Author Topic: The need for change  (Read 7970 times)

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Offline tonyk

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Thanks! Finally, something that I can buy in.
 
Creating something not quite efficient and/or choosing solution that is apparently not optimal, without solid reasoning for doing so did not quite cut it.

Hope it works!
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

The best way to look at the dilution is the moral equivalent of the developers running an AGS style campaign for several years to fund development and awarding the shares to those who funded development. 

In this case rather than giving BTC or PTS you are giving time/skills and the community decides who gets to spend the funds rather than a central party.   

You can attempt to make it more complicated by bringing in "inflation" and "unpredictable supply" and all those other things, but this is really just another form of fundraiser that is safer from a regulatory perspective than everything that has gone before.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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It's shareholders of a specific DAC deciding how best to dilute their own equity unlike holders of currency having the dilution decided for them by central bankers.  & it decreases sharply as the DAC should become more self-sufficient so for me it's fine.

You are also thinking BitShares thinks  'inflation stimulates growth' like keynesians do, but they don't. I think BitShares is only using the model to direct the activities of the DAC in a decentralised way, mainly until revenue is enough to covers the DAC's requirements.

(The large sharedrops in DNS affect my investment decisions more.)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 12:35:00 am by Empirical1 »

Offline Empirical1

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Yes, but it's still predictable vs. unpredictable and I prefer predictable.

I share some of your concerns about high levels of inflation though.

Edit: Thanks for the numbers, I haven't looked at the DNS case yet.

Offline tonyk

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We are talking about slightly bigger inflation % here... as in 105%, 28% and 12% for the first 3 years.[for the DNS case]
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:54:51 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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What I do not like is that this suggestion is full with  twisted-logic as:
I hate that, I don't want to worry about shareholders diluting me by some amount in future I can't control.

But you are OK with being diluted all the time, as above not being able to control it?

I own gold, I know the supply inflates by a small fairly predictable % each year but  I'm 'OK with being diluted all the time' :P

But I try to keep as little in fiat money as possible because I have to worry about being diluted by some future amount I can't control.

There is no twisted logic there for me.

Offline tonyk

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You found something useful in shareholders voting to create new shares for an opportunity.
-This as an argument that I like inflation.
Yes, but that's because there is not inflation if the value added is >= this pseudo dilution.


What I do not like is that this suggestion is full with  twisted-logic as:
I hate that, I don't want to worry about shareholders diluting me by some amount in future I can't control.

But you are OK with being diluted all the time, as above not being able to control it?



Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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I hate inflation more than you, that's why I prefer a pre-determined equity/inflation model.

Possible off topic, but how you hate inflation more than me if:
I can not find anything useful in it, and you are OK with pre-determined inflation model?

Not to go into 'how pre-determined it is' if  one can voted in and out of it.

You found something useful in shareholders voting to create new shares for an opportunity.

How DAC B resolves the issue:- by Voting, increases the share supply with exactly what is needed, effectively taking as much as needed inflation, (possible all at once and not by a  long slow process, in the case of needing the whole amount at once).

I hate that, I don't want to worry about shareholders diluting me by some amount in future I can't control.
If they have some small inflation I can already see it will be treated like the revenue in BTSX where they vote to burn it most of the time, unless there is a good opportunity that is worthy of dilution that revenue doesn't cover. As it is pre-determined you can make some calculations about the future.

Like we know Bitcoin should have max 21 million units and a set rate of inflation. If I had to worry about people changing the model or it issuing new coins above the model they started with, I wouldn't want to own it.


Of course the other model is no inflation, give the developers the funds for 18 months development and hope the revenue is enough after that to meet the needs of the DAC and that the developers won't be targeted in those 18 months. It's not terrible but there are risks. Is that your preferred kind of model?

Offline tonyk

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I hate inflation more than you, that's why I prefer a pre-determined equity/inflation model.

Possible off topic, but how you hate inflation more than me if:
I can not find anything useful in it, and you are OK with pre-determined inflation model?

