I am putting up a $10,000 bounty to break DPOS.... Join me.

[svk]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   Let me explain.

Will bitcoin ever hardfork to DPOS.   Well the answer is, if they are smart.... the truth is, getting consensus on that will be very difficult.  IT may happen. It may not.   But I sure as hell am going to mention the possibility of it happening right up front in every conversation I have with a bitcoiner.  Why?  Because I have been a marketer for 15 years and I know that the majority of people have 2 massive psychological incentives to keep a closed mind about the validity of DPOS.

1. They have been telling their friends for years the bitcoin is the shit and it even if another crypto came along and surpassed it, then most would have to admit they were wrong to a degree.  Not many bitcoiners give themselves the out that "crypto will be king" instead of "bitcoin will be king."

2. Most people in bitcoin are not wealthy.   Bitcoin is their chance to make big money.  They hang on to it with desperation. 

As a result of these two powerful psychological drivers, most people in crypto approach new things outside of bitcoin with a very closed mind.  If we can alleviate these concerns, then they may just have their mind open enough for long enough to listen and get enthusiastic about it.

It is interesting to note that the biggest bitcoin "celebrity" to endorse DPOS is a savant. Vitalik has near immunity from psychological triggers.    And then even though he has all that clout with his team, he still has trouble convincing them DPOS is the shit because of their psychological triggers.

Yourself, Dan and Brian, all reported experiencing that exact resistance when speaking to most people.   I think you guys knew why (Dan said so explicitly), you just didn't know how to fix it.   

The way to fix it is to explain that neither of these things are being threatened by your new idea..... in fact.... these new ideas you are about to introduce to them is very much aligned with their goals of being right(1) and rich(2).

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

Instead the comments will hopefully read, "This could be the coolest thing for bitcoin since Satoshi."  "DPOS could be the killer feature to send Bitcoin to the moon", etc.

If you guys do that then, I think we will get a great result from this video.

As for all of your other points I agree.  If we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and begin the conversation with why Bitcoin is dead, then the superiority of the technology will slowly but surely win out eventually.  But if we are smart...  it will happen a lot faster.

I like the way you think,

[bitmarket]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   Let me explain.

Will bitcoin ever hardfork to DPOS.   Well the answer is, if they are smart.... the truth is, getting consensus on that will be very difficult.  IT may happen. It may not.   But I sure as hell am going to mention the possibility of it happening right up front in every conversation I have with a bitcoiner.  Why?  Because I have been a marketer for 15 years and I know that the majority of people have 2 massive psychological incentives to keep a closed mind about the validity of DPOS.

1. They have been telling their friends for years the bitcoin is the shit and it even if another crypto came along and surpassed it, then most would have to admit they were wrong to a degree.  Not many bitcoiners give themselves the out that "crypto will be king" instead of "bitcoin will be king."

2. Most people in bitcoin are not wealthy.   Bitcoin is their chance to make big money.  They hang on to it with desperation. 

As a result of these two powerful psychological drivers, most people in crypto approach new things outside of bitcoin with a very closed mind.  If we can alleviate these concerns, then they may just have their mind open enough for long enough to listen and get enthusiastic about it.

It is interesting to note that the biggest bitcoin "celebrity" to endorse DPOS is a savant. Vitalik has near immunity from psychological triggers.    And then even though he has all that clout with his team, he still has trouble convincing them DPOS is the shit because of their psychological triggers.

Yourself, Dan and Brian, all reported experiencing that exact resistance when speaking to most people.   I think you guys knew why (Dan said so explicitly), you just didn't know how to fix it.   

The way to fix it is to explain that neither of these things are being threatened by your new idea..... in fact.... these new ideas you are about to introduce to them is very much aligned with their goals of being right(1) and rich(2).

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

Instead the comments will hopefully read, "This could be the coolest thing for bitcoin since Satoshi."  "DPOS could be the killer feature to send Bitcoin to the moon", etc.

If you guys do that then, I think we will get a great result from this video.

As for all of your other points I agree.  If we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and begin the conversation with why Bitcoin is dead, then the superiority of the technology will slowly but surely win out eventually.  But if we are smart...  it will happen a lot faster.

[particlewave]

Imagine a hacker (or team) reading this post, decides to get a jump on breaking DPOS (at least in theory).  Then as soon as the official challenge is announced, "Voila. We've broken it (already)!".  What effect would that have?

