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Offline VoR0220


I have not received a message from Cob in some time and I see he has been posting on here, so I figured I'd get some feedback from you guys and what you think.

My concerns with this current model is that the DAC and Peertracks seems to be following an outdated model. That is a system where people buy music. People buying music online has begun to fall:
http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/digital-and-mobile/5855162/digital-music-sales-decrease-for-first-time-in-2013

I attribute this mostly due to the rise in streaming and the popularity of that model. But even then that is a centralized model that has treated artists unfairly due to the holding of intellectual property by large publishing companