Author Topic: 5 people control about 1/3 of the delegates.  (Read 14533 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
if it is easy for delegates to see who voted for them, why won't each voter gradually drift toward the delegates that give them the highest immediate cash in return, even off-chain? this seems like an existential threat to the system, it dampens the idea that DPOS will be a force of nature, and weakens the power of decentralization by vote.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966
POW has the same problem. We should ban "pay back delegates". It is not perfect but it works for Bitcoin. There are also no pay back mining pools.
I think it might not be a problem if all shareholders that vote are educated enough that such voting behaviour harms their assets / the network they own and that (probably by far) is a bigger loss on average than the tiny gains through paid back tx fees. That is how I think about it right now. But please feel free to discuss it! I tried to spark of a solid discussion there but no one really talks about it...

you should only ban what you can enforce.  Can you really enforce a no-pay?  Whats to stop people from paying for "marketing" and it goes to a mass sender going out to their secret backers?
If one delegate is beginning to prove his marketing efforts it will pressure the others to do the same.
I meant a "soft ban" = discussing it, educating people that the personal benefits for them are tiny but the potential harm to the network can be big which harms them a lot as they are shareholders. "Ban" is maybe not the right word. More something like a "social ban". This seems to be against crypto principles but the byzantine generals problems has not been solved by anyone in the space yet. POW, POS and DPOS all have the potential for centralization and it can not be avoided solely by technical means (up to now, lets see).

The problem with a "social ban" is you leave the option to pay for votes only to users already willing to ignore the social norms.  So you take away the quite useful tool of compensating your supporters from those who are willing to follow your rules, which makes it harder for "good" actors to succeed.

So again, I'd really discourage the "banning" of tactics that are actually able to be banned, and don't rely on people following rules.  Good people will follow rules to their detriment, bad people will ignore the rules because nothing makes them stop and they'll have an easier time onboarding support because they have a tool in their arsenal those following the rules do not.
Quote
The problem with a "social ban" is you leave the option to pay for votes only to users already willing to ignore the social norms.  So you take away the quite useful tool of compensating your supporters from those who are willing to follow your rules, which makes it harder for "good" actors to succeed.
I did not quite get that paragraph.
Quote
only to users already willing to ignore the social norms
that would still decrease the number of those who vote for pay back delegates.
Quote
the quite useful tool of compensating your supporters
If you look at the system as a whole it is not a useful tool to compensate those who vote for you.
Have you read this https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966  ?

merockstar

  • Guest
how much does it cost?

would it really really help, or will this unique delegate problem hammer itself out in no time?

my campaign platform would be: "I don't really give a shit if you vote for me, I'm just trying to help."

right now, 17 BTSX to become a delegate. You don't need anything too fancy for the vps at the moment - $10-30/month?

There are ~1000 other delegates out there, so you have to weigh the possibility of being elected to the top 101 with the cost of being a delegate.

so you're saying there are plenty of unique delegates out there, they just haven't been voted in yet?

Offline maqifrnswa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
how much does it cost?

would it really really help, or will this unique delegate problem hammer itself out in no time?

my campaign platform would be: "I don't really give a shit if you vote for me, I'm just trying to help."

right now, 17 BTSX to become a delegate. You don't need anything too fancy for the vps at the moment - $10-30/month?

There are ~1000 other delegates out there, so you have to weigh the possibility of being elected to the top 101 with the cost of being a delegate.

EDIT: Either way, it's probably also good to learn about the delegates out there and vote for the "good" ones. And educate others about the "good" ones.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline GaltReport

I'm confused how I would run a delegate - I see I can register my ident, is it just as simple as doing that and then getting people to vote for me?

I think the tools are fine but the explanation for people who haven't followed every dry run are sorely lacking.  Once people understand how to be delegates or what it requires vs what its rewards are, we'll probably see less centralization.

agreed. I didn't realize there was such need for delegates. should I rent out a vps and (try) to get the code compiled for the sake of helping?

there is a need for delegates, ideally they would be 101 individuals with standing and technical experience in the community trusted to (1) not screw the system and (2) maintain/pay for their node.

to do it see:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/DPOS-initial-delegate-setup

To be a delegate you just need to:
1) pay to be a delegate (set up an account, give it some BTS, register the account, register the account as a delegate)
2) set "wallet_enable_delegate_block_production $ACCOUNT true"
3) UNLOCK YOUR WALLET and keep it unlocked!!!! set a long time out (that was my mistake at first)
4) somewhat optional, but nice to do:
network_set_advanced_node_parameters {"desired_number_of_connections":50, "maximum_number_of_connections":200}

benefits: you get a share of the transaction fees (pay_rate*10/101*transaction_fees_per_day)
costs: maintaining a vps, having to be on top of things

in theory, you should campaign and be well known. In practice, for now, it is dominated by the big accounts giving themselves a large number of delegate spots.

Thanks, I will work on this. I managed to get it installed on ubuntu using these instructions:

https://github.com/dacsunlimited/bitsharesx/blob/master/BUILD_UBUNTU.md

just haven't tried running it yet.

merockstar

  • Guest
I'm confused how I would run a delegate - I see I can register my ident, is it just as simple as doing that and then getting people to vote for me?