Not to go into 'how pre-determined it is' if  one can voted in and out of it.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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However some businesses take a few years to be positive so it could be useful in that period. Also occasionally a business might have to borrow for expansion or to respond to a competitor so having some form of equity release/inflation available, that is mostly being 100% burnt, (ergo no inflation) available to be directed to funding the business when needed could be good.


Removing ‘The central point of failure’  and seeing if this decentralization will actually work, is the first thing I see as a reason for trying this new scheme. (even though I am not optimistic that we will find anything better than  ‘Better decentralized solutions, to problems that are best solved by centralization’)

However, in the above quote,  I see one of the things that concerns me the most. The believe that in this new shares we have something actually more to sell than without them. Diluting the mixture and putting in more bottles is actually not ‘some form of equity’.
 In other words – you have the same income coming to the delegates as in the undiluted fees model. Hoping that somehow you will sell it for more than the undiluted fee (salt) contained in it, just not gonna happen. And you should not expect this as a result of your new model.

I don't believe these shares are something 'more' than without them. I realise it is not new value.

But having the equity accessible is a potential advantage over a DAC that does not have any of its equity available. 

DAC A has 10% inflation directed via DPOS,  DAC B does not have inflation. Both are worth $10 million and both are generating $1 000 000 revenue and $200 000 profit for shareholders per year.

Currently shareholders in DAC A burn all the inflation so they appear very similar. 

An opportunity comes up to buy a competitor for $1 000 000 or maybe  Bytemaster says I'm willing to give my time to that DAC for two years for $500 000 worth of equity.

How does DAC B get access to the equity to take advantage of either opportunity if they they think it's valuable? 

In DAC A shareholders can access some of the underlying equity, by re-directing the inflation from 100% burn (ergo no inflation) to taking advantage of the opportunity for growth that DAC B can't.

How DAC A decides that? – by voting (and waiting for the necessary fees to be collected; huge difference if it is buying a new company, not paying BM for N years).

How DAC B resolves the issue:- by Voting, increases the share supply with exactly what is needed, effectively taking as much as needed inflation, (possible all at once and not by a  long slow process, in the case of needing the whole amount at once).

Which one do you like better?



To say nothing that ‘Toast’ (the developer of DAC A) could  just have been awarded all the extra shares of DAC A to begin with, and he decides what to do with them even more efficiently. But let’s not go in circles here, talking about this scenario.

Yes let's not go in circles, I've already explained the solution you describe for Toast creates a centralised weak spot for a decentralised system.

As for your other examples I prefer DAC A myself. I hate inflation more than you, that's why I prefer a pre-determined equity/inflation model. If shareholders can vote to issue new shares like you are suggesting in DAC B, I think it will be negative for crypto-currency type DAC's but maybe OK for more specialised ones.

The answer I gave why I don't like canonisers idea of 'smart coins' is nearly the same so I will copy that -


" If you want to win the crypto-currency race as well as benefit humanity you will do best to give them a currency with pretty hard coded initial rules and no or low, unchangeable inflation. (Alternatives will result in coin holders damaging themselves through greed and short termism as well as the financially uneducated succumbing to supporting strategies promoted by a small smarter minority usually using instant gratification as the hook.)

This is why gold has maintained a stable value for thousands of years - because we can't mess with the initial rules (regarding it's inflation and production) too much.

Fiat money on the other hand I would say is the example of 'smart money'  -  coins where there is no hard-coded limit/backing and no guarantee/confidence they will maintain 'X' limit in the future with regard to inflation/production.  No pure fiat currency has lasted more than 50 years & in their collapse 'smart coins' have left the bottom 90% of their users much worse off. I suspect applied to crypto we will see the same events unfold, just on an accelerated time-scale.

