Breaking down voting - Don't vote for happyshares / "pay back delegates"

[bitmeat]

Yay! Competition!

[happyshares]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

Hi profitofthegods,

at first glance payback delegates seems to be an appealing business idea. Nevertheless i have decided to cancel the HappyShares venture. After long but fruitful conversations with forum members i got the enlightenment, that payback delegates act counterproductive to BitShares health. This decision was all the harder, since the platform was already nearing publication. Taking advantage of our experience we will soon deliver a voting related webtool to the community.
So, in hope that our decision prevents other guys going in the wrong direction, we want to lead by example.
If you welcome this decision please vote for

Code: [Select]

wallet_approve_delegate voteexplorer.bs-prosper true

[bitbro]

The issue is that Bts x has been released without any functionality.  Oh yeah, Bts, bitcoin can be "currency" - no sorry, they can't. There is no gainful functionality here yet, and until there is people will continue to misunderstand the project.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Riverhead]

My main issue with that is I don't have the first clue who would reinvest into growing the DAC, and don't really have the time or motivation to find out. Think of me as a casual user who just wants to spend a little time using Bitshares, but doesn't have lots of time to spare for becoming a part of the community and getting to know people and so on. Finding out who to vote for seems to me at the moment like something which would require a significant commitment of time and effort, but yet I get nothing back (directly) in return for that effort.

I understand that you would like everyone to be altruistic and to be deeply commited to this project you care about and put effort into making sure it succeeds, but as soon as the user-base expands beyond the small group of commited community members who have been involved in the project for a long time to include general users, that is just not going to happen.

I feel a lot of people fall into your category of adopter and will continue to grow.  However, to vote for "good actors" may not require getting to know each candidate.  Looking at the delegate tab in the client you can base your voting choices on a couple rules of thumb:


1) Who has proven reliability with a high percentage and number of blocks produced?  These people will be the most stable.
2) Do you want to support someone that has multiple delegates or not?  Vote according to preference
3) Do you feel the delegate payments should be higher or lower based on what balance you want to see between shareholder value and customer costs.


Answering these questions while looking at the delegate tab would quickly ween down the list of candidates and allow you to participate in determining the course of the market without a huge time commitment.

[bytemaster]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

They are doing a job on your behalf (validating the blocks) and their margins are very thin meaning there isn't all that much "profit" in it.   You want to vote because the delegates are working to make your stake more valuable so you vote for those you trust to REINVEST into growing the DAC.

My main issue with that is I don't have the first clue who would reinvest into growing the DAC, and don't really have the time or motivation to find out. Think of me as a casual user who just wants to spend a little time using Bitshares, but doesn't have lots of time to spare for becoming a part of the community and getting to know people and so on. Finding out who to vote for seems to me at the moment like something which would require a significant commitment of time and effort, but yet I get nothing back (directly) in return for that effort.

I understand that you would like everyone to be altruistic and to be deeply commited to this project you care about and put effort into making sure it succeeds, but as soon as the user-base expands beyond the small group of commited community members who have been involved in the project for a long time to include general users, that is just not going to happen.

And this is why we have automatic voting based upon the simple assumption that you trust the person you downloaded the wallet from.   For this type of user you care about the service the network provides and want it to 'just work'.   We also have a built in recommendation system which means you can simply trust your friendly neighborhood DAC expert to make good recommendations and vote accordingly.

[bitmeat]

Newbie question - how do you guys take those snapshots of your screens?

I just use PrntScrn on PC and Cmd+Shift+4 on Mac. You have to specify what platform. SnagIt is a very good software but might cost $$.

[profitofthegods]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

They are doing a job on your behalf (validating the blocks) and their margins are very thin meaning there isn't all that much "profit" in it.   You want to vote because the delegates are working to make your stake more valuable so you vote for those you trust to REINVEST into growing the DAC.

My main issue with that is I don't have the first clue who would reinvest into growing the DAC, and don't really have the time or motivation to find out. Think of me as a casual user who just wants to spend a little time using Bitshares, but doesn't have lots of time to spare for becoming a part of the community and getting to know people and so on. Finding out who to vote for seems to me at the moment like something which would require a significant commitment of time and effort, but yet I get nothing back (directly) in return for that effort.

I understand that you would like everyone to be altruistic and to be deeply commited to this project you care about and put effort into making sure it succeeds, but as soon as the user-base expands beyond the small group of commited community members who have been involved in the project for a long time to include general users, that is just not going to happen.

[santaclause102]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

If you are a stakeholder you are motivated to vote for whoever can provide the most trustworthy and reliable service to secure the network. If you as a shareholder would vote against this principle you increase the chance that your stake gets worth less because the system is less secure.

I highly recommend listening to this. http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-129-dogeparty-and-delegated-proof-of-stake
Pay back delegates could become a problem if everyone has that logic. But what you get back from them is tiny compared to the potential losses from an unstable / too centralized system. We have to educate shareholders about this though! Or form a consensus among slate selectors that pay back delegates are not acceptable.
But Bitcoin / POW has the exact same problem. See the interview...

[bytemaster]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

They are doing a job on your behalf (validating the blocks) and their margins are very thin meaning there isn't all that much "profit" in it.   You want to vote because the delegates are working to make your stake more valuable so you vote for those you trust to REINVEST into growing the DAC.   

[profitofthegods]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

[puppies]

Ah.   Apparently my reading comprehension is lacking this late at night.

[Simeon II]

Unmaximize the window and it will switch from two columns with less info to one column with more info including pay rate.  You just can't look at top 101 and standby side by side.

I know, I figured that out  - see my post. Still weird –haven not seen this in any other app.

[edit]
My experience suggest that probably the first few columns are with defined width and the rest is left for the last one (i.e. last one uses whatever % is left) . In full screen not enough space is left, so it is cut out.

[puppies]

This issue is not solved in v. 0.2.2 win7.
I am again missing the column (weird enough on of the two I most care about – pay pate) in full screen mode. Said column magically appears in smaller screen.

Unmaximize the window and it will switch from two columns with less info to one column with more info including pay rate.  You just can't look at top 101 and standby side by side.

[Simeon II]

This issue is not solved in v. 0.2.2 win7.
I am again missing the column (weird enough on of the two I most care about – pay pate) in full screen mode. Said column magically appears in smaller screen.

[Simeon II]

I think, I will stick with the buggy 0.2.0 for now.

 Too many break-through ideas for my likings:
-I should take good care of my public keys (instead of just the private ones);

- I will send to names not accounts;

- I would not always be able to find/see my transaction history (but my received amount will be fine) – this is the most troubling though –what if I expect 100 BTSX from 50 people at one and the same time, how do I figure out who paid and who did not?

Receiving shouldn't be a problem, the receivers account should pick up all transactions and report them in the ledger just fine.   We will get most of these bugs worked out in the next week.

I hope you know that this not always the case now, right!

I am working on this. Please pm me any threads of people having this problem so that I won't miss them.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5799.msg78740#msg78740