I think the tools are fine but the explanation for people who haven't followed every dry run are sorely lacking.  Once people understand how to be delegates or what it requires vs what its rewards are, we'll probably see less centralization.

agreed. I didn't realize there was such need for delegates. should I rent out a vps and (try) to get the code compiled for the sake of helping?

there is a need for delegates, ideally they would be 101 individuals with standing and technical experience in the community trusted to (1) not screw the system and (2) maintain/pay for their node.

to do it see:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/DPOS-initial-delegate-setup

To be a delegate you just need to:
1) pay to be a delegate (set up an account, give it some BTS, register the account, register the account as a delegate)
2) set "wallet_enable_delegate_block_production $ACCOUNT true"
3) UNLOCK YOUR WALLET and keep it unlocked!!!! set a long time out (that was my mistake at first)
4) somewhat optional, but nice to do:
network_set_advanced_node_parameters {"desired_number_of_connections":50, "maximum_number_of_connections":200}

benefits: you get a share of the transaction fees (pay_rate*10/101*transaction_fees_per_day)
costs: maintaining a vps, having to be on top of things

in theory, you should campaign and be well known. In practice, for now, it is dominated by the big accounts giving themselves a large number of delegate spots.

how much does it cost?

would it really really help, or will this unique delegate problem hammer itself out in no time?

my campaign platform would be: "I don't really give a shit if you vote for me, I'm just trying to help."

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2821
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
To be a delegate, It's not about a step by step guide.
Like the traditional IT service, you need a professional system administrators, to ensure 24 hours of service.

Offline AdamBLevine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • Let's Talk Bitcoin!
if it is easy for delegates to see who voted for them, why won't each voter gradually drift toward the delegates that give them the highest immediate cash in return, even off-chain? this seems like an existential threat to the system, it dampens the idea that DPOS will be a force of nature, and weakens the power of decentralization by vote.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966
POW has the same problem. We should ban "pay back delegates". It is not perfect but it works for Bitcoin. There are also no pay back mining pools.
I think it might not be a problem if all shareholders that vote are educated enough that such voting behaviour harms their assets / the network they own and that (probably by far) is a bigger loss on average than the tiny gains through paid back tx fees. That is how I think about it right now. But please feel free to discuss it! I tried to spark of a solid discussion there but no one really talks about it...

you should only ban what you can enforce.  Can you really enforce a no-pay?  Whats to stop people from paying for "marketing" and it goes to a mass sender going out to their secret backers?
If one delegate is beginning to prove his marketing efforts it will pressure the others to do the same.
I meant a "soft ban" = discussing it, educating people that the personal benefits for them are tiny but the potential harm to the network can be big which harms them a lot as they are shareholders. "Ban" is maybe not the right word. More something like a "social ban". This seems to be against crypto principles but the byzantine generals problems has not been solved by anyone in the space yet. POW, POS and DPOS all have the potential for centralization and it can not be avoided solely by technical means (up to now, lets see).

The problem with a "social ban" is you leave the option to pay for votes only to users already willing to ignore the social norms.  So you take away the quite useful tool of compensating your supporters from those who are willing to follow your rules, which makes it harder for "good" actors to succeed.

So again, I'd really discourage the "banning" of tactics that are actually able to be banned, and don't rely on people following rules.  Good people will follow rules to their detriment, bad people will ignore the rules because nothing makes them stop and they'll have an easier time onboarding support because they have a tool in their arsenal those following the rules do not.


Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline maqifrnswa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
I'm confused how I would run a delegate - I see I can register my ident, is it just as simple as doing that and then getting people to vote for me?

I think the tools are fine but the explanation for people who haven't followed every dry run are sorely lacking.  Once people understand how to be delegates or what it requires vs what its rewards are, we'll probably see less centralization.

agreed. I didn't realize there was such need for delegates. should I rent out a vps and (try) to get the code compiled for the sake of helping?

there is a need for delegates, ideally they would be 101 individuals with standing and technical experience in the community trusted to (1) not screw the system and (2) maintain/pay for their node.

to do it see:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares_toolkit/wiki/DPOS-initial-delegate-setup

To be a delegate you just need to:
1) pay to be a delegate (set up an account, give it some BTS, register the account, register the account as a delegate)
2) set "wallet_enable_delegate_block_production $ACCOUNT true"
3) UNLOCK YOUR WALLET and keep it unlocked!!!! set a long time out (that was my mistake at first)
4) somewhat optional, but nice to do:
network_set_advanced_node_parameters {"desired_number_of_connections":50, "maximum_number_of_connections":200}

benefits: you get a share of the transaction fees (pay_rate*10/101*transaction_fees_per_day)
costs: maintaining a vps, having to be on top of things

in theory, you should campaign and be well known. In practice, for now, it is dominated by the big accounts giving themselves a large number of delegate spots.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline maqifrnswa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
if it is easy for delegates to see who voted for them, why won't each voter gradually drift toward the delegates that give them the highest immediate cash in return, even off-chain? this seems like an existential threat to the system, it dampens the idea that DPOS will be a force of nature, and weakens the power of decentralization by vote.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966
POW has the same problem. We should ban "pay back delegates". It is not perfect but it works for Bitcoin. There are also no pay back mining pools.
I think it might not be a problem if all shareholders that vote are educated enough that such voting behaviour harms their assets / the network they own and that (probably by far) is a bigger loss on average than the tiny gains through paid back tx fees. That is how I think about it right now. But please feel free to discuss it! I tried to spark of a solid discussion there but no one really talks about it...