I've seen BitShares propose a 10/10/80 model. Where 20% is awarded to AGS & PTS and the remaining 80% is distributed via delegates using a ten year equity release plan. I'm all for that (well I'd prefer 20/20/60). Provided whatever the equity release plan is, is clearly defined and pretty hard-coded somehow into the system. It should let us be extremely flexible to responding to the needs of the DAC.

So unlike you I would like the " inflation rate, or the amount of currency that is put into production at any point in time " to be hard coded. They can always fork if they don't like it, but a 'future inflation/production un-defined/uncertain blockchain' would immediately have less value I believe anyway.


Offline tonyk

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However some businesses take a few years to be positive so it could be useful in that period. Also occasionally a business might have to borrow for expansion or to respond to a competitor so having some form of equity release/inflation available, that is mostly being 100% burnt, (ergo no inflation) available to be directed to funding the business when needed could be good.


Removing ‘The central point of failure’  and seeing if this decentralization will actually work, is the first thing I see as a reason for trying this new scheme. (even though I am not optimistic that we will find anything better than  ‘Better decentralized solutions, to problems that are best solved by centralization’)

However, in the above quote,  I see one of the things that concerns me the most. The believe that in this new shares we have something actually more to sell than without them. Diluting the mixture and putting in more bottles is actually not ‘some form of equity’.
 In other words – you have the same income coming to the delegates as in the undiluted fees model. Hoping that somehow you will sell it for more than the undiluted fee (salt) contained in it, just not gonna happen. And you should not expect this as a result of your new model.

I don't believe these shares are something 'more' than without them. I realise it is not new value.

But having the equity accessible is a potential advantage over a DAC that does not have any of its equity available. 

DAC A has 10% inflation directed via DPOS,  DAC B does not have inflation. Both are worth $10 million and both are generating $1 000 000 revenue and $200 000 profit for shareholders per year.

Currently shareholders in DAC A burn all the inflation so they appear very similar. 

An opportunity comes up to buy a competitor for $1 000 000 or maybe  Bytemaster says I'm willing to give my time to that DAC for two years for $500 000 worth of equity.

How does DAC B get access to the equity to take advantage of either opportunity if they they think it's valuable? 

In DAC A shareholders can access some of the underlying equity, by re-directing the inflation from 100% burn (ergo no inflation) to taking advantage of the opportunity for growth that DAC B can't.

How DAC A decides that? – by voting (and waiting for the necessary fees to be collected; huge difference if it is buying a new company, not paying BM for N years).

How DAC B resolves the issue:- by Voting, increases the share supply with exactly what is needed, effectively taking as much as needed inflation, (possible all at once and not by a  long slow process, in the case of needing the whole amount at once).

Which one do you like better?



To say nothing that ‘Toast’ (the developer of DAC A) could  just have been awarded all the extra shares of DAC A to begin with, and he decides what to do with them even more efficiently. But let’s not go in circles here, talking about this scenario.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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However some businesses take a few years to be positive so it could be useful in that period. Also occasionally a business might have to borrow for expansion or to respond to a competitor so having some form of equity release/inflation available, that is mostly being 100% burnt, (ergo no inflation) available to be directed to funding the business when needed could be good.


Removing ‘The central point of failure’  and seeing if this decentralization will actually work, is the first thing I see as a reason for trying this new scheme. (even though I am not optimistic that we will find anything better than  ‘Better decentralized solutions, to problems that are best solved by centralization’)

However, in the above quote,  I see one of the things that concerns me the most. The believe that in this new shares we have something actually more to sell than without them. Diluting the mixture and putting in more bottles is actually not ‘some form of equity’.
 In other words – you have the same income coming to the delegates as in the undiluted fees model. Hoping that somehow you will sell it for more than the undiluted fee (salt) contained in it, just not gonna happen. And you should not expect this as a result of your new model.


I don't believe these shares are something 'more' than without them. I realise it is not new value.

But having the equity accessible is a potential advantage over a DAC that does not have any of its equity available. 

DAC A has 10% inflation directed via DPOS,  DAC B does not have inflation. Both are worth $10 million and both are generating $1 000 000 revenue and $200 000 profit for shareholders per year.

