Ethereum's IPO (Again)

[Riverhead]

I wasn't going to rat you out

[bitmeat]

To clarify by "play with" I meant use "the fuel" as a developer, not speculate.

[Riverhead]

There's a section of the agreement that says you agree you're not a speculative purchaser. I get it but I'm not sure you can really control why someone buys something or how they'll spend it.

[bitmeat]

Got 20K eth to play with... Will be interesting

[Shentist]

i don't invest . i am already comitted . in bytemaster i trust . ok, to much pressure 

[Riverhead]

If we can get BTSX, VOTE, and DNS to grow to something close to Litecoin then our development funds from AGS will exceed their $14MM

 

[bytemaster]

So it's raised about $14MM USD so far.  That's a lot of trust....or hope....or something.

If we can get BTSX, VOTE, and DNS to grow to something close to Litecoin then our development funds from AGS will exceed their $14MM

[Riverhead]

So it's raised about $14MM USD so far.  That's a lot of trust....or hope....or something.

[Overthetop]

22,802.01119107 BTC ??

[Tuck Fheman]

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Thoughts?

They don't take you to Maven Central do they? 

[liondani]

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Thoughts?

[fuzzy]

It is amazing, in fact, to watch all those IPOs (non-IPOS, call them what you want) and the variety of ways everyone is coming his own new ‘improved’ way to make its distribution.
What is really astonishing is that practically all of them make little to no sense. Not because we are on this forum, but because it is the truth – AGS being pretty much the only exception.

Initially I didn't appreciate how elegant and fair AGS was. Its surprising that others are not copying it.

I have a good feeling about our Bitshares, If only the AGS was converted into something else so that the private key didn't have the risk of getting compromised.

there has been a great deal of hate sent toward invictus for AGS from people who do not understand that real, quality software needs solid seed funding that cant (easily) be dumped on by outside forces.  Invictus protected their entire operation (and its investors) by building a solid capital foundation instead of building it on quicksand.

I was initially in that camp...until I realized the greater purpose.

[sumantso]

It is amazing, in fact, to watch all those IPOs (non-IPOS, call them what you want) and the variety of ways everyone is coming his own new ‘improved’ way to make its distribution.
What is really astonishing is that practically all of them make little to no sense. Not because we are on this forum, but because it is the truth – AGS being pretty much the only exception.

Initially I didn't appreciate how elegant and fair AGS was. Its surprising that others are not copying it.

I have a good feeling about our Bitshares, If only the AGS was converted into something else so that the private key didn't have the risk of getting compromised.

[CLains]

Yes, I have no idea what people donating the first day were thinking. The free market isn't all that rational.

[CLains]

7000 BTC and running..

I'm gonna go ahead and guess 50 000 BTC by the end of this crowdfunding.

[fuzzy]

Ethereum has been guaranteed to be a success from the conception...nothing else really matters.  You'll see what I mean soon enough.  Peace.

[toast]

They got off to a very strong start the first 24 hours, especially considering the IPO announcement was a surprise.

But then I read this bitcointalk and it got me wondering...

We won't even get into the fact that IPO is just a fraud to create as much premine as you want by creating mule accounts, sending BTC to yourself with the mule accounts, then the BTC returns to you + the infinite premine.

-.-
obviously they won't do this because you can monitor spending and unlike AGS they don't need to spend it before the sale is done

I don't understand what you are saying. I think the guy I quoted meant that the people in charge of the IPO could buy the ether at presale with bitcoins, since the bitcoins come right back to them they can do it over and over, making the amount of capital raised appear to be much higher than it actually is, which attracts more investors and at the same time locks in a bigger slice of the pie for themselves - at an actual cost that is a fraction of what others are paying.

Yes, and I am saying it would be impossible for them to do that, since it would require signatures from 3 of their 4 multisig owners, and also very foolish, because everyone can watch them do it.

This criticism also applies to AGS, and unlike ether, I3 cannot prove they didn't do that.

Agreed! I3 should clarify this: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4958.0 .

For the record I think it's pretty clear that they didn't

[charleshoskinson]

I don't understand what you are saying. I think the guy I quoted meant that the people in charge of the IPO could buy the ether at presale with bitcoins, since the bitcoins come right back to them they can do it over and over, making the amount of capital raised appear to be much higher than it actually is, which attracts more investors and at the same time locks in a bigger slice of the pie for themselves - at an actual cost that is a fraction of what others are paying.

