Author Topic: Proposal - Significant Enhancement to Market Engine  (Read 25115 times)

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Offline Empirical1.1

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I will try to understand this proposal more when I have time but personally I really liked BitYield. Converting shorting demand into incentives for longs in some optimal manner seems like the right approach.

Without that you have a market that will be made obsolete quickly by someone that maximises incentives for longs.

Offline Markus

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gulu, I know you are trying to promote a variable interest rate. But do you think any trader with a time horizon below a month is going to care about any interest rate below 100 % p.a.? And those who would invest their savings in BitAssets for <10 % p.a. come after "Merchant adoption" in your timeline.

Not being allowed to short below the peg is enough "Inside mechanism" for my taste.

Offline gulu

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Market-making does not change the peg, it only tightens the spread. We do not need more complicated rules muffling short supply. Already BitUSD prices are not made by shorts but by asks (those on the same side of the orderbook as shorts). Accept that for now BitAssets will trade at around 95% and have a ±5% trading range. This will improve over time.

What is needed most to reduce volatility:
Arbitrage possibilities between inside BitShares and outside. The internal BTSX/BitUSD market alone is too one-sided for market-making to be viable and that is because the bid side (those buying BitUSD) is too shallow, not the short side too deep.
I am thinking of a bot that trades BTSX/BitUSD inside and BTSX/CNY on btc38 or bter maintaining constant exposure to BTSX and fiat (ignoring fluctuations in the USD/CNY ratio), but setting one up with my programming skills will consume more time than I have.

What we need most to tighten the peg:
Utility and trust. Both cannot be gained by market engine rule re-design.

Inside mechanism->Market peg->Utility->Merchant adoption. Not the other way around.
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Offline liondani

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Market-making does not change the peg, it only tightens the spread. We do not need more complicated rules muffling short supply. Already BitUSD prices are not made by shorts but by asks (those on the same side of the orderbook as shorts). Accept that for now BitAssets will trade at around 95% and have a ±5% trading range. This will improve over time.

What is needed most to reduce volatility:
Arbitrage possibilities between inside BitShares and outside. The internal BTSX/BitUSD market alone is too one-sided for market-making to be viable and that is because the bid side (those buying BitUSD) is too shallow, not the short side too deep.
I am thinking of a bot that trades BTSX/BitUSD inside and BTSX/CNY on btc38 or bter maintaining constant exposure to BTSX and fiat (ignoring fluctuations in the USD/CNY ratio), but setting one up with my programming skills will consume more time than I have.

What we need most to tighten the peg:
Utility and trust. Both cannot be gained by market engine rule re-design.

 +5%

Offline Markus

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Market-making does not change the peg, it only tightens the spread. We do not need more complicated rules muffling short supply. Already BitUSD prices are not made by shorts but by asks (those on the same side of the orderbook as shorts). Accept that for now BitAssets will trade at around 95% and have a ±5% trading range. This will improve over time.

What is needed most to reduce volatility:
Arbitrage possibilities between inside BitShares and outside. The internal BTSX/BitUSD market alone is too one-sided for market-making to be viable and that is because the bid side (those buying BitUSD) is too shallow, not the short side too deep.
I am thinking of a bot that trades BTSX/BitUSD inside and BTSX/CNY on btc38 or bter maintaining constant exposure to BTSX and fiat (ignoring fluctuations in the USD/CNY ratio), but setting one up with my programming skills will consume more time than I have.

What we need most to tighten the peg:
Utility and trust. Both cannot be gained by market engine rule re-design.

Offline bitmeat

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Can a swap rate be introduced that automatically adjusts based on market inefficiencies?

e.g. take avg traded for last hour v.s. feed price. if BitUSD is trading below the feed price, award BitUSD holders with interest, paid by the shorters.

So if BitUSD has been trading 20% below it's expected price, set the swap rate at 20% APR.

Likewise if BitUSD has been trading at 20% premium, it would have negative interest. (i.e. shorters would be rewarded)

This provide incentives for market participants to do the right thing. Might not be easy to implement a swap rate, but it will be well worth it.

Offline aaaxn

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The demand for BitUSD is highly correlated to how well the peg is holding up.  If it does not hold up well and has a wide spread then the demand will be low.  If it holds up very well then the demand will be very high because it is a proxy for the dollar.
Demand for BitUSD is not under control of bitshares and depend only on utility of BitUsd. If there is nothing productive you can do with bitusd why would anyone exchange real usd to bitusd? You can offer interest, but then why would anyone want to provide this interest?

Offline gulu

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Agreed. All BTAs need to be priced in BTSX. The other way makes too much confusion.