I see no problem with pay back. It essentially is the equivalent of a group of people electing one person to to represent them as a delegate.

Isn't pay back the equivalent of a mining pool? people are too small to be a delegate on their own so they pitch in their votes to get a shared delegate spot.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

merockstar

  • Guest
I'm confused how I would run a delegate - I see I can register my ident, is it just as simple as doing that and then getting people to vote for me?

I think the tools are fine but the explanation for people who haven't followed every dry run are sorely lacking.  Once people understand how to be delegates or what it requires vs what its rewards are, we'll probably see less centralization.

agreed. I didn't realize there was such need for delegates. should I rent out a vps and (try) to get the code compiled for the sake of helping?

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
if it is easy for delegates to see who voted for them, why won't each voter gradually drift toward the delegates that give them the highest immediate cash in return, even off-chain? this seems like an existential threat to the system, it dampens the idea that DPOS will be a force of nature, and weakens the power of decentralization by vote.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966
POW has the same problem. We should ban "pay back delegates". It is not perfect but it works for Bitcoin. There are also no pay back mining pools.
I think it might not be a problem if all shareholders that vote are educated enough that such voting behaviour harms their assets / the network they own and that (probably by far) is a bigger loss on average than the tiny gains through paid back tx fees. That is how I think about it right now. But please feel free to discuss it! I tried to spark of a solid discussion there but no one really talks about it...

you should only ban what you can enforce.  Can you really enforce a no-pay?  Whats to stop people from paying for "marketing" and it goes to a mass sender going out to their secret backers?
If one delegate is beginning to prove his marketing efforts it will pressure the others to do the same.
I meant a "soft ban" = discussing it, educating people that the personal benefits for them are tiny but the potential harm to the network can be big which harms them a lot as they are shareholders. "Ban" is maybe not the right word. More something like a "social ban". This seems to be against crypto principles but the byzantine generals problems has not been solved by anyone in the space yet, not totally at least. POW, POS and DPOS all have the potential for centralization and it can not be avoided solely by technical means (up to now, lets see). 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:34:29 pm by delulo »

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2821
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
I'm confused how I would run a delegate - I see I can register my ident, is it just as simple as doing that and then getting people to vote for me?

I think the tools are fine but the explanation for people who haven't followed every dry run are sorely lacking.  Once people understand how to be delegates or what it requires vs what its rewards are, we'll probably see less centralization.
Rent a VPS server ->  build the client -> register a delegate account -> ask for vote -> generate block

You can set up a team to be the delegate.
just looking for a technology partner.  :)

Offline AdamBLevine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • Let's Talk Bitcoin!
if it is easy for delegates to see who voted for them, why won't each voter gradually drift toward the delegates that give them the highest immediate cash in return, even off-chain? this seems like an existential threat to the system, it dampens the idea that DPOS will be a force of nature, and weakens the power of decentralization by vote.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966
POW has the same problem. We should ban "pay back delegates". It is not perfect but it works for Bitcoin. There are also no pay back mining pools.
I think it might not be a problem if all shareholders that vote are educated enough that such voting behaviour harms their assets / the network they own and that (probably by far) is a bigger loss on average than the tiny gains through paid back tx fees. That is how I think about it right now. But please feel free to discuss it! I tried to spark of a solid discussion there but no one really talks about it...

you should only ban what you can enforce.  Can you really enforce a no-pay?  Whats to stop people from paying for "marketing" and it goes to a mass sender going out to their secret backers?
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline AdamBLevine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • Let's Talk Bitcoin!
I'm confused how I would run a delegate - I see I can register my ident, is it just as simple as doing that and then getting people to vote for me?

I think the tools are fine but the explanation for people who haven't followed every dry run are sorely lacking.  Once people understand how to be delegates or what it requires vs what its rewards are, we'll probably see less centralization.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
if it is easy for delegates to see who voted for them, why won't each voter gradually drift toward the delegates that give them the highest immediate cash in return, even off-chain? this seems like an existential threat to the system, it dampens the idea that DPOS will be a force of nature, and weakens the power of decentralization by vote.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966
POW has the same problem. We should ban "pay back delegates". It is not perfect but it works for Bitcoin. There are also no pay back mining pools.
I think it might not be a problem if all shareholders that vote are educated enough that such voting behaviour harms their assets / the network they own and that (probably by far) is a bigger loss on average than the tiny gains through paid back tx fees. That is how I think about it right now. But please feel free to discuss it! I tried to spark of a solid discussion there but no one really talks about it...