Author Topic: BitAsset Market Manipulation Security  (Read 9060 times)

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Offline liondani

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merockstar has it right.

To be more specific...
I do not know of any laws that a delegate could be accused of violating.
...that is crazy. What about AML / SAPs (terrorist financing/tax-evasion)/ KYC, before we even touch the entire world of SEC / Treasury / FED regulations?

Put simply: If US senators start complaining, what then? Of course the NSA will know the physical location of the delegates' computers.

Dpos certainly has a powerful regenerative force, in that delegates 101 through 200 can just just step up and keep the system moving, but (I argue) the entire value-proposition of Bitcoin was that there would be nothing for an attacker (government / moral or otherwise) to shut off. It was LibertyReserve without a target. 100 people is smaller than most organizations...if a few executives from a-Canadian-bank-that-allowed-individuals-to-withdraw-money-from-InTrade can be arrested while vacationing in the USA and face 5 years in prison, so can essentially anyone.

Ok.. you can be accused of anything.   But so far we have seen it ruled that Bitcoin is not a security so neither is BTSX.   Bitcoin is not a legal entity and neither is BTSX.  Delegates are merely timestamp servers.  They have no executive authority.   

101 people may be small, but these are 101 people spread all over the world with different jurisdictions. 

All of that said, if it becomes a legal issue then we can adapt.  Let people do it from countries where it is OK.  Run it from behind TOR.  Increase delegate compensation to cover risk.

So we have already admit that is better that we have more individuals (separated in different country's) that take the delegate role to reduce risk ... As it is right now it is max 101 individuals, and if we want to be honest it will be only a percentage of the 101 active delegates because some individuals will manage to control more than 1 delegate at a time... So I bring back again the idea to: keep max 101 ACTIVE delegates (not more) but rotate them with the top X stand-by delegates (x variable,depended on market cap,x higher when market cap is higher). You can even use less delegates when transactions volume get higher than y% of average volume (for the last hours)  to ensure that very high volume transactions get signed from high end servers that are more trustworthy...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:43:03 pm by liondani »

Offline bytemaster

merockstar has it right.

To be more specific...
I do not know of any laws that a delegate could be accused of violating.
...that is crazy. What about AML / SAPs (terrorist financing/tax-evasion)/ KYC, before we even touch the entire world of SEC / Treasury / FED regulations?

Put simply: If US senators start complaining, what then? Of course the NSA will know the physical location of the delegates' computers.

Dpos certainly has a powerful regenerative force, in that delegates 101 through 200 can just just step up and keep the system moving, but (I argue) the entire value-proposition of Bitcoin was that there would be nothing for an attacker (government / moral or otherwise) to shut off. It was LibertyReserve without a target. 100 people is smaller than most organizations...if a few executives from a-Canadian-bank-that-allowed-individuals-to-withdraw-money-from-InTrade can be arrested while vacationing in the USA and face 5 years in prison, so can essentially anyone.

Ok.. you can be accused of anything.   But so far we have seen it ruled that Bitcoin is not a security so neither is BTSX.   Bitcoin is not a legal entity and neither is BTSX.  Delegates are merely timestamp servers.  They have no executive authority.   

101 people may be small, but these are 101 people spread all over the world with different jurisdictions. 

All of that said, if it becomes a legal issue then we can adapt.  Let people do it from countries where it is OK.  Run it from behind TOR.  Increase delegate compensation to cover risk.
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Offline GaltReport

After reading about Liberty Reserve, I don't see much similarity here. Bitshares isn't acting as a depository or a "real" currency exchange. People are going to have to buy BTSX from elsewhere and then use it to trade.

Bank-Coinbase-BTer-BitsharesX
Similarly,
Bank-paypal-Ebay. If someone is laundering money through paypal and then buying things on Ebay, the ebay sellers aren't charged with AML crimes. Neither does Ebay.

I am no lawyer though. It be nice to know for sure.
+5%

Offline luckybit

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After reading about Liberty Reserve, I don't see much similarity here. Bitshares isn't acting as a depository or a "real" currency exchange. People are going to have to buy BTSX from elsewhere and then use it to trade.