Maybe he should invest some time into learning how bitcoin actually works. https://blockchain.info/address/36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2 is the purchase address for the ether sale. Notice no bitcoin have actually moved from it? I understand that some in this community disagree with the design decisions of the Ethereum project; however, please refrain from suggesting their integrity is somehow compromised.

Second, the ether sale is not an IPO. The terms of sale clearly state this fact. Third, there has ever only been one ether sale. It was delayed many times because the parties involved wanted to both release several proof of concepts and get the legal framework right. There was a huge amount of due diligence that went into the ethereum project.

[toast]

They got off to a very strong start the first 24 hours, especially considering the IPO announcement was a surprise.

But then I read this bitcointalk and it got me wondering...

We won't even get into the fact that IPO is just a fraud to create as much premine as you want by creating mule accounts, sending BTC to yourself with the mule accounts, then the BTC returns to you + the infinite premine.

-.-
obviously they won't do this because you can monitor spending and unlike AGS they don't need to spend it before the sale is done

I don't understand what you are saying. I think the guy I quoted meant that the people in charge of the IPO could buy the ether at presale with bitcoins, since the bitcoins come right back to them they can do it over and over, making the amount of capital raised appear to be much higher than it actually is, which attracts more investors and at the same time locks in a bigger slice of the pie for themselves - at an actual cost that is a fraction of what others are paying.

Yes, and I am saying it would be impossible for them to do that, since it would require signatures from 3 of their 4 multisig owners, and also very foolish, because everyone can watch them do it.

This criticism also applies to AGS, and unlike ether, I3 cannot prove they didn't do that.

[donkeypong]

They got off to a very strong start the first 24 hours, especially considering the IPO announcement was a surprise.

But then I read this bitcointalk and it got me wondering...

We won't even get into the fact that IPO is just a fraud to create as much premine as you want by creating mule accounts, sending BTC to yourself with the mule accounts, then the BTC returns to you + the infinite premine.

-.-
obviously they won't do this because you can monitor spending and unlike AGS they don't need to spend it before the sale is done

I don't understand what you are saying. I think the guy I quoted meant that the people in charge of the IPO could buy the ether at presale with bitcoins, since the bitcoins come right back to them they can do it over and over, making the amount of capital raised appear to be much higher than it actually is, which attracts more investors and at the same time locks in a bigger slice of the pie for themselves - at an actual cost that is a fraction of what others are paying.

Maybe Hosk will weigh in on that if we haven't driven him away again.

[mint chocolate chip]

They got off to a very strong start the first 24 hours, especially considering the IPO announcement was a surprise.

But then I read this bitcointalk and it got me wondering...

We won't even get into the fact that IPO is just a fraud to create as much premine as you want by creating mule accounts, sending BTC to yourself with the mule accounts, then the BTC returns to you + the infinite premine.

-.-
obviously they won't do this because you can monitor spending and unlike AGS they don't need to spend it before the sale is done

I don't understand what you are saying. I think the guy I quoted meant that the people in charge of the IPO could buy the ether at presale with bitcoins, since the bitcoins come right back to them they can do it over and over, making the amount of capital raised appear to be much higher than it actually is, which attracts more investors and at the same time locks in a bigger slice of the pie for themselves - at an actual cost that is a fraction of what others are paying.

[toast]

They got off to a very strong start the first 24 hours, especially considering the IPO announcement was a surprise.

But then I read this bitcointalk and it got me wondering...

We won't even get into the fact that IPO is just a fraud to create as much premine as you want by creating mule accounts, sending BTC to yourself with the mule accounts, then the BTC returns to you + the infinite premine.

-.-
obviously they won't do this because you can monitor spending and unlike AGS they don't need to spend it before the sale is done

[mint chocolate chip]

They got off to a very strong start the first 24 hours, especially considering the IPO announcement was a surprise.

But then I read this bitcointalk and it got me wondering...

We won't even get into the fact that IPO is just a fraud to create as much premine as you want by creating mule accounts, sending BTC to yourself with the mule accounts, then the BTC returns to you + the infinite premine.

[bitmeat]

Smart contracts are just scripts that live on the chain. I'm sure it will be added to BTSX after we see the assets up and running.

What I love about the scripting is that it is a) decentralized - lives on the chain b) doesn't require a hard fork to implement a new feature.

The term is "programmable money".

[bytemaster]

For any number of millions of dollars donated to Ethereum, what is the total market cap at launch?

And inflation is 26 percent, going exclusively to miners?

Yes, inflation going exclusively to miners.

Say they receive 10000 BTC in their IPO. Assuming the price stays at their imposed value of 2,000 ETH per BTC, the total market cap of current supply at launch will then be:

10000BTC + 10000 BTC *19.8% (dev premine) = 11980 BTC.

