Ebay and Open Bazaar - maybe wrong target

[Mysto]

Consumer gets a better deal negotiating fees on his own behalf rather than attempting to let delegates do it on their behalf....  I thought about this at first, but it gets messy fast.

Yea that makes sense.

[bytemaster]

..

Yeah it sounds exciting. It should work depending on how familiar and seamless the whole experience is to the average consumer. If it's done well then circa 5% yield is probably ideal. (Because counter-intuitively past a certain yield, the average consumer may perhaps think it's 'too good' and questionable as a result. The same goes for a deposit bonus if they did one.)

Yes, the sleeper consumers would need to be assured that they would get back the same amount of USD (ie the bitUSD peg holds true)  as they put into the debit card.

I do think fees make this not so appealing.

Since we don't want the "average joe" to have to think about all this we should come up with a way where their yield from bitUSD goes towards the fees and the rest they can keep. Would that be possible?

Consumer gets a better deal negotiating fees on his own behalf rather than attempting to let delegates do it on their behalf....  I thought about this at first, but it gets messy fast.

[Mysto]

..

Yeah it sounds exciting. It should work depending on how familiar and seamless the whole experience is to the average consumer. If it's done well then circa 5% yield is probably ideal. (Because counter-intuitively past a certain yield, the average consumer may perhaps think it's 'too good' and questionable as a result. The same goes for a deposit bonus if they did one.)

Yes, the sleeper consumers would need to be assured that they would get back the same amount of USD (ie the bitUSD peg holds true)  as they put into the debit card.

I do think fees make this not so appealing.

Since we don't want the "average joe" to have to think about all this we should come up with a way where their yield from bitUSD goes towards the fees and the rest they can keep. Would that be possible?

[cube]

..

Yeah it sounds exciting. It should work depending on how familiar and seamless the whole experience is to the average consumer. If it's done well then circa 5% yield is probably ideal. (Because counter-intuitively past a certain yield, the average consumer may perhaps think it's 'too good' and questionable as a result. The same goes for a deposit bonus if they did one.)

Yes, the sleeper consumers would need to be assured that they would get back the same amount of USD (ie the bitUSD peg holds true)  as they put into the debit card.

[Rune]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Who says you have to even be aware of that currency?  Get a debit card that returns a yield from StanCard^TM or something.

Load the prepaid "StanCard" wit USD via the on-ramp service, earn interest while on the card, and unload the card when you buy something in USD from any merchant that accepts prepaid StanCards.

The idea of a debit card is appealing assuming it's kept simple and intuitive for the average user. I think the "unloading the card" part may be the biggest sticking point. If everything could be kept on one card that earns interest and works with regular POS debit machines, I can see this takikg off.

The fees for a custom prepaid debit card can be really steep though, like we saw with the xapo card.

[Method-X]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Who says you have to even be aware of that currency?  Get a debit card that returns a yield from StanCard^TM or something.

Load the prepaid "StanCard" wit USD via the on-ramp service, earn interest while on the card, and unload the card when you buy something in USD from any merchant that accepts prepaid StanCards.

The idea of a debit card is appealing assuming it's kept simple and intuitive for the average user. I think the "unloading the card" part may be the biggest sticking point. If everything could be kept on one card that earns interest and works with regular POS debit machines, I can see this takikg off.

[Empirical1.1]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Yeah but the confidence required for each target market is different

- The alt-coin market demographic is comfortable with the tech and risks involved so may jump at 5% yield.
- Argentinians with huge inflation may even jump at something stable with BTSX features for no yield.
- I think BitAssets could be huge for merchants if it's sold to them properly because they work on tight margins and BitUSD has a few other benefits too.

- Meanwhile you could offer regular consumers 10% or  baby boomers 15% and many may still not touch it as they are not tech savvy enough to understand new technology and they have a low risk tolerance.

Of course external events come into play too, in the event of global bank deposit confiscations then baby boomers may suddenly be willing to pay yield for the benefit BitAssets provide :) (Think Cyprus + Bitcoin)

Of course I still have my crazy theory...