[donkeypong]

I thought Bitmarket's idea was awesome, even if it may need more thought. That what the forum is for. Kudos for checking with the community first and glad you got some useful feedback. Overall, I tend to agree with Stan's post that there is a huge potential to bring in outside people. There also are a lot of dying/stagnating cryptocoins out there, and we've already seen a healthy migration of people from other communities coming here. Some are defecting; others are trying this out in addition to their other pursuits, which is a great way to start out until you fully understand and trust what's going on here.

The potential here is much bigger than the people we can peel from Bitcoin. As someone posted elsewhere (and I don't have time to find that quote) BitShares IS the next big thing. Not only in crypto, but in finance, and in peer-to-peer commerce. If we can get some effective on-ramps to people acquiring BTSX and BitUSD, maybe directly through fiat, then (you didn't hear it from me) who needs Bitcoin?

That said, I support Bitmarket's efforts to encourage Bitcoiners to come here. DPOS is not the sexiest feature here, in my opinion, and even though it is an incredible innovation that makes all this possible, I'm not sure that would be my choice of bait. But I love the idea of a PR-grabbing bounty.

How about bounties for:

1) someone to create a the best BitUSD wallet app for mobile?
2) someone to create a the best BitUSD checkout API?
3) whichever merchant has the highest BitUSD sales volume?

Let's jumpstart this ecosystem and stimulate demand for BitUSD. That is the best way forward.

[BldSwtTrs]

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Nice analysis, but I see a different path to success than working toward getting BitCoin to switch to DPOS.

Here’s my reasoning:

1.  Bitcoin will never adopt DPOS.

Lets face it, Bitcoin has become first and foremost a business designed to make money for miners.  Those who run bitcoin are miners, not BTC holders.  Miners have erected a barrier to entry they won’t give up - the need for huge warehouses full of global warming hardware.  This is really no different than how banksters use captive regulators to erect barriers to entry for their competitors.  BTC miners' competitive edge is their Darwinian ability to win a global warming device arms race.  If miners adopt DPOS, they lose that competitive edge to others better suited to compete in the new arena.  Under DPOS, people skilled at attracting voters would have the advantage.  It’s like asking soccer players to deliberately change the rules for who gets the World Cup to be a chess match instead of an athletic tournament.  A different skill set is required and athletes are unlikely to win a chess competition.  So they will keep the rules set to require physical skills so they can continue to win as long as possible.

2. We don’t want Bitcoin to adopt DPOS.

This is just acknowledging our fiduciary duty to the BitShares community.  Unless a BTC upgrade honors PTS/AGS (fat chance) it would not be in the interest of BitShares supporters to have Bitcoin adopt one of our killer competitive edges.  It is in our supporters' best interest to use our edge to suck all of the wealth listed in coinmarketcap into something they own, no? 

3.  There is little delta-value in marketing to the crypto community.

Those who are technically objective will find us all by themselves.  Those who are blindly loyal to a crypto tribe will sink or swim with that tribe (while their wealth migrates to us without them).  This is an acceptable result. 

4.  The network effect of being #1 is a fleeting advantage. 

Just like every point of sale solution accepts every major credit card, they will soon accept every major crypto currency.  No merchant wants to host multiple point of sale systems.  So shopping cart providers and point of sale device providers and mobile device payment app providers will all compete to be THE universal solution.  That means including all the major cryptos and adding value to abstract away their quirks.  BitShares will be in the mix.  End of Bitcoin’s biggest advantage.

5.  Bitcoin doesn’t have any other advantages. 

Bitcoin is #1 because it has been #1.  When that ceases to be an advantage, there is no other reason for it to remain in the top tier at all.   It will go the way of the buggy whip and the phone booth.  And so will its clones.

6.  Bitcoin is just a checking account in a new financial services industry.

Look at the percentage of liquid global wealth that is currently sitting in checking accounts. One percent? Right now 99% of the liquid wealth that wants to escape the corrupt global system is sitting in crypto checking!  But when new services that flesh out the crypto financial system with everything from passbook savings to full service brokerages, how much of that wealth do you think will remain in volatile interest-free checking?  That giant sucking sound you hear is 6 billion dollars worth of current crypto wealth flowing to where it can get a better diversified mix of stability and yield.  Bitcoin will represent only a few percent of the crypto market cap within 18 months.

7.  That giant sucking sound is just a trickle compared to what’s coming.

As big as the flow out of Bitcoin will be, the flow out of the corrupt global financial system will dwarf it.  People are waking up and want out.  Maybe only 1% will wake up until we have a few more train wrecks like Cyprus, Lehman, Iceland, Argentina and MF Global, but such events are currently cueued up like inbound planes at a busy airport.  That 1% will be enough.  And when that 1% hits Google looking for “Bitcoin” they are going to hit our new educational funnels that will make sure they are well trained to understand that Bitcoin is just their interim checking account.  All of that new traffic will then sort itself out into all the financial services that the newcomers are used to.  Bitcoin will get a similar percentage to what currently sits in consumer checking accounts — until people learn that their savings and brokerage accounts do checking better than Bitcoin!