If the price somehow remains fixed during the first year, the market cap at year 1 will be 11980*1.26 = 15094 BTC due to inflation.

So they are projecting a 10 Million valuation and selling ETH at this price...  That valuation puts ETH at 50% of BTSX right now. 

[donkeypong]

Ethereum has some powerful friends. That's one of the things that bothers me about them. Remember, they have been "self-funded" for some months now.

What you talking bout donkeypongiss?

I know little about Ethereum, and compared to you I know less than nothing. But need I remind you of your famous video controversy? I'm not naive enough to believe that Ethereum is under the control of Goldman Sachs. That said, you did a great job lining up many 'best and brightest' types from the programming and financial worlds. I do know that the average Joe would not have been able to live on savings over the last few months, constantly putting off this IPO, helping a whole team of people live on their own dime, while jump-starting a new business of such a large magnitude, and yet that's exactly what all of you guys did. Someone has kept it going financially during this time and I don't think that you and Vitalik have been the only force behind its marketing machine and all this pomp. "Powerful friends" can be a good thing, but forgive me if it provides me with some pause. Look, I am hoping to invest in this project myself, not because I see it as an investment, but because I'd like to see it succeed. Whatever the heck it ends up becoming will provide some benefits to society. I just think it may be more centralized than people realize.

[svk]

For any number of millions of dollars donated to Ethereum, what is the total market cap at launch?

And inflation is 26 percent, going exclusively to miners?

Yes, inflation going exclusively to miners.

Say they receive 10000 BTC in their IPO. Assuming the price stays at their imposed value of 2,000 ETH per BTC, the total market cap of current supply at launch will then be:

10000BTC + 10000 BTC *19.8% (dev premine) = 11980 BTC.

If the price somehow remains fixed during the first year, the market cap at year 1 will be 11980*1.26 = 15094 BTC due to inflation.

[bitbro]

Thanks for your post! Would you agree on the following: A smart contract is everything that is conditional + involves more than one economic entity (doesn't have to be human) + uses a blockchain to store the data, for example:
1) Any multisig transaction
2) Ethereum style conditional payments that can be activated with ether (many different smart contracts all on the ethereum blockchain)
3) A Bitshares style DAC. Lottery for example says "IF you buy a lottery ticket THEN you will get a (a) % chance of winning (b) (which depends on how many other others are playing) which is paid out in way (c). Every "smart contract" has its own chain.
 
(2) and (3) are basically the same (both are smart contracts and in both systems the contracts have to be activated with the native currency) except:
- one blockchain vs. many blockchains
- C++ vs. Ethereum's custom scripting languages. Both are turring complete.

I can see clearly now, like Bob Marley



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CLains]

For any number of millions of dollars donated to Ethereum, what is the total market cap at launch?

And inflation is 26 percent, going exclusively to miners?

[testz]

Thanks for your post! Would you agree...

Yes, I completely agree.

[santaclause102]

Thanks for your post! Would you agree on the following: A smart contract is everything that is conditional + involves more than one economic entity (doesn't have to be human) + uses a blockchain to store the data, for example:
1) Any multisig transaction
2) Ethereum style conditional payments that can be activated with ether (many different smart contracts all on the ethereum blockchain)
3) A Bitshares style DAC. Lottery for example says "IF you buy a lottery ticket THEN you will get a (a) % chance of winning (b) (which depends on how many other others are playing) which is paid out in way (c). Every "smart contract" has its own chain.
 
(2) and (3) are basically the same (both are smart contracts and in both systems the contracts have to be activated with the native currency) except:
- one blockchain vs. many blockchains
- C++ vs. Ethereum's custom scripting languages. Both are turring complete.

[testz]

testz and happypatty, can could you define "smart contract" for me? I'd rather call it conditional payment which is a less obscure word. But I am interested what you think of when saying that!

Generally smart contract it's a logic of some DAC/process, but BitShares give you toolkit which you can use to add your logic over blockchain using C++, Ethereum gives you the system where you can write logic at Ethereum language and store it at blockchain. In Ethereum system contract activates when your send transaction to contract address and maybe they can be activated at specific time.
 
