Talking to BTC hodlers about mining is a waste of time

[santaclause102]

Don't give up, it does get through to some people.  I used to be one of the 'hate all altcoins' bitcoin holders until this month.  I got so tired of seeing bitcoin decline, and reading about how all the new mining coins coming in every day were hurting the price.  When I read about bitshares, and how it attempts to be an autonomous company that actually makes a profit that is returned to holders, instead of bleeding money through the expensive mining process, I became a convert. 

A dividend paying asset is far superior in the long term to an inflating currency!   That is the key selling point.  And bitshares has the best name to drive this home.  Bitcoin is the currency, Bitshares is the asset!

I'm now in the process of converting 1/3 of my bitcoins to bitshares.  (Not ready to go all in because bitcoin is still so much larger and thus less risky. If bitshares is indeed better, then my holding of it will grow in time to surpass my bitcoin holdings).

True Bitcoin is less risky short term (for the next month). But value investing tells us to buy assets which are highly undervalued which reduces the risk long term.

[James212]

Even Coindesk editors dont have a clue: http://www.coindesk.com/two-words-explain-price-movements-bitcoin/

No mention of mining expenses at all.

While I generally agree that Coindesk is POW biased, the article linked had this disclaimer listed at the bottom:

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, CoinDesk.

What an article..   It essentially is saying Bitcoin is down, because Bitcoin is down!!  Duh!!    Bitcoin is down because its perceived utility at the moment is out weighed by its costs!

[James212]

I'm now in the process of converting 1/3 of my bitcoins to bitshares.  (Not ready to go all in because bitcoin is still so much larger and thus less risky. If bitshares is indeed better, then my holding of it will grow in time to surpass my bitcoin holdings).

I'm doing a similar thing, but bitshares can be superior and still fail, for example if enough momentum isn't captured via lots of marketing.  There's a lot to do in the next 6 months!

 

[Ander]

Had you two been around during the 200 days of AGS funding, you may have obsessively, compulsively, ended up 100% in BitShares 

I wish.

It looks like you guys got into bitshares for under a penny!  I only get to be in the second wave of adopters.

[sschechter]

I'm doing a similar thing, but bitshares can be superior and still fail, for example if enough momentum isn't captured via lots of marketing.  There's a lot to do in the next 6 months!

Yes, thats the main reason I'm only doing 1/3 of my bitcoin.   If bitshares succeeds, that will be plenty.

Had you two been around during the 200 days of AGS funding, you may have obsessively, compulsively, ended up 100% in BitShares 

[Ander]

I'm doing a similar thing, but bitshares can be superior and still fail, for example if enough momentum isn't captured via lots of marketing.  There's a lot to do in the next 6 months!

Yes, thats the main reason I'm only doing 1/3 of my bitcoin.   If bitshares succeeds, that will be plenty.

[sschechter]

Even Coindesk editors dont have a clue: http://www.coindesk.com/two-words-explain-price-movements-bitcoin/

No mention of mining expenses at all.

While I generally agree that Coindesk is POW biased, the article linked had this disclaimer listed at the bottom:

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of, and should not be attributed to, CoinDesk.

[speedy]

Even Coindesk editors dont have a clue: http://www.coindesk.com/two-words-explain-price-movements-bitcoin/

No mention of mining expenses at all.

[speedy]

Don't give up, it does get through to some people.  I used to be one of the 'hate all altcoins' bitcoin holders until this month.  I got so tired of seeing bitcoin decline, and reading about how all the new mining coins coming in every day were hurting the price.  When I read about bitshares, and how it attempts to be an autonomous company that actually makes a profit that is returned to holders, instead of bleeding money through the expensive mining process, I became a convert. 

A dividend paying asset is far superior in the long term to an inflating currency!   That is the key selling point.  And bitshares has the best name to drive this home.  Bitcoin is the currency, Bitshares is the asset!

Amen!

Yes I was in frustrated rant mode when I said it was a waste of time. It definitely is worthwhile (as youve just demonstrated) to try to enlighten others about DAC profitability. Its just difficult to get the message across.