So we should focus on teaching these truths to newcomers fleeing the current system. 

The rest will be history.

Gold pay no yield either, yet its market cap is about 6 trillion USD.

I think both Bitcoin and BTSX have great future, I don't see them as competitors. Bitcoin will be the new gold standard, BitshareX the new banking system.

[fluxer555]

Historic post, Stan.

[xeroc]

</amen>

[Stan]

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Nice analysis, but I see a different path to success than working toward getting BitCoin to switch to DPOS.

Here’s my reasoning:

1.  Bitcoin will never adopt DPOS.

Lets face it, Bitcoin has become first and foremost a business designed to make money for miners.  Those who run bitcoin are miners, not BTC holders.  Miners have erected a barrier to entry they won’t give up - the need for huge warehouses full of global warming hardware.  This is really no different than how banksters use captive regulators to erect barriers to entry for their competitors.  BTC miners' competitive edge is their Darwinian ability to win a global warming device arms race.  If miners adopt DPOS, they lose that competitive edge to others better suited to compete in the new arena.  Under DPOS, people skilled at attracting voters would have the advantage.  It’s like asking soccer players to deliberately change the rules for who gets the World Cup to be a chess match instead of an athletic tournament.  A different skill set is required and athletes are unlikely to win a chess competition.  So they will keep the rules set to require physical skills so they can continue to win as long as possible.

2. We don’t want Bitcoin to adopt DPOS.

This is just acknowledging our fiduciary duty to the BitShares community.  Unless a BTC upgrade honors PTS/AGS (fat chance) it would not be in the interest of BitShares supporters to have Bitcoin adopt one of our killer competitive edges.  It is in our supporters' best interest to use our edge to suck all of the wealth listed in coinmarketcap into something they own, no? 

3.  There is little delta-value in marketing to the crypto community.

Those who are technically objective will find us all by themselves.  Those who are blindly loyal to a crypto tribe will sink or swim with that tribe (while their wealth migrates to us without them).  This is an acceptable result. 

4.  The network effect of being #1 is a fleeting advantage. 

Just like every point of sale solution accepts every major credit card, they will soon accept every major crypto currency.  No merchant wants to host multiple point of sale systems.  So shopping cart providers and point of sale device providers and mobile device payment app providers will all compete to be THE universal solution.  That means including all the major cryptos and adding value to abstract away their quirks.  BitShares will be in the mix.  End of Bitcoin’s biggest advantage.

5.  Bitcoin doesn’t have any other advantages. 

Bitcoin is #1 because it has been #1.  When that ceases to be an advantage, there is no other reason for it to remain in the top tier at all.   It will go the way of the buggy whip and the phone booth.  And so will its clones.

6.  Bitcoin is just a checking account in a new financial services industry.

Look at the percentage of liquid global wealth that is currently sitting in checking accounts. One percent? Right now 99% of the liquid wealth that wants to escape the corrupt global system is sitting in crypto checking!  But when new services that flesh out the crypto financial system with everything from passbook savings to full service brokerages, how much of that wealth do you think will remain in volatile interest-free checking?  That giant sucking sound you hear is 6 billion dollars worth of current crypto wealth flowing to where it can get a better diversified mix of stability and yield.  Bitcoin will represent only a few percent of the crypto market cap within 18 months.

7.  That giant sucking sound is just a trickle compared to what’s coming.

As big as the flow out of Bitcoin will be, the flow out of the corrupt global financial system will dwarf it.  People are waking up and want out.  Maybe only 1% will wake up until we have a few more train wrecks like Cyprus, Lehman, Iceland, Argentina and MF Global, but such events are currently cueued up like inbound planes at a busy airport.  That 1% will be enough.  And when that 1% hits Google looking for “Bitcoin” they are going to hit our new educational funnels that will make sure they are well trained to understand that Bitcoin is just their interim checking account.  All of that new traffic will then sort itself out into all the financial services that the newcomers are used to.  Bitcoin will get a similar percentage to what currently sits in consumer checking accounts — until people learn that their savings and brokerage accounts do checking better than Bitcoin!

So we should focus on teaching these truths to newcomers fleeing the current system. 

The rest will be history.

[serejandmyself]

Yup. The language that gets early adopters hyped up and excited is completely different than the language that'll get the early majority excited.