Currently shareholders in DAC A burn all the inflation so they appear very similar. 

An opportunity comes up to buy a competitor for $1 000 000 or maybe  Bytemaster says I'm willing to give my time to that DAC for two years for $500 000 worth of equity.

How does DAC B get access to the equity to take advantage of either opportunity if they they think it's valuable? 

In DAC A shareholders can access some of the underlying equity, by re-directing the inflation from 100% burn (ergo no inflation) to taking advantage of the opportunity for growth that DAC B can't.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 01:52:33 am by Empirical1 »

Offline tonyk

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However some businesses take a few years to be positive so it could be useful in that period. Also occasionally a business might have to borrow for expansion or to respond to a competitor so having some form of equity release/inflation available, that is mostly being 100% burnt, (ergo no inflation) available to be directed to funding the business when needed could be good.


Removing ‘The central point of failure’  and seeing if this decentralization will actually work, is the first thing I see as a reason for trying this new scheme. (even though I am not optimistic that we will find anything better than  ‘Better decentralized solutions, to problems that are best solved by centralization’)

However, in the above quote,  I see one of the things that concerns me the most. The believe that in this new shares we have something actually more to sell than without them. Diluting the mixture and putting in more bottles is actually not ‘some form of equity’.
 In other words – you have the same income coming to the delegates as in the undiluted fees model. Hoping that somehow you will sell it for more than the undiluted fee (salt) contained in it, just not gonna happen. And you should not expect this as a result of your new model.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline santaclause102

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it works if Delegates effectively work to increase the value of the DAC

at 100 million cap and a mere 10% inflation, we would have 101 full-time employees earning 100 000 $ a year working to effectively increase the value of the DAC
but you know what I mean. If DNS is with inflation and X is not and both take of we don't know more than before because they might have taken of each for different reasons. You can't even say that inflation doesnt matter (if you just look at the empirical evidence).
Can you pls explain what do you mean in your double negative.
To know that something has no influence is also a result. With the construction above where two parameters with the two test objects (DNS and X) are not the same, it is impossible to know whether the inflation for expansion construction is beneficial.
But it is a very theoretical and doesn't help. Just a side node... 

Quote
but I believe the details of the experimental projects will give us fine details of the incentive structures that will allow us to draw innumerable conclusions from their differences
+5
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 07:42:25 pm by delulo »

Offline CLains

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Delulo simply brings up the technical point that we are not doing a double blind controlled experiment here, and that we are definitely not doing interventionist causal analysis to distinguish correlation from causation, so we can't infer from the fact that say DNS succeeds, that it was element X that was the cause (e.g. inflation). This is all well and true, but I believe the details of the experimental projects will give us fine details of the incentive structures that will allow us to draw innumerable conclusions from their differences. /VOICE

Offline Empirical1

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economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.
It is not predetermined that inflation to expand makes sense.
The question is: Can those that get the newly issued shares/coins/tokens (they are paid this way) increase the value of the network/coin/DAC/company more than shareholders/coinholders are diluted?  If the answer is yes, what reason is there not to do it.

Yes in theory, the way a business awards dividends if there aren't huge re-investment opportunities so too should the presence of inflation be moot, because shareholders should just choose to have it burned/paid back to themselves unless they can agree there is an opportunity to generate a greater return by doing something else with it.


Offline CLains

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There will be inefficiencies of course, but what this all means is that all the pressure is on voting. We need 1) that voting is efficient such that both delegate number and delegate max-income will be irrelevant as they will cooperate, review each other, and compete according to voter-interests, and 2) that voting-interests falls in line with the DAC's interests. If we have both of these elements going for us, there is no stopping BitShares.