[matt608]

I'm now in the process of converting 1/3 of my bitcoins to bitshares.  (Not ready to go all in because bitcoin is still so much larger and thus less risky. If bitshares is indeed better, then my holding of it will grow in time to surpass my bitcoin holdings).

I'm doing a similar thing, but bitshares can be superior and still fail, for example if enough momentum isn't captured via lots of marketing.  There's a lot to do in the next 6 months!

[CoinHoarder]

Haha, good picture.

Admittedly I have lost my cool in that thread a few times, but I try to remain calm and cordial. I only get that way with the most stubborn of people. It is one thing to be wrong, and then when someone point it out to you that you are wrong admitting that you were. I am wrong all the time and when people can convince me that I am wrong I will be the first to admit it, it is a part of learning. It's another thing when someone is wrong and refuses to admit or, or at the very least admit you have a point.

Unfortunately, I have ran into a lot of cases of the latter from the Bitcoin crowd. I'm not saying I am 100% right all the time in terms of Bitcoin's problems and Bitshares's solutions, as some of it is based on speculation as to what will happen in the future, but a lot of people refuse to admit that I at least have somewhat of a point even though they might not agree with it. This is what annoys me.

[xeroc]

@xeroc

So, that's how one overclocks an iPhone...

.. microwave speed .. that's almost nano scale!!!

[tonyk]

@xeroc

So, that's how one overclocks an iPhone...

[Ander]

Don't give up, it does get through to some people.  I used to be one of the 'hate all altcoins' bitcoin holders until this month.  I got so tired of seeing bitcoin decline, and reading about how all the new mining coins coming in every day were hurting the price.  When I read about bitshares, and how it attempts to be an autonomous company that actually makes a profit that is returned to holders, instead of bleeding money through the expensive mining process, I became a convert. 

A dividend paying asset is far superior in the long term to an inflating currency!   That is the key selling point.  And bitshares has the best name to drive this home.  Bitcoin is the currency, Bitshares is the asset!

I'm now in the process of converting 1/3 of my bitcoins to bitshares.  (Not ready to go all in because bitcoin is still so much larger and thus less risky. If bitshares is indeed better, then my holding of it will grow in time to surpass my bitcoin holdings). 

[xeroc]

If it is not working at 500Watt you should try 900Watt!! Should work much better!

[Stan]

These are some of the most common arguments, and I am not saying they are accurate or I agree with them. Some of the arguments I think I have refuted pretty well, but some just refuse to change their minds no matter what I say.

You forgot those who believe you can charge your new iPhone 6 in the microwave...

[gamey]

  This is my thoughts from another thread.  Still applies:

"think that our first-rung goal should be the "bitcoin" trend setters (i.e. the independent thinkers...  Then, we skip over the bitcoin-religious (i.e. close-minded) and go directly to the broader market.  The bitcoin faithful will come around at their own time once sandwiched by these two waves of adoption. No sense in trying to convince an audience who has already made up their mind without even any facts.  So, in my thinking the novelty benefit will certainly help in directing the crypto market's attention to achieve out first-rung goal"

I think we all need to continue education but to think you're going to convince many is a losing battle.  I make a little headway.  Some people are open to competition etc.  In my hometown there is a group of these guys.  A bit cult like at times.  After having a discussion about how bad inflation was, I bring up that I'm heavily invested in a deflationary currency.  Oh man, I got this whole "Brother, let me set you straight and warn you against that!" spiel/vibe.  He meant well but really... couldn't even have a conversation about a deflationary currency.  This is after every ranted on for awhile about how they don't buy the inflation is good line.

Lots of little stories like this.

[Mysto]

Which video is that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-TLA3j-ic4&list=UUchU0j9bXOa_E1xbxB5MqbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo979iaLvEs&list=UUchU0j9bXOa_E1xbxB5MqbQ

Yea I figured. So you're the guy I have to thank for introducing me to bitshares. Thanks bitmarket! And great videos.

[vegolino]

Which video is that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-TLA3j-ic4&list=UUchU0j9bXOa_E1xbxB5MqbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo979iaLvEs&list=UUchU0j9bXOa_E1xbxB5MqbQ

[Mysto]

Anytime you try to introduce a brand new concept that solves a problem people were unaware they had and you have not platform (brand, email list, celebrity status) to leverage off of, it is going to be a long hard slog.  There will be no easy routes.