You can click the "Flip Market" icon to price USD (and other bitAssets) in BTSX rather than the other way around.  I think the new GUI that Cass and Brian are working on will probably help clarify these things or user preferences.
Right. Options in GUI are fine. But we need to get rid of confusion while discussing. It does not make sense that some BTAs are priced in BTSX like BitGLD, while some (BitUSD) are the other way around. Too much confusion.
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Offline gulu

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This proposal is adding to a "big book of rules" to scare people off, and for little gain in my humble opinion.

It is completely unnecessary to attract BTSX-bulls as market-makers. It is stated that BTSX-bulls can't easily be market-makers because in the absence of being able to cost-effectively open shorts they are forced to be long BitUSD. But why can't they just buy extra BTSX with other funds to compensate for the exposure lost in buying BitUSD. Simple! They can be long BTSX elsewhere and earn spreads as a market-maker on BitUSD. No complicated market rules are necessary!

Second, market-making does not ensure the peg. A market-maker does not in fact care whether the market is at the peg or not. They make money from the spread. If the market price is not near the feed price, market-makers can still make money but make no contribution whatsoever to whether the market trades near the peg or not. It is flawed to believe market-makers will help pegging. They will simply follow the market liquidity, wherever it is. You may be able to set up a bot to make money by "trading around the peg", but it is only theoretical if the market is not already at the peg - you will never trade any volume if the market wants to be somewhere else.

Is there a strong reason why the numerous and simpler ideas already around about a floating incentive between shorts and longs are being rejected?
Agreed. In a one-side market as of now, the market makers would end up drawing all of their funds into BitUSD, if they ever dare to try 1:1 peg.
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Offline yellowecho

Agreed. All BTAs need to be priced in BTSX. The other way makes too much confusion.

You can click the "Flip Market" icon to price USD (and other bitAssets) in BTSX rather than the other way around.  I think the new GUI that Cass and Brian are working on will probably help clarify these things or user preferences.
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Offline gulu

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You people and your intent on pricing dollars in terms of BTSX rather than BTSX in terms of dollars!   

BTSX is like cash, and BitUSD is some weird derivative contract.  It makes more sense to say "a contract is worth 32 BTSX" than to say "a BTSX is worth 0.03125 contracts".  In addition, if your "price" is how many BitUSD one BTSX is worth, then "shorting" means betting that the price will rise!

So when you said "maximum" you really meant "minimum."  I have the following picture now (using BTSX as the price):

Bob wants to short 100 BitUSD at a price of 32 BTSX per BitUSD.  Bob must put up 3200 collateral minimum, as currently, but Bob can optionally put up more collateral.  Let's say Bob puts up 4000 BTSX.  Let's also say Carol shorted $100 at 32.15 with 3215 BTSX collateral and Dan shorted $100 at 32.50 with 5000 BTSX collateral.

As long as the feed is below 32, Alice can place a Bid order at 32 BTSX and be matched against Bob; Carol and Dan were outpriced.

But when the feed rises above 32, Bob's short moves up with it (instead of being cancelled as in the current paradigm).  It can only move up as long as price times quantity is less than or equal to Bob's collateral, though; so Bob's short won't execute above a price of 40 BTSX / BitUSD.

If the feed moves up to, say, 33, then Carol is out of the running due to insufficient collateral, and Bob and Dan's shorts are both at 33.  If Alice bids at 32, she can only be filled from Ask orders (until and unless the feed falls back to 32 or below).  If Alice bids 33, she'll be matched against Dan's order; Bob won't be able to get any buyers until Dan's order is filled (or the feed moves below 32.50 so Bob is again offering a better price than Dan).

Is this a fair summary of the proposed mechanics?
Agreed. All BTAs need to be priced in BTSX. The other way makes too much confusion.
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Offline starspirit

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This proposal is adding to a "big book of rules" to scare people off, and for little gain in my humble opinion.

It is completely unnecessary to attract BTSX-bulls as market-makers. It is stated that BTSX-bulls can't easily be market-makers because in the absence of being able to cost-effectively open shorts they are forced to be long BitUSD. But why can't they just buy extra BTSX with other funds to compensate for the exposure lost in buying BitUSD. Simple! They can be long BTSX elsewhere and earn spreads as a market-maker on BitUSD. No complicated market rules are necessary!

Second, market-making does not ensure the peg. A market-maker does not in fact care whether the market is at the peg or not. They make money from the spread. If the market price is not near the feed price, market-makers can still make money but make no contribution whatsoever to whether the market trades near the peg or not. It is flawed to believe market-makers will help pegging. They will simply follow the market liquidity, wherever it is. You may be able to set up a bot to make money by "trading around the peg", but it is only theoretical if the market is not already at the peg - you will never trade any volume if the market wants to be somewhere else.

Is there a strong reason why the numerous and simpler ideas already around about a floating incentive between shorts and longs are being rejected?