Bank-Coinbase-BTer-BitsharesX
Similarly,
Bank-paypal-Ebay. If someone is laundering money through paypal and then buying things on Ebay, the ebay sellers aren't charged with AML crimes. Neither does Ebay.

I am no lawyer though. It be nice to know for sure.

 +5% +5%

Now can someone tell this to Benjamin Lawsky? It is a good point and BItshares is no different from Bitcoin in a lot of ways. Replace miners with delegates and because delegates are mostly known trusted entities there is a level of honesty about it.

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merockstar

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can we set a total of bitusd,then increase or reduce the total of bitusd according to the market demand regularly. 8)

people shorting and closing short positions accomplish that naturally.

Offline 当年很厉害

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can we set a total of bitusd,then increase or reduce the total of bitusd according to the market demand regularly. 8)
BTS粉里有SB!

Ggozzo

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After reading about Liberty Reserve, I don't see much similarity here. Bitshares isn't acting as a depository or a "real" currency exchange. People are going to have to buy BTSX from elsewhere and then use it to trade.

Bank-Coinbase-BTer-BitsharesX
Similarly,
Bank-paypal-Ebay. If someone is laundering money through paypal and then buying things on Ebay, the ebay sellers aren't charged with AML crimes. Neither does Ebay.

I am no lawyer though. It be nice to know for sure.

Offline AsymmetricInformation

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merockstar has it right.

To be more specific...
I do not know of any laws that a delegate could be accused of violating.
...that is crazy. What about AML / SAPs (terrorist financing/tax-evasion)/ KYC, before we even touch the entire world of SEC / Treasury / FED regulations?

Put simply: If US senators start complaining, what then? Of course the NSA will know the physical location of the delegates' computers.

Dpos certainly has a powerful regenerative force, in that delegates 101 through 200 can just just step up and keep the system moving, but (I argue) the entire value-proposition of Bitcoin was that there would be nothing for an attacker (government / moral or otherwise) to shut off. It was LibertyReserve without a target. 100 people is smaller than most organizations...if a few executives from a-Canadian-bank-that-allowed-individuals-to-withdraw-money-from-InTrade can be arrested while vacationing in the USA and face 5 years in prison, so can essentially anyone.

Offline luckybit

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Let's be honest here and admit there is some risk in being a delegate (which is why delegates collect fees). I will also say in my opinion the risk of being a delegate is slightly greater than being a miner.

But at a 16 million dollar market cap it's not really significantly greater. It's when the market cap gets into the billions that it will be significantly greater because the amount of income delegates could get might make it very competitive.

The risk comes from the fact that the community has to trust the delegates but because delegates are easily replaced if they become corrupted it's a risk which can be minimized. I'm not yet a delegate myself so I do recognize the risk (and responsibility).

Perhaps it's also because of the recent "BitLicense" and the tone of it that has some people looking over their shoulders.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:55:05 am by luckybit »
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merockstar

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Sounds like being a delegate is a lot of (crucial) work, and you might be arrested (LibertyReserve had way more than 100 employees). Maybe all of the delegates can be from Switzerland, or something.

This is going to be pretty complicated to analyse now...I suspect that with 12 delegates comes instant victory. Getting 12 might even be easy, if 88 are going to be left in the dust, you wouldn't want to be one of those 88. 1 for free if you are a delegate yourself... I don't know when I'll have time to try and figure this out.

Wait a second. What do you mean we could be arrested? I've put my name on this delegate and was about to start pushing out advertisements as soon as this becomes profitable. At ~6 cents per hour right now, this may not be worth it.  I need to know what liabilities are involved before we get too deep. Can you describe what you mean and how we "could" be arrested?

you're part of a fair, viable alternative to the legacy banking system.

any government could potentially bullshit something up.

Offline GaltReport

Sounds like being a delegate is a lot of (crucial) work, and you might be arrested (LibertyReserve had way more than 100 employees). Maybe all of the delegates can be from Switzerland, or something.

This is going to be pretty complicated to analyse now...I suspect that with 12 delegates comes instant victory. Getting 12 might even be easy, if 88 are going to be left in the dust, you wouldn't want to be one of those 88. 1 for free if you are a delegate yourself... I don't know when I'll have time to try and figure this out.