Crypto geeks drool over:

• Whitepaper
• Delegated Proof of Stake
• Market pegged assets
• The word "experiment"
• Decentralized Autonomous Companies

Absolutly correct abouyt the langauge, ive done a research into succeful ANN topics on bitcointalk. And have some words that come out much more frequently then others

[bitmarket]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys.

 OK.  I think with the feedback I have received so far the bounty is a slippery little sucker to get right.

I really only wanted the bounty to grab headlines and clicks.   I think I have come up with another way to do the same without it.

Stay tuned.   I will get a video out in the next few days.  I will let you know and upvotes on reddit etc, will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
M

[bitrose]

I don't think it is an excellent idea.

In my opinion:

The bounty is $10,000

The yellow army: protect bitcoin , attack bitsharesx

The blue army: protect bitsharesx, attack bitcoin

Rule:Observe  the two currency's fluctuations , Who was the more negative who failed。
The winner will get the bounty.

[oldman]

This is an excellent idea.

Better to find any an all vulnerabilities now when they can be addressed quickly and effectively under the auspices of a work in progress.

Much better than having someone discover an attack vector at a $2bn cap and cause real mischief.

By extension, I3/DacSun should really have a substantial open/rotating bounty to attract the whitehat crowd.

[bytemaster]

I would say that breaking DPOS requires some "metric" of break.  That offering a bounty on something that cannot be objectively measured is very risky, especially if it is high profile.   Granted the controversy may be good, but I suspect that the real result of this bounty is the generation of the most effective FUD arguments followed by demands for payout.

Step 1) Define the Attacker - their goals, financial resources, and use of violence.
Step 2) Ask if they can achieve their goals
Step 3) How does this compare to alternatives?

If the "attacker" is a major world government, then their weapon of choice will be exchanges, regulations, and laws, and packet filtering assuming they wanted to "shut it down".  If they wanted to "embrace, extend, and enslave" then they would simply launch a competitor, mandate its use, and use the media to end-run around the system.  Alternatively they would use the media to brainwash the masses into voting in delegates that implement the proposals the government wants.   

If the "attacker" is an individual or company in the market then they need to earn a profit from their attack.    This means having a competitor that will go up or having the ability to short BTSX outside the network.   

In this case the relevant question is: How permanent is their attack, and how much value was lost by the users.    With DPOS... temporary and NONE.  With POW... it would take much longer to hard fork because there is no built in consensus model (voting of BTC holders) to validate the proposed changes. 

The last category of attack is "privacy".... how much privacy is leaked by the users as a result of the consensus algorithm.   This is the biggest weakness of approval voting for DPOS because your unique voting choices can tie your transactions together.   We have things in place to mitigate this, but for maximum privacy you require large sets of users to vote on the same slate of delegates *or* wide variance/randomization of your votes across all of your transactions.

I think I have shown how POW can be easily attacked with only purchasing enough hash power to kill the margins on your competitors mining pools while subsidizing your own pool.   The government attacks on POW are identical (if not more abundant) with POW systems that depend upon specialized manufacturing.   IE: neither POW or DPOS changes how a government would attempt to attack the network.... DPOS just means there network is more agile and thus delegates are more protected against government intrusion than large centralized mining pools and manufactures.    Going after a delegate is not productive, going after a pool + hardware producer is.

My conclusion is that ultimately all systems are built on people agreeing to a set of principles / rules for making decisions.  DPOS is more flexible under more conditions and thus can respond to attacks quicker and recover faster because the rules (majority of shareholders vote) are clear and obvious.  POW on the other hand lacks this process.

The only way to attack the networks based upon principles and not software is propaganda aimed at changing the opinion of the masses as to what the true, fair, chain is or should become.   

Bitcoin has the principle:  POW rules and to some extent the Bitcoin Foundation is the government body for deciding on official hard forks. 
DPOS has the principle:  User shares rule, and their votes determine the delegates which replace the Bitcoin Foundation on deciding which hard forks to adopt.

Any other *attacks* you might find on the software level are merely bugs that can be resolved and not flaws in DPOS itself.   

[rysgc]

Well this can go a couple of ways, mainly:

• Someone will have a go at it with only the bounty in their minds
• Someone will have a go at it not caring for the bounty since the result will yield much larger results
• Someone will have a go at it and keeps failing

Let's hope for the third.

[GaltReport]

This is ok if we write a proper whitepaper first and make the bounty about breaking the protocol.
We need a separate bug bounty for implementation bugs which is *not* ready for huge public bounty.

What do you consider to be the "protocol"?

The rules that govern the system.

Okay, I can see how this might work out as toast describes with a white paper and making it clear it's not trying to break the implementation.