As example you can look at https://www.ethereum.org/ at the middle of the page you will see contract examples: scroll left/right until you get crowd fund example, part of it:

Code: [Select]

if msg.data[0] == 0:
    # Start a campaign, data [goal, time limit]
    id = contract.storage[-1]
    contract.storage[-1] = id + 2^128
    contract.storage[id] = msg.sender // Campaign creator
    contract.storage[id + 1] = msg.data[1] // Goal
    contract.storage[id + 2] = block.timestamp + msg.data[2] // Time limit
    contract.storage[id + 3] = id + 5 // Start recording donations here
    // contract.storage[id + 4] is a running counter
    return(id)
elif msg.data[0] == 1:
    # Contribute to a campaign [id]
    id = msg.data[1]
    val = contract.storage[id + 4]
...

This is how will look Ethereum contract in Ethereum language which do basic crowd funding scenario.

[svk]

Another "bad" IPO in my opinion. It continues the trend of "hidden" premines that you have to read the small print to find out about, and as someone else pointed out, the price seems awfully high for the target total supply. I'm not sure about that supply though, couldn't quickly confirm the numbers on that.

About the premines, for those who didn't read the fine print, there are three distinct premine pots: the first goes to the IPO backers, the second goes to early contributors (developers), and the third will go to the Ethereum Foundation.

So we have the IPO pot, which is proportional to the BTC received in the IPO. Then we have the dev premine for Butalik and the other devs, which will be equivalent to 9.9% of the BTC donations, you can think of this as a personal bonus I guess. Finally there's the pot for the Ethereum Foundation, which will also be equivalent to 9.9% of the BTD donations.

So the Ethereum team will have the BTC donations, then the devs will have Ether worth 9.9% of those donations, and the foundation will also have Ether worth 9.9% of those donations.

It's the equivalent of I3 adding 19.8% of the 2 billion BTSX on top of the 2 billion, then giving it to themselves. Doesn't seem fair to me.

On top of all this there's an inflation target of 26% per year through mining. I'm not sure what the current inflation is for BTC, but 26% seems high to me.

[santaclause102]

 testz and happypatty, can could you define "smart contract" for me? I'd rather call it conditional payment which is a less obscure word. But I am interested what you think of when saying that!

[liondani]

In any case if we see that Ethereum smart contract works realy nice we can integrate it inside BitShares, replace POW by DPOS and launch BitShares Ethereum which honor AGS/PTS/ETH as 25/25/50 or 30/30/40. 

What if they like DPOS and they integrate it to ethereum?

We will have 2 same "products" from 2 different communitys...

So which one will survive? 

The project that will have more support...

The have allready collected 3619 BTC ($2,243,000) It seems they will have the most succesfull IPO... 

[bitmeat]

Smart contracts are a very big deal. However I suspect there will be A LOT of issues around them.

In fact we have second mover advantage here - watch and learn, then collect feedback, improve and integrate.

[testz]

I really like the Turing completeness of eth but mining is a no go IMHO .. anyway as I don't plan to start yet another flamewar or that topic I stick to:

thanks for sharing

I read all about Ethereum IPO and my personal opinion that BitShares AGS IPO was much better.

What about this?: "It is very likely that alternative versions of Ethereum (“alt-etherea” or “forks”) will be released as separate blockchains, and these chains will compete against the official Ethereum for value. Successfully purchasing ETH from the Genesis Sale only guarantees that you will receive ETH on the official network, not any forks."

In any case if we see that Ethereum smart contract works realy nice we can integrate it inside BitShares, replace POW by DPOS and launch BitShares Ethereum which honor AGS/PTS/ETH as 25/25/50 or 30/30/40. 

[bitmeat]

What's the best reason to invest in Ethereum?

Vitalik is a smart puppy.
Innovations.
Smart contracts for code and DApps on the chain.

What's the best reason not to invest in Ethereum?

Investment is only rewarded a small % of ether.
Inflation will eat profits away.
Mining.

[Tuck Fheman]

What's the best reason to invest in Ethereum?

What's the best reason not to invest in Ethereum?

[xeroc]

I really like the Turing completeness of eth but mining is a no go IMHO .. anyway as I don't plan to start yet another flamewar or that topic I stick to:

thanks for sharing

[charleshoskinson]

Ethereum has some powerful friends. That's one of the things that bothers me about them. Remember, they have been "self-funded" for some months now.

What you talking bout donkeypongiss?

[donkeypong]

They have already collected 1217 BTC ($754,000)  !!!

Ethereum has some powerful friends. That's one of the things that bothers me about them. Remember, they have been "self-funded" for some months now.

[liondani]

They have already collected 1217 BTC ($754,000)  !!!

[cass]

interesting - thx for sharing

[liondani]

Great plan!
Wait until BitSharesX get's liquid and the begin the ether sale... 

[donkeypong]

It appears to be back on. Still not sure where the value comes from, but it will be an interesting project.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/launching-the-ether-sale