepts already if you are pretending to be knowledgeable about economics.)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 06:01:31 pm by fussyhands »


Offline bytemaster

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Offline tonyk

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...

In basket of goods.  In buying power.  Don't delude yourself.  Buying power of gold is highly volatile.
How did you got to that conclusion? Are you really that...., or you just play one here? Anyway I am done with you also.

Sorry dude.  Go look it up.  Gold's buying power is HIGHLY volatile.  Type "gold buying power over time" into Google and look at the charts.  You're just dead wrong on this.  If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.  Not only that, but the HayekMoney article that YOU told me to read says exactly the same thing: gold is volatile.

Dude, Can you give me more precise instruction in what imaginary thing I have to type "gold buying power over time", to get those magical results of yours?... also, are spaces required to get the results you get...aka should I type "gold buying power over time",

searching... 'No confirmations'
searching...  'No confirmations'
searching...  'No confirmations'

Changing to "Is BTC price more stable then Gold"... disappointed.
Changing to "Commodity price during the gold standard".... boring... very much so...'What the f**k people did with those flat prices? Weird stuff?

If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.

I am quite fine with the fact that I am 'deluded moron'... now tell me how you so cleverly discovered this thing about me so quickly ?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 07:09:58 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Thom

I like your thinking on this Oldman!  Your thinking aligns with my developing philosophy that Bitshares should be positioning Bitcoin as an ally (at least in these early stages) and not as an adversary as we tend to do now.

I agree.  This is key to getting bitcoiners to keep an open mind and investigate bitshares. 

The following is how I came to buy my first bitshares:

* The blockchain technology is amazing!
* Use the blockchain technology for currency, and you get Bitcoin!
* Use the blockchain technology for stocks and you get.....BITSHARES!  Hey look, they pay dividends!

This is how bitshares needs to be presented, imo.  Bitcoin = your currency.  Bitshares = your stocks (and commodities, and futures...) 

The name is perfect for making this connection.

From my earliest exposure to bitshares back in May where I heard Daniel interviewed, this was the take away point I immediately internalized. I have seen nothing that changes that since then.

Daniel describes how the DAC concept, or viewing bitcoin as a company is a very wasteful operation that can't sustain itself in the long run any more than the U.S. economy can by spending more money into circulation and mortgaging our children's furture to pay for our insatiable greed in the present. Society no longer is willing to defer gratification.

I found his explanation easy to understand, the metaphor a perfect fit. I'm no genius when it comes to stocks, bonds bull, bear, shorts, futures and all that financial jargon I can't seem to keep straight. I didn't hear him getting into the stock market functionality in any detail, only the high level concept of a stock market which people generally understand. I've dabbled in stocks 20 years ago and I see how the market is now rigged. Bitshares is technology that level the playing field for everyone and I can see what the major ramifications of that are. It was an easy sell for a fairly unsophisticated user like me with only limited knowledge of the financial world.

The stock market IS a different animal than what bitcoin represents. Other than the foundational blockchain technology concept, bitshares and bitcoin have little in common. They both address different needs.

Bitshares however provides a superset of functionality that includes cryptoshares that will pay dividends which could be used like a cryptocurrency tho that isn't it's primary role. Just like any asset, shares of a company can be used as a currency, but so can sea shells. Whether that happens or not is not the focus of bitshares success. The measure of bitshares success is whether people see the value in it from what it can do, and that takes time. Marketing of bitshares is as huge an effort as the software is.

I see value in the overall strategy of Invictus products. I'm highly interested in the DNS and Keehotee projects. They will provide HUGE value and I'm a bit unclear how all of these pieces will be rolled out and integrated. Earlier videos and discussions painted a fairly clear picture of the "family of projects", but it's not clear to me if the other projects are moving forward with the same energy and ambition as the bitshares platform. I've looked for more info but I find it far more lacking and less up to date than info on bitshares.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 05:50:27 am by Thom »
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