I have a crazy theory that suggests the world financial markets could be capitulating circa Oct 20th. Whenever it happens the flight to safety capital that BTSX and BitAsset commodities in particular could absorb if they were ready,  is super massive.

Of course it's incredibly unlikely but if that happened Bitcoin would probably benefit more in the near term as we're not established yet.

I agree with you, my comment was in reference to the original comment I replied to about some random brick and mortar merchant.  At this early stage I think the value will be apparent to others already in the crypto space if we can get the word out.

Also as Stan said if there is a debit card out there with USD that is backed by bitUSD and earns bitUSD yield then the whole thing is a moot point.

Yeah it sounds exciting. It should work depending on how familiar and seamless the whole experience is to the average consumer. If it's done well then circa 5% yield is probably ideal. (Because counter-intuitively past a certain yield, the average consumer may perhaps think it's 'too good' and questionable as a result. The same goes for a deposit bonus if they did one.)

[amencon]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Yeah but the confidence required for each target market is different

- The alt-coin market demographic is comfortable with the tech and risks involved so may jump at 5% yield.
- Argentinians with huge inflation may even jump at something stable with BTSX features for no yield.
- I think BitAssets could be huge for merchants if it's sold to them properly because they work on tight margins and BitUSD has a few other benefits too.

- Meanwhile you could offer regular consumers 10% or  baby boomers 15% and many may still not touch it as they are not tech savvy enough to understand new technology and they have a low risk tolerance.

Of course external events come into play too, in the event of global bank deposit confiscations then baby boomers may suddenly be willing to pay yield for the benefit BitAssets provide :) (Think Cyprus + Bitcoin)

Of course I still have my crazy theory...

I have a crazy theory that suggests the world financial markets could be capitulating circa Oct 20th. Whenever it happens the flight to safety capital that BTSX and BitAsset commodities in particular could absorb if they were ready,  is super massive.

Of course it's incredibly unlikely but if that happened Bitcoin would probably benefit more in the near term as we're not established yet.

I agree with you, my comment was in reference to the original comment I replied to about some random brick and mortar merchant.  At this early stage I think the value will be apparent to others already in the crypto space if we can get the word out.

Also as Stan said if there is a debit card out there with USD that is backed by bitUSD and earns bitUSD yield then the whole thing is a moot point.

[cube]

Who says you have to even be aware of that currency?  Get a debit card that returns a yield from StanCard^TM or something.

Load the prepaid "StanCard" wit USD via the on-ramp service, earn interest while on the card, and unload the card when you buy something in USD from any merchant that accepts prepaid StanCards.

StanCard is already trade-marked?  Wow!  Things are moving fast..

[amencon]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Who says you have to even be aware of that currency?  Get a debit card that returns a yield from StanCard^TM or something.

Load the prepaid "StanCard" wit USD via the on-ramp service, earn interest while on the card, and unload the card when you buy something in USD from any merchant that accepts prepaid StanCards.

You're right Stan, I made that post before I was aware of the pending existence of "StanCards".  In a world where those exist, my comment doesn't apply.

[Stan]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Who says you have to even be aware of that currency?  Get a debit card that returns a yield from StanCard^TM or something.

Load the prepaid "StanCard" wit USD via the on-ramp service, earn interest while on the card, and unload the card when you buy something in USD from any merchant that accepts prepaid StanCards.

[Empirical1.1]

For now merchants accepting bitUSD need be already motivated to stay in crypto AND want the value stability of USD.  Merchants all over are already accepting BTC and converting to USD so unless they have a reason not to want to hold fiat, bitUSD won't likely appear to hold much extra value proposition than their current setup.

This is the extra value proposition:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10046.0

It's not a very good one until there is enough widespread confidence in the currency.  5% (or whatever) interest is great, but not if you have to hold some currency you don't understand and nobody else is using or talking about.

