Author Topic: How committed is the community to bitsharesX as opposed to the next "DAC"?  (Read 20102 times)

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Offline fussyhands

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Every argument you have made is true today but will not be true in the future.... to presume that this community and our product cannot find people to create similar infrastructure is a tad insulting and fatalistic.   We know what we have to do, there are HUGE profits to be made by doing it and I am confident that we can convince major infrastructure providers to get on board BTSX.

I'm not presuming it can't be done.  I'm not here for my health.  I'm merely pointing out that it will be extremely difficult.  I definitely don't buy the idea that we're going to have 100 (or even 5) different viable altcoins integrated into the world's financial systems.  Bitshares might be able to unseat Bitcoin, but to get the mainstream support you have to convince people that Bitshares is going to be the one.  That is hard when they can see that Bitcoin has 1000 times more adoption.  I've invested in Bitshares.  I think it can be done.  I just think there is a high chance for failure, and I'm trying to feel out the details of how the community thinks about these things.

Offline bytemaster

You act as if the infrastructure built around bitcoin couldn't be adapted to BTSX very quickly.   Here is the little secret that gives BTSX an edge:  it works at almost any scale. 

Regardless of BTSX market cap users can settle and contract in dollars, gold, silver, etc while getting a higher yield than their bank.   At the end of the day BTSX produces real value while BTC consumes real value.    BTC network effect is based upon people building infrastructure around BTC hoping to make money in this industry.  Their infrastructure becomes more valuable with BTSX and thus they will support it.

Actually I think it takes quite a bit of time and expense to integrate new cryptocoins into existing Bitcoin infrastructure.  Especially making sure you've done so securely.  Security is expensive.  The big players will not want to invest in adding a new altcoin unless they see that it has staying power and that it is going to become very widespread.

Also a lot of the big players do not see an advantage to it in terms of increasing the value of their infrastructure.  To them the challenge of cryptocurrencies is to make it dead simple and easy for everyday people to use it.  Reducing mental overhead is of absolutely paramount importance.  Adding choices for multiple different cryptocurrencies is in itself enough to confuse people and drive them away.  That is part of why the likes of Bitpay etc., are not jumping on the altcoin bandwagon.  They see more advantage to their infrastructure from one successful currency with extensive penetration than with dozens of competing currencies, each with partial penetration.

Also, this gets to one of Bitshares most obvious weaknesses, which partly has to do with how new it is.  The mental overhead is way way way too high.  There is drastically too much to learn to get started and feel that you have a grasp of how to use it.  The client is way too complicated.  And there is too much redefining of terminology that really doesn't need to be redefined.  Making people learn complicated new terminology imposes mental overhead and retards adoption.  The client can obviously be streamlined with time (or alternatives be offered).  But the community doesn't seem to get how all the new terminology, which is really unnecessary, is seriously hurting them.  If you just said "BitShares is a new cryptocoin that is nearly instant, more secure, less wasteful, more anonymous, more decentralized, and where you can peg value to any currency or asset you like" that would be a lot more effective than talking about multiple "decentralized autonomous corporations", "crypto equities", "bank and exchange", etc.  All this attempt at changing the paradigm gets little and costs a lot.

I think it's possible to get some of the infrastructure to support a coin technology like Bitshares, but it won't be easy either for the providers of the infrastructure or for Bitshares to convince them.

You are living up to your name.... fussy.    Nothing you stated is fixed or inherent in the technology... the technology at its core makes things easier to use:  names, price stability, etc.   What you are really describing is OPPORTUNITY for growth.   Imagine what BTSX would be worth once we have "stability", "history", "infrastructure", etc.... you buy now and hold you make money as those things are added.   The last thing you want to invest in is something that has no room for easy improvement.   

I just don't understand your reason for posting... what is your goal?   
1) Tell us it is hopeless and nothing can ever overcome Bitcoin?    That kind of attitude is not welcome nor productive.
2) Help us improve things so that we can overcome Bitcoin?  That kind of attitude is welcome and productive. 
3) Whine about things and do nothing?
4) Justify to yourself why you are not buying?

What is your goal in posting?  If you do not see the vision or the future then invest in what is king today (BTC). 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 03:53:09 pm by Stan »
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Offline stuartcharles

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Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

I know this argument well. It's one I used to personally hold onto until I realized one crucial thing... How technically difficult do you think it will be to tweak BitPay, Coinbase, Circle and every wallet that exists to be universal? It's pretty easy. Bitcoin is a proof of concept that's doing a great job laying the initial infrastructure but it you seriously think that infrastructure is "locked in" for bitcoin...

very good point, in a way its almost better if the public only learns about bitcoin it makes things less confusing. Then when mass adoption of bitcoin occurs, consumers (being the demanding folk that they are) will want faster, lighter services with more features. At this point a switch to the best alt for the job will be technologically easy and an easy learning curve for the consumer.

Offline fussyhands

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...

In basket of goods.  In buying power.  Don't delude yourself.  Buying power of gold is highly volatile.
How did you got to that conclusion? Are you really that...., or you just play one here? Anyway I am done with you also.

Sorry dude.  Go look it up.  Gold's buying power is HIGHLY volatile.  Type "gold buying power over time" into Google and look at the charts.  You're just dead wrong on this.  If you don't change your mind to accommodate the facts then you are just a deluded moron.  Not only that, but the HayekMoney article that YOU told me to read says exactly the same thing: gold is volatile.

Offline fussyhands

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PayPal has said it's working with 3 processors. BitPay, Coinbase and GoCoin.

GoCoin already processes Bitcoin, LiteCoin & Dogecoin. (1,2 & 5 on CMC) Considering we're no.4, well really no.3 if you discount Ripple's re-jig last month, it's very likely GoCoin will consider BTSX & BitAssets soon enough if they wanted to go that route.

But that doesn't mean paypal has agreed to accept litecoin through GoCoin, does it?

Offline fussyhands

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You act as if the infrastructure built around bitcoin couldn't be adapted to BTSX very quickly.   Here is the little secret that gives BTSX an edge:  it works at almost any scale. 

Regardless of BTSX market cap users can settle and contract in dollars, gold, silver, etc while getting a higher yield than their bank.   At the end of the day BTSX produces real value while BTC consumes real value.    BTC network effect is based upon people building infrastructure around BTC hoping to make money in this industry.  Their infrastructure becomes more valuable with BTSX and thus they will support it.

Actually I think it takes quite a bit of time and expense to integrate new cryptocoins into existing Bitcoin infrastructure.  Especially making sure you've done so securely.  Security is expensive.  The big players will not want to invest in adding a new altcoin unless they see that it has staying power and that it is going to become very widespread.

Also a lot of the big players do not see an advantage to it in terms of increasing the value of their infrastructure.  To them the challenge of cryptocurrencies is to make it dead simple and easy for everyday people to use it.  Reducing mental overhead is of absolutely paramount importance.  Adding choices for multiple different cryptocurrencies is in itself enough to confuse people and drive them away.  That is part of why the likes of Bitpay etc., are not jumping on the altcoin bandwagon.  They see more advantage to their infrastructure from one successful currency with extensive penetration than with dozens of competing currencies, each with partial penetration.

Also, this gets to one of Bitshares most obvious weaknesses, which partly has to do with how new it is.  The mental overhead is way way way too high.  There is drastically too much to learn to get started and feel that you have a grasp of how to use it.  The client is way too complicated.  And there is too much redefining of terminology that really doesn't need to be redefined.  Making people learn complicated new terminology imposes mental overhead and retards adoption.  The client can obviously be streamlined with time (or alternatives be offered).  But the community doesn't seem to get how all the new terminology, which is really unnecessary, is seriously hurting them.  If you just said "BitShares is a new cryptocoin that is nearly instant, more secure, less wasteful, more anonymous, more decentralized, and where you can peg value to any currency or asset you like" that would be a lot more effective than talking about multiple "decentralized autonomous corporations", "crypto equities", "bank and exchange", etc.  All this attempt at changing the paradigm gets little and costs a lot.

I think it's possible to get some of the infrastructure to support a coin technology like Bitshares, but it won't be easy either for the providers of the infrastructure or for Bitshares to convince them.

Offline Method-X

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Bitcoin is pulling further and further away from the competition everyday.  The gap of usefulness and adoption is not closing.  Bitcoin is increasing its usefulness faster than any altcoin, simply due to network effects.  Adoption is driven by usefullness.  BitsharesX is not useful because it has virtually no adoption.  Technology can increase usefulness only to a limited degree.

I know this argument well. It's one I used to personally hold onto until I realized one crucial thing... How technically difficult do you think it will be to tweak BitPay, Coinbase, Circle and every wallet that exists to be universal? It's pretty easy. Bitcoin is a proof of concept that's doing a great job laying the initial infrastructure but it you seriously think that infrastructure is "locked in" for bitcoin...

Offline bytemaster

I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be replaced in the medium term. It's unique selling point was that it solved the disadvantages of centralisation and was private. In practice it's very bad at both for most.

It's not pulling away from the competition either despite global exposure and massive investment this year it's down and struggling.

It's pulling away in terms of adoption and therefore usefulness.  Not altcoins are making significant progress in adoption, but Bitcoin has important new announcements every week.  (The entire crypto space is currently down, lead by Bitcoin's decline price decline.)

Atm BTSX isn't a competitor as it's still new and in rapid development and is currently more CPOS than DPOS. + I guess they need the same merchant, PayPal type access as Bitcoin. But in general they're developing so fast that it's a few months away from changing everything.

I doubt that PayPal is going to add support for 5 different cryptocurrencies.  Adding even 1 more is probably well more than a few months away.  No altcoins are making significant strides in mainstream adoption.  Bitcoin widens the gap everyday.

You are obviously not thinking 4 dimensionally..



Every argument you have made is true today but will not be true in the future.... to presume that this community and our product cannot find people to create similar infrastructure is a tad insulting and fatalistic.   We know what we have to do, there are HUGE profits to be made by doing it and I am confident that we can convince major infrastructure providers to get on board BTSX.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1.1

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I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be replaced in the medium term. It's unique selling point was that it solved the disadvantages of centralisation and was private. In practice it's very bad at both for most.

It's not pulling away from the competition either despite global exposure and massive investment this year it's down and struggling.

It's pulling away in terms of adoption and therefore usefulness.  Not altcoins are making significant progress in adoption, but Bitcoin has important new announcements every week.  (The entire crypto space is currently down, lead by Bitcoin's decline price decline.)

Atm BTSX isn't a competitor as it's still new and in rapid development and is currently more CPOS than DPOS. + I guess they need the same merchant, PayPal type access as Bitcoin. But in general they're developing so fast that it's a few months away from changing everything.

I doubt that PayPal is going to add support for 5 different cryptocurrencies.  Adding even 1 more is probably well more than a few months away.  No altcoins are making significant strides in mainstream adoption.  Bitcoin widens the gap everyday.

PayPal has said it's working with 3 processors. BitPay, Coinbase and GoCoin.

GoCoin already processes Bitcoin, LiteCoin & Dogecoin. (1,2 & 5 on CMC) Considering we're no.4, well really no.3 if you discount Ripple's re-jig last month, it's very likely GoCoin will consider BTSX & BitAssets soon enough if they wanted to go that route.

Offline Empirical1.1

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If you support bitcoin fine. Keep supporting it but as long as the peg is proved to work (which i am 98% certain it will work with all the bots trading) why not invest your bitcoins to bitbtc and earn interest? A small % of your bitcoins changed for bitbitcoins I think will convince you, and if not you can withdraw back to real bitcoin any time you feel like..

What interest rate can I earn?

I guess it depends on whether the interest rate seems commensurable with the possibility that the peg fails.  If the peg fails bitBTC could easily become worthless.  The peg is still experimental...

That's a good question. I don't know. I think the current yield expressed as an annual interest rate should be well known to everyone and I think it should be maximised to encourage the most BitAsset demand possible.

I also think there's a trade where you short a BitAsset and go long to maximise your interest which should be advertised to maximise BitAsset creation too. I would also be in favour of all BTSX currently burned being directed to BitAsset yield too to help bootstrap/encourage BitAsset owbership as I think that's most important for BTSX short term.

Either way with the amount of collateral backing it, a tight peg, and even just a bit of yield, whatever approach they take, BitAssets are a game changer. In a few months they'll have a track record too, but if you can anticipate that outcome now you can profit even more.

Offline fussyhands

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I have no doubt that Bitcoin will be replaced in the medium term. It's unique selling point was that it solved the disadvantages of centralisation and was private. In practice it's very bad at both for most.

It's not pulling away from the competition either despite global exposure and massive investment this year it's down and struggling.

It's pulling away in terms of adoption and therefore usefulness.  Not altcoins are making significant progress in adoption, but Bitcoin has important new announcements every week.  (The entire crypto space is currently down, lead by Bitcoin's decline price decline.)

Atm BTSX isn't a competitor as it's still new and in rapid development and is currently more CPOS than DPOS. + I guess they need the same merchant, PayPal type access as Bitcoin. But in general they're developing so fast that it's a few months away from changing everything.

I doubt that PayPal is going to add support for 5 different cryptocurrencies.  Adding even 1 more is probably well more than a few months away.  No altcoins are making significant strides in mainstream adoption.  Bitcoin widens the gap everyday.

Offline fussyhands

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Ok, I think I may have overestimated how much time you have spent researching.

How is that? 

Offline mf-tzo

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Sometimes you just have to make a leap of faith that's all from me. Others are more experienced to advise you accordingly..

Offline fussyhands

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If you support bitcoin fine. Keep supporting it but as long as the peg is proved to work (which i am 98% certain it will work with all the bots trading) why not invest your bitcoins to bitbtc and earn interest? A small % of your bitcoins changed for bitbitcoins I think will convince you, and if not you can withdraw back to real bitcoin any time you feel like..

What interest rate can I earn?

I guess it depends on whether the interest rate seems commensurable with the possibility that the peg fails.  If the peg fails bitBTC could easily become worthless.  The peg is still experimental...

Offline tonyk

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1st You really do not want to hear my comments regarding those ecumenist saying inflation is good... and yes I am fully aware of their existence.

2nd bitBasket- why not, nothing is preventing us of doing it... till then we have bitGold, though!

Price of gold is also highly volatile, and thus not suitable for currency, at least according to the paper you had me read.

highly volatile??? in what? in $
... funny man you are...

In basket of goods.  In buying power.  Don't delude yourself.  Buying power of gold is highly volatile.
How did you got to that conclusion? Are you really that...., or you just play one here? Anyway I am done with you also.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 01:30:40 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.