Offline tonyk

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it works if Delegates effectively work to increase the value of the DAC

at 100 million cap and a mere 10% inflation, we would have 101 full-time employees earning 100 000 $ a year working to effectively increase the value of the DAC
but you know what I mean. If DNS is with inflation and X is not and both take of we don't know more than before because they might have taken of each for different reasons. You can't even say that inflation doesnt matter (if you just look at the empirical evidence).
Can you pls explain what do you mean in your double negative.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 07:26:45 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline santaclause102

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Quote
economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.
It is not predetermined that inflation to expand makes sense.
The question is: Can those that get the newly issued shares/coins/tokens (they are paid this way) increase the value of the network/coin/DAC/company more than shareholders/coinholders are diluted?  If the answer is yes, what reason is there not to do it.

Offline Empirical1

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All the above worries me because it actually achieves nothing as a real economic benefit (compared to inflation-less) system, other than trying to incorporate much or less, some economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.

I agree with your bolded statement. Unless the guys in this thread are talking about some other inflation business model then I think you/I have misunderstood the equity release model.

For example Alice & Bob start a business. They raise funds to start the business from investors and award people shares based on how much they contribute. They use those funds to develop and grow the business. If you want to shut down the business all you have to do is get to Alice & Bob or the funds. Applying it to a DAC, you've created a decentralised system with a centralised weak spot.

If you take the same model but have that equity released via delegates, the large active shareholders would probably still release most of it to Alice & Bob & not think much else about it,  but if they were targeted you would just re-direct the equity release elsewhere.

Edit: Maybe I should read your link first...  :P

Too much added inefficiency to achieve this goal, for my liking. I will think it over,... more.

Ok I read some of the original thread. Yeah it's interesting. I think re-directing the inflation % of Bitcoin through a DPOS system should work fine. But as you say in that thread usually all the money you need to run a business and then some should come through revenue.

However some businesses take a few years to be positive so it could be useful in that period. Also occasionally a business might have to borrow for expansion or to respond to a competitor so having some form of equity release/inflation available, that is mostly being 100% burnt, (ergo no inflation) available to be directed to funding the business when needed could be good.

Another problem we'll find is that shareholders of coca cola can be concerned with investment & electing a board of directors but people who drink coca cola couldn't really give a sh... With DAC's users/customers end up being shareholders at the moment, on the one hand it's a good thing as it creates demand for the stock in addition to revenue but as you say there will be a lot of people who own stock that won't be involved in this process. Which creates new problems.  Especially with a DAC that's specifically designed to be used a global crypto-currency. I will think about it more myself.

Offline tonyk

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All the above worries me because it actually achieves nothing as a real economic benefit (compared to inflation-less) system, other than trying to incorporate much or less, some economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.

I agree with your bolded statement. Unless the guys in this thread are talking about some other inflation business model then I think you/I have misunderstood the equity release model.

For example Alice & Bob start a business. They raise funds to start the business from investors and award people shares based on how much they contribute. They use those funds to develop and grow the business. If you want to shut down the business all you have to do is get to Alice & Bob or the funds. Applying it to a DAC, you've created a decentralised system with a centralised weak spot.

If you take the same model but have that equity released via delegates, the large active shareholders would probably still release most of it to Alice & Bob & not think much else about it,  but if they were targeted you would just re-direct the equity release elsewhere.

Edit: Maybe I should read your link first...  :P

Too much added inefficiency to achieve this goal, for my liking. I will think it over,... more.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline tonyk

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What it achieves is that we can hire people instead of just coaxing them to buy in so that they'll want to do work to improve the system.

The same result would be achieved without inflation if you could convince all shareholders to pool some of their funds to be able to hire critical infrastructure.

The clearer, easier and more efficient model is:

To simply keep this stake for  the developer.


When centralization is needed the number is probably closer to 1, than to # of delegates.

It easer and cheaper for every stakeholder to follow; No spending by 2 delegates for the same issue;... the list goes on but you know what I mean.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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All the above worries me because it actually achieves nothing as a real economic benefit (compared to inflation-less) system, other than trying to incorporate much or less, some economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.