Expect low conversions rates.  Expect spits in the face. (Think mormons knocking on doors reactions)   But we chip away and 1or2% take notice, and momentum builds and builds.   I would argue we already have great success (of course I am biased).  There are many comments in my videos thanking me for introducing them to bitshares... And remember this is just the first and second touch.   Most sales take 7+ touches.

I know there are other people doing awesome work as well, but just one of my videos has 7,000+ views. That knowledge (inefficiency of POW) is now stuck in their head.   They can't forget it if they wanted to, no matter how hard they scream blasphemy on the forums.

As we touch them again, with other superior points of difference (videos yet to be determined) the evidence mounts and minds are changed.

I am an anarchist and an atheist. I have had thousands of conversations bringing reason and evidence to people who believe in and advocate destructive and logically inconsistent ideas.

If I were generous I would say I have managed to change the minds of maybe 1% of them.  Of those I probably did not introduce the idea to any of them. Probably others had before me and I was just the final touch that got them across the line.   Many of the people who said I was crazy might one day change their mind while speaking to another ambassador of those causes.   I will never know about it but I will have done my part.

All you can do is be a kind and generous ambassador, and love them no matter how long it takes them to change their mind and results will follow. It is not personal.  They are just dealing with their own shit and trying to get through life as best they can.  The moment you take it personally and be even a touch rude or curt, you are a poor ambassador and set the goals you are trying to achieve back massively.

By the way... we have 3 bitassets now.  Are the pegs holding?   Once the pegs hold I will do more videos on that. I can see bitGLD appeal to a certain crowd though. Although I see a split in physical and paper gold prices very soon.  How will that work?  That would hold me back from trusting bitGld too much.

Which video is that?

[bitmarket]

BTW, Any suggestions on what the next topics we should introduce to the community should be are most welcome.

Actually specifically the headlines are what is important.  I think we all know the points of difference we are trying to get across. Its about the headline that appeals to a bitcoin lover about bitcoin, that gets them intrigues in the video.  Teach them something about bitcoin.  That is what they want to learn about.  Then explain why  there is something even better.

[bitmarket]

Anytime you try to introduce a brand new concept that solves a problem people were unaware they had and you have not platform (brand, email list, celebrity status) to leverage off of, it is going to be a long hard slog.  There will be no easy routes.

Expect low conversions rates.  Expect spits in the face. (Think mormons knocking on doors reactions)   But we chip away and 1or2% take notice, and momentum builds and builds.   I would argue we already have great success (of course I am biased).  There are many comments in my videos thanking me for introducing them to bitshares... And remember this is just the first and second touch.   Most sales take 7+ touches.

I know there are other people doing awesome work as well, but just one of my videos has 7,000+ views. That knowledge (inefficiency of POW) is now stuck in their head.   They can't forget it if they wanted to, no matter how hard they scream blasphemy on the forums.

As we touch them again, with other superior points of difference (videos yet to be determined) the evidence mounts and minds are changed.

I am an anarchist and an atheist. I have had thousands of conversations bringing reason and evidence to people who believe in and advocate destructive and logically inconsistent ideas.

If I were generous I would say I have managed to change the minds of maybe 1% of them.  Of those I probably did not introduce the idea to any of them. Probably others had before me and I was just the final touch that got them across the line.   Many of the people who said I was crazy might one day change their mind while speaking to another ambassador of those causes.   I will never know about it but I will have done my part.

All you can do is be a kind and generous ambassador, and love them no matter how long it takes them to change their mind and results will follow. It is not personal.  They are just dealing with their own shit and trying to get through life as best they can.  The moment you take it personally and be even a touch rude or curt, you are a poor ambassador and set the goals you are trying to achieve back massively.

By the way... we have 3 bitassets now.  Are the pegs holding?   Once the pegs hold I will do more videos on that. I can see bitGLD appeal to a certain crowd though. Although I see a split in physical and paper gold prices very soon.  How will that work?  That would hold me back from trusting bitGld too much.

[Empirical1.1]

great photo! I've used it myself to describe Bitcoin's mining problem

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412846.msg4549051#msg4549051

You guys are all acting like Bitcoin is impregnable.
 