Offline jonasmeyer

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You can think of increasing the collateral requirement like decreasing the leverage and thus the ROI.   

There are two ways to adjust short supply:  provide constant leverage (2:1) and variable cost (interest rate)  or provide variable leverage and constant cost (0 interest rate).   There comes a point where the leverage gained by going short is not worth the risk.

If you want the interest rate model to work you require two prediction markets working at the same time. This approach is potentially viable because any attempt to "short BitUSD out of existence" would end up in sending the interest rate prediction market through the roof.

The demand for BitUSD is highly correlated to how well the peg is holding up.  If it does not hold up well and has a wide spread then the demand will be low.  If it holds up very well then the demand will be very high because it is a proxy for the dollar.

The "dual market" approach may be the only viable solution that can operate without a price feed.  It is very challenging in deed.   

Given a price feed we can prioritize shorts very effectively by collateral.

Why not a third, variable leverage and variable cost.

Have the collateral base the effective range of what interest a short would be required to pay.  Rank the shorts by the amount of interest they are willing to pay.  Shorts willing to pay higher interest take priority.  higher leverage requires higher interest.

Average the % interest from actual trades and this is your base interest requirement.

I'm very much more in favor of the proposed interest rate models around Gulu's line, and agree that having a working client is by far the most effective, most needed work.

So I was proposing a fixed up front fee, rather than interest, since it is easier for a person to understand what their costs would be up front. However, from a game theory perspective it shouldn't matter.

Regardless, the problem with letting both things float is that you end up with a "two dimensional" market, where shorts and longs have to agree on two parameters instead of one. This adds complexity, and provides a greater opportunity for shorts and longs to not agree and sit out of the market. That said, the more I think about it, the more I think this is required.

The entire point of the peg is that we want price of btsx / $ to always equal btsx / bitUSD. So we really don't want shorts and longs competing with each other on price. They need something else to compete with. The feed encourages them to stay near the peg, but it won't respond to volatility in the btsx / $ market fast enough. People just sit out of markets if they think they can't make money, and all of our attempts so far with feeds and only letting shorts trade in a range is just making people sit out of the market.

I think we need to let the fee or interest paid float, as well as the price. Then the consensus of the market will encourage the fees to vary, rather than the price straying from the peg, but it still gives somewhere for the "market pressure" to go without forcing them out of the market entirely.

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You can think of increasing the collateral requirement like decreasing the leverage and thus the ROI.   

There are two ways to adjust short supply:  provide constant leverage (2:1) and variable cost (interest rate)  or provide variable leverage and constant cost (0 interest rate).   There comes a point where the leverage gained by going short is not worth the risk.

If you want the interest rate model to work you require two prediction markets working at the same time. This approach is potentially viable because any attempt to "short BitUSD out of existence" would end up in sending the interest rate prediction market through the roof.

The demand for BitUSD is highly correlated to how well the peg is holding up.  If it does not hold up well and has a wide spread then the demand will be low.  If it holds up very well then the demand will be very high because it is a proxy for the dollar.

The "dual market" approach may be the only viable solution that can operate without a price feed.  It is very challenging in deed.   

Given a price feed we can prioritize shorts very effectively by collateral.

Why not a third, variable leverage and variable cost.

Have the collateral base the effective range of what interest a short would be required to pay.  Rank the shorts by the amount of interest they are willing to pay.  Shorts willing to pay higher interest take priority.  higher leverage requires higher interest.

Average the % interest from actual trades and this is your base interest requirement.

I'm very much more in favor of the proposed interest rate models around Gulu's line, and agree that having a working client is by far the most effective, most needed work.

Offline jsidhu

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You can think of increasing the collateral requirement like decreasing the leverage and thus the ROI.   

There are two ways to adjust short supply:  provide constant leverage (2:1) and variable cost (interest rate)  or provide variable leverage and constant cost (0 interest rate).   There comes a point where the leverage gained by going short is not worth the risk.

If you want the interest rate model to work you require two prediction markets working at the same time.  This approach is potentially viable because any attempt to "short BitUSD out of existence" would end up in sending the interest rate prediction market through the roof.

The demand for BitUSD is highly correlated to how well the peg is holding up.  If it does not hold up well and has a wide spread then the demand will be low.  If it holds up very well then the demand will be very high because it is a proxy for the dollar.

The "dual market" approach may be the only viable solution that can operate without a price feed.  It is very challenging in deed.   

Given a price feed we can prioritize shorts very effectively by collateral.
How is it a second prediction market if its tied to an input that everyone has and is the same? Output is predicted and created from the input that is the prediction market for bitasset price.

I can imagine a big number showing the interest rate in a positive or negative % when viewing that market.. kind of like a currency swap its a simple precalculated number you see before entering in a trade.
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