I agree with your bolded statement. Unless the guys in this thread are talking about some other inflation business model then I think you/I have misunderstood the equity release model.

For example Alice & Bob start a business. They raise funds to start the business from investors and award people shares based on how much they contribute. They use those funds to develop and grow the business. If you want to shut down the business all you have to do is get to Alice & Bob or the funds. Applying it to a DAC, you've created a decentralised system with a centralised weak spot.

If you take the same model but have that equity released via delegates, the large active shareholders would probably still release most of it to Alice & Bob & not think much else about it,  but if they were targeted you would just re-direct the equity release elsewhere.

Edit: Maybe I should read your link first...  :P

« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:52:47 pm by Empirical1 »

Offline toast

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Quote
All the above worries me because it actually achieves nothing as a real economic benefit (compared to inflation-less) system, other than trying to incorporate much or less, some economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.

What it achieves is that we can hire people instead of just coaxing them to buy in so that they'll want to do work to improve the system.

The same result would be achieved without inflation if you could convince all shareholders to pool some of their funds to be able to hire critical infrastructure.

Calling it a tax isn't too far off, it is essentially me saying "no, trust me, we really need to pay for shit, otherwise your stake will be worthless".
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline tonyk

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No need to. Inflation can be used to pay for radical market expansion (marketing) and further development.
There was a good discussion here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4713.0;all

Read the threads. Here are my thoughts:

The investor are always paying for the amount of salt they are buying. Even more precisely they are always paying for the amount of salt they expect to have when the time to sell the salt comes.


All is well and good. Maybe that is the best or only way to do things in a DAC.(highly doubtful)
First observation: The capital is highly unappreciated/de-incentivized in the system. Such people are considered more or less ‘freeloaders’, if they do not put extra work, in addition to providing money.

Let’s look at the things from the investor’s perspective. She basically has 2 choices:
-Risk her money early, for which she is usually rewarded with corresponding bigger returns (for the risks taken). Instead of that, she is burdened with at least 2.5 years of constant monitoring what the employees are doing – how much salt and how much water they add to the system.(fixing the max amount of water to be added, on a pre-determined schedule is another separate issue or (solution), but let’s not go there  now)
- Or not-invest at that early stages (sell the shares that she got as dividend/distribution) at the beginning. Measuring the salt at discrete moments is always cheaper than constantly monitoring the system and trying to improve it to your likings. After 2.5 years when the guaranteed furious dilution of the shares of the DAC is sufficiently subsided, a new measurement can be taken and decision made on the appropriate action – buying back or staying put.

Making the usual assumption that all markets behave logically – when she tries to sell those shares she will find buyers offering not much above the max delusion expected/predetermined in the system. That is because they now are getting in the same boat our investors is trying to get out of.

Faced with those facts our investor have two new choice – sell at those prices (the better choice when better returns can be found in other investments), or holding for those 2.5 years without caring what the employees do. The risk of 2.5 years of adding nothing but water in the system is taken into account. Voting for ‘who is the faucet adding the water’ is highly de-incentivized, for all stockholders for which the constant monitoring the process is more expensive than the several ounces of salt they may or may not end up adding if they are more involved.[On a side note: I do not know if this is a desired or undesired consequence of the system design but this results also in encouraging/promoting big stake holders probably more than ‘active’ shareholders]

Aside for the voting effect mentioned above, it seems some believe do exists that the gradual delusion will lead to the prices of the newly issued shares somehow reflecting the current state of dilution as of this point, not the total max dilution build in the system. The previously described process explains why it is likely the prices to be much closer to the max dilution expected.



All the above worries me because it actually achieves nothing as a real economic benefit (compared to inflation-less) system, other than trying to incorporate much or less, some economic fallacies, such as: by increasing the supply of ‘money’ one can actually stimulate growth, and growing economic systems depend on constant increase in such supply.


Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline santaclause102

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it works if Delegates effectively work to increase the value of the DAC

at 100 million cap and a mere 10% inflation, we would have 101 full-time employees earning 100 000 $ a year working to effectively increase the value of the DAC
but you know what I mean. If DNS is with inflation and X is not and both take of we don't know more than before because they might have taken of each for different reasons. You can't even say that inflation doesnt matter (if you just look at the empirical evidence).

Offline Empirical1

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For example if there was equity release, I would vote to hire an additional enthusiastic marketing person who's passionate about this field, knows BitShares & competitor offerings inside out, interacts with the community daily, actively communicates & markets BitShares on other forums and builds effective, results visible, marketing/press/promotion relationships within this field too.

Unfortunately in the early stages of the business, fees barely cover a delegates running costs so the impact on change we as shareholders have is limited atm.

Offline Empirical1

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The problem with traditional funding models is that until the delegates are generating significant revenue it creates a centralised weak spot for a DAC & gives shareholders no control over business development.

IF the equity release rate is pre-determined and directed via shareholders to only the most trusted delegates, the results could be amazing.

It wouldn't be inflation in the traditional sense as shareholders can vote to have all those fees burned and therefore the inflation negated unless they agree those funds could generate higher returns
by being putting into a specific area of business development.

Of course we'll have to see how it plays out.. I haven't really looked at the breakdown for the 2 recently announced DAC's yet.

Offline luckybit

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I don't like inflation. I think inflation breeds corruption and it has to come from somewhere. It's a tax.

So let's call it what it is, it's tax and spend.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline CLains

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it works if Delegates effectively work to increase the value of the DAC

at 100 million cap and a mere 10% inflation, we would have 101 full-time employees earning 100 000 $ a year working to effectively increase the value of the DAC

Offline santaclause102

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what do you mean by "work"?

Offline CLains

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If inflation for Delegates works anything like what I imagine the effect will not be as subtle as all that..

Offline santaclause102

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We should approach this experimentally.

BitShares X is trying the deflate-for-dividends model while BitShares DNS is trying the inflate-for-delegates model.

Both are likely better than burn-for-distribution/security model, but who knows?

The inflate-for-delegates is certainly the most interesting category, and if it works efficiently for the system, will be the most revolutionary.
ceteris paribus not fulfilled for your test ;)

Offline CLains

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We should approach this experimentally.

BitShares X is trying the deflate-for-dividends model while BitShares DNS is trying the inflate-for-delegates model. Both are likely better than burn-for-distribution/security model, but who knows?

The inflate-for-delegates is certainly the most interesting model right now, and if it works efficiently for the system, will be the most revolutionary.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 03:31:45 pm by CLains »

Offline santaclause102

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No need to. Inflation can be used to pay for radical market expansion (marketing) and further development.
There was a good discussion here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4713.0;all

Offline Empirical1

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How have they abandoned it?

BitShares X has no inflation and has already burnt a few hundred thousand BTSX which acts as dividends for shareholders.

(Granted it's negligible, and personally I hope we'll get some quality re-investment options going via delegates vs. burning, but the business has just started.)

Offline tonyk

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The History of BitShares
Part Three


Bytemaster recognized that Bitcoin could be viewed as an unprofitable company and its coins as stock in that company.  Stock value was generally rising because demand for its services (efficient private money transmission) exceeded supply.   But, meanwhile it was bleeding red ink.  100% of its transaction fees were going to pay its employees (the miners).  But that still wasn’t enough.  It had to print more money (up to 12% annual inflation) also to pay its employees.  So Bitcoin is a company with annual losses near 12%.  (And the employees were only getting to keep a few percent of the money being wasted on them.)

He decided that eliminating those employees was a key objective that would inevitably lead to a whole new generation of profitable crypto-businesses.  Assets based on destructive mining would go the way of the dinosaur, unable to compete with profitable business models of second generation assets that could afford to pay dividends and interest to their holders.  It was just a matter of time.



What is the reason for abandoning this core, imo, idea?



Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.