Yeah but the confidence required for each target market is different

- The alt-coin market demographic is comfortable with the tech and risks involved so may jump at 5% yield.
- Argentinians with huge inflation may even jump at something stable with BTSX features for no yield.
- I think BitAssets could be huge for merchants if it's sold to them properly because they work on tight margins and BitUSD has a few other benefits too.

- Meanwhile you could offer regular consumers 10% or  baby boomers 15% and many may still not touch it as they are not tech savvy enough to understand new technology and they have a low risk tolerance.

Of course external events come into play too, in the event of global bank deposit confiscations then baby boomers may suddenly be willing to pay yield for the benefit BitAssets provide :) (Think Cyprus + Bitcoin)

Of course I still have my crazy theory...

I have a crazy theory that suggests the world financial markets could be capitulating circa Oct 20th. Whenever it happens the flight to safety capital that BTSX and BitAsset commodities in particular could absorb if they were ready,  is super massive.

Of course it's incredibly unlikely but if that happened Bitcoin would probably benefit more in the near term as we're not established yet.

[nomoreheroes7]

Man, I'm dying to get that debit card in my hands...not sure I can handle the wait.

[amencon]

amencon,

It was just a scenario that exposed the reluctancy of a computer tech to accept bitcoin due to "he thinks its a dying currency",   and him not being aware that there are ways to accept and peg it to dollars (he feels usd is not a dying currency).      *we will see*

The point being implied...  if bitusd is implemented with payment processors, then merchants can decide to keep their digital income from sales in either bitusd,  or btc.      The advantage being if you keep it in bitusd, you can gain interest.  Or you can convert into and out of other assets,  btc etc very easily.      A problem I see with bit pay, coin base converting into usd, is that once you are in usd, it is not as liquid to convert back into btc or other digital assets as bitusd is.     

Does that sound right to you guys?

Unfortunately we don't have payment processors that can do that yet.  Also many merchants aren't going to want to stay in crypto at first.  Most businesses will want USD and not play speculator on the crypto markets.  That's not to say that over time we can't build confidence in the system and slowly have more and more merchants holding bitUSD.

Part of getting merchants to hold bitUSD will be getting their suppliers to accept bitUSD, like any network it becomes more valuable as more nodes are added.

This is why Bitcoin is valuable, I think it's a bit pie in the sky to think that all of a sudden this network of bitUSD users is going to come flooding in as soon as we get the word out.  It's going to take time and at first there won't be an overwhelming positive value proposition for holding bitUSD as a small amount of interest is worthless if there isn't first complete confidence in the currency you have to hold for it.

In the grand scheme very few merchants accept Bitcoin worldwide, and that's after years of Bitcoin proponents pushing it very hard as well as there existing payment processors that put the very well known and trusted USD directly in their account.

The challenge for us is not only to get these payment processors to include acceptance of bitUSD, but also to convince people there is value in holding bitUSD over regular USD.  I think those that think the world is going to jump on board very quickly for this is in for a bad time.

As for your example merchant, I think that anyone that sees Bitcoin as a "dying currency" is going to likely see bitUSD as a "dead currency".  We have a lot of work to do before your local brick and mortar merchant will be a good marketing avenue.

And all of this is why some are pushing for acceptance of bitUSD on OB.  OB users will be "soft" targets for use of a new crypto.  Plus it then gives bitUSD a real world proof of concept and use case to help market further to more crypto-enthusiasts.  You get enough people on board that way and then hopefully you get some coverage that makes market pegged assets well known enough to be brought to those outside the crypto realm.

As Stan says, maybe I'm not thinking BIG enough, but that seems to be the reality of the situation until Stan, Dan and the rest launch whatever super awesome secret marketing push they've been whispering about for awhile now.

What you say may be true, but I don't think merchants ever need to see bitUSD.
They get USD from an ordinary debit card and don't have a need to know there is bitUSD backing it.

• bitUSD is your crypto savings account.
  People hold it because they get a better yield than saving in fiat.
• Being able to directly spend it with a merchant is a separate value proposition.
  (Not having to convert to fiat or BTC is a convenience.)

The two complement each other but it is the savings yield that will give sleeping people their first reason to use bitUSD.

Then the fact that it is also a checking account with an attached debit card seals the deal.

But without #1, sleepers can get #2 many other ways without bitUSD.

Of course, for those who are awake, bitUSD is simply the best way to escape the risky global fiat system and both of the other two are icing on the cake.

Wow OK, that does sound like it would be the best of both worlds.  They see USD in their account like they are used to, get the interest inherent in the bitUSD system and can use those funds directly with their suppliers without them also needing to adopt into this system.  This will be very exciting if you can make it a reality.

[Stan]

amencon,

It was just a scenario that exposed the reluctancy of a computer tech to accept bitcoin due to "he thinks its a dying currency",   and him not being aware that there are ways to accept and peg it to dollars (he feels usd is not a dying currency).      *we will see*

The point being implied...  if bitusd is implemented with payment processors, then merchants can decide to keep their digital income from sales in either bitusd,  or btc.      The advantage being if you keep it in bitusd, you can gain interest.  Or you can convert into and out of other assets,  btc etc very easily.      A problem I see with bit pay, coin base converting into usd, is that once you are in usd, it is not as liquid to convert back into btc or other digital assets as bitusd is.     

Does that sound right to you guys?

Unfortunately we don't have payment processors that can do that yet.  Also many merchants aren't going to want to stay in crypto at first.  Most businesses will want USD and not play speculator on the crypto markets.  That's not to say that over time we can't build confidence in the system and slowly have more and more merchants holding bitUSD.

Part of getting merchants to hold bitUSD will be getting their suppliers to accept bitUSD, like any network it becomes more valuable as more nodes are added.

This is why Bitcoin is valuable, I think it's a bit pie in the sky to think that all of a sudden this network of bitUSD users is going to come flooding in as soon as we get the word out.  It's going to take time and at first there won't be an overwhelming positive value proposition for holding bitUSD as a small amount of interest is worthless if there isn't first complete confidence in the currency you have to hold for it.

In the grand scheme very few merchants accept Bitcoin worldwide, and that's after years of Bitcoin proponents pushing it very hard as well as there existing payment processors that put the very well known and trusted USD directly in their account.

The challenge for us is not only to get these payment processors to include acceptance of bitUSD, but also to convince people there is value in holding bitUSD over regular USD.  I think those that think the world is going to jump on board very quickly for this is in for a bad time.

As for your example merchant, I think that anyone that sees Bitcoin as a "dying currency" is going to likely see bitUSD as a "dead currency".  We have a lot of work to do before your local brick and mortar merchant will be a good marketing avenue.

And all of this is why some are pushing for acceptance of bitUSD on OB.  OB users will be "soft" targets for use of a new crypto.  Plus it then gives bitUSD a real world proof of concept and use case to help market further to more crypto-enthusiasts.  You get enough people on board that way and then hopefully you get some coverage that makes market pegged assets well known enough to be brought to those outside the crypto realm.

As Stan says, maybe I'm not thinking BIG enough, but that seems to be the reality of the situation until Stan, Dan and the rest launch whatever super awesome secret marketing push they've been whispering about for awhile now.

What you say may be true, but I don't think merchants ever need to see bitUSD.
They get USD from an ordinary debit card and don't have a need to know there is bitUSD backing it.

• bitUSD is your crypto savings account.
  People hold it because they get a better yield than saving in fiat.
• Being able to directly spend it with a merchant is a separate value proposition.
  (Not having to convert to fiat or BTC is a convenience.)

The two complement each other but it is the savings yield that will give sleeping people their first reason to use bitUSD.

Then the fact that it is also a checking account with an attached debit card seals the deal.

But without #1, sleepers can get #2 many other ways without bitUSD.

Of course, for those who are awake, bitUSD is simply the best way to escape the risky global fiat system and both of the other two are icing on the cake.