Wait a second. What do you mean we could be arrested? I've put my name on this delegate and was about to start pushing out advertisements as soon as this becomes profitable. At ~6 cents per hour right now, this may not be worth it.  I need to know what liabilities are involved before we get too deep. Can you describe what you mean and how we "could" be arrested?

Too late.  Just consider yourself drafted private!! 

(8 hours of hot lights, no bathroom breaks or water and I'll be blaming Bytemaster, Stan and the Chinese for everything!!)

Just kidding.  I haven't a clue.  I would guess DacsUnlimited is taking the lead on this.

Offline bytemaster

Sounds like being a delegate is a lot of (crucial) work, and you might be arrested (LibertyReserve had way more than 100 employees). Maybe all of the delegates can be from Switzerland, or something.

This is going to be pretty complicated to analyse now...I suspect that with 12 delegates comes instant victory. Getting 12 might even be easy, if 88 are going to be left in the dust, you wouldn't want to be one of those 88. 1 for free if you are a delegate yourself... I don't know when I'll have time to try and figure this out.

Wait a second. What do you mean we could be arrested? I've put my name on this delegate and was about to start pushing out advertisements as soon as this becomes profitable. At ~6 cents per hour right now, this may not be worth it.  I need to know what liabilities are involved before we get too deep. Can you describe what you mean and how we "could" be arrested?

Delegates do not exercise arbitrary authority and if publishing a data feed without any contractual obligations is a crime then the delegate can abstain from publishing a feed.   I do not know of any laws that a delegate could be accused of violating.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bitmeat

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That said - I have an idea. And this needs to evolve into something more solid.

What if transactions are posted in encrypted format. Something along the lines of TITAN for the orderbook.

Let's say we have the following time line

At Block T, A has a confirmed order to buy listed in the order book. B wants to sell at the confirmed price A has listed in the order book.

B submits an encrypted pending order, which gets confirmed in Block T+1

B then submits the code to decrypt the pending order at Block T+2, which confirms and executes it, unless A managed to confirm order cancellation in Block T + 1.

Downside is that it now takes 2 confirmations instead of 1 for transaction to occur.

Also make orders extremely cheap, however extremely expensive to cancel. (i.e. they should be allowed, but this will reduce the bloat in the chain, as well as drive away those buying/selling non-stop)

UPDATE: mixed up A & B. Should be good now.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 12:16:21 am by happypatty »

Ggozzo

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Sounds like being a delegate is a lot of (crucial) work, and you might be arrested (LibertyReserve had way more than 100 employees). Maybe all of the delegates can be from Switzerland, or something.

This is going to be pretty complicated to analyse now...I suspect that with 12 delegates comes instant victory. Getting 12 might even be easy, if 88 are going to be left in the dust, you wouldn't want to be one of those 88. 1 for free if you are a delegate yourself... I don't know when I'll have time to try and figure this out.

Wait a second. What do you mean we could be arrested? I've put my name on this delegate and was about to start pushing out advertisements as soon as this becomes profitable. At ~6 cents per hour right now, this may not be worth it.  I need to know what liabilities are involved before we get too deep. Can you describe what you mean and how we "could" be arrested?

Offline bitmeat

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Sounds like being a delegate is a lot of (crucial) work, and you might be arrested (LibertyReserve had way more than 100 employees). Maybe all of the delegates can be from Switzerland, or something.

This is going to be pretty complicated to analyse now...I suspect that with 12 delegates comes instant victory. Getting 12 might even be easy, if 88 are going to be left in the dust, you wouldn't want to be one of those 88. 1 for free if you are a delegate yourself... I don't know when I'll have time to try and figure this out.
AI, The guys you are talking about have done some really shady things though. I remember seeing a discussion with a strong attorney in the space from New York, who said that as long as you are not dealing with gateways, you should generally be OK. i.e. FIAT <-> BTC <-- serious regulation. BTC <-> other crypto, it's all virtual, no harm done.

In other words if someone does something shady, they will eventually need to cash out of crypto, and that's when they can be examined. Delegates are serving the same role as miners, are they not? It's like saying that if someone moved a lot of BTC used for bad things we should arrest all the miners who mined the blocks containing those transactions.

I'm not a lawyer, so go consult one, just repeating something I've seen in a Bitcoin conference video somewhere. (honestly don't remember the source)