If you sort out the pool mining issues, then you guys can act as cocky as you like, but if you don't take the power out of the pools,





                             

I was pulling my hair out back then...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=411099.msg4512768#msg4512768

Why is 'centralization of mining' not the no.1 topic that the community is trying to address everyday?

Luckily it pushed me into understanding alternatives like BitShares 

[xeroc]

As an electrical engineering guy ... that photo was unbearable ... *autsch*

[tonyk]

@Stan
Unfortunately,
one of the most disturbing things for me is that I just do not see the natural selection working too well, when it comes to eliminating stupidity.
.....
Good Photo though! 

[Stan]

All those "reasons" make me think we need a new category for the famous "Darwin Awards"

"Those who strengthen the investor gene pool by removing themselves from contention."

[James212]

Either that or its become like a cult where you can't question anything. Many cults have pointless rituals like mining.

Bingo

I agree.. I've been debating them non stop for a few days on Bitcointalk and some of them won't budge.

Most think anything that isn't Bitcoin is a scam coin.

Some think that energy has to be consumed in the minting of Bitcoins for them to have any value.

The anarchists seem to really hate DPoS because of the election process.

Some think the exchanges have manipulated the price of PoS coins and this is the only reason for their value.

Others say the rich still get richer because they can vote in delegates controlled by themselves.

A few mentions of DPoS/BitsharesX being like a central bank... we all know how much people hate central banks.

Some think DPoS is subject to social engineering and politics

The point has been made that Delegates likely have less security measures in place and ddos resistance than Bitcoin mining pools.

Some don't understand the need for voting and the reason for only having 101 delegates.

These are some of the most common arguments, and I am not saying they are accurate or I agree with them. Some of the arguments I think I have refuted pretty well, but some just refuse to change their minds no matter what I say.

By the way.. I could use some help in the debate: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591.0

   

   This is my thoughts from another thread.  Still applies:

"think that our first-rung goal should be the "bitcoin" trend setters (i.e. the independent thinkers...  Then, we skip over the bitcoin-religious (i.e. close-minded) and go directly to the broader market.  The bitcoin faithful will come around at their own time once sandwiched by these two waves of adoption. No sense in trying to convince an audience who has already made up their mind without even any facts.  So, in my thinking the novelty benefit will certainly help in directing the crypto market's attention to achieve out first-rung goal"

[CoinHoarder]

Either that or its become like a cult where you can't question anything. Many cults have pointless rituals like mining.

Bingo

I agree.. I've been debating them non stop for a few days on Bitcointalk and some of them won't budge.

Most think anything that isn't Bitcoin is a scam coin.

Some think that energy has to be consumed in the minting of Bitcoins for them to have any value.

The anarchists seem to really hate DPoS because of the election process.

Some think the exchanges have manipulated the price of PoS coins and this is the only reason for their value.

Others say the rich still get richer because they can vote in delegates controlled by themselves.

A few mentions of DPoS/BitsharesX being like a central bank... we all know how much people hate central banks.

Some think DPoS is subject to social engineering and politics

The point has been made that Delegates likely have less security measures in place and ddos resistance than Bitcoin mining pools.

Some don't understand the need for voting and the reason for only having 101 delegates.

These are some of the most common arguments, and I am not saying they are accurate or I agree with them. Some of the arguments I think I have refuted pretty well, but some just refuse to change their minds no matter what I say.

By the way.. I could use some help in the debate: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591.0

[Method-X]

Either that or its become like a cult where you can't question anything. Many cults have pointless rituals like mining.

Bingo

[speedy]

This is about how after lots of debating on r/bitcoin, Ive concluded there are better things to spend one's time on.

They just come up with so many excuses for why paying for mining is totally fine, and that the price will still go up despite the huge costs of securing the network. Its infuriating.

Ive come to the conclusion that some Bitcoin die hards are masochists - they enjoy feeling the pain of losing money.

Either that or its become like a cult where you can't question anything. Many cults have pointless rituals like mining.

The only thing that will convince them is seeing the inevitably large market cap that will come when dividends + BitAssets really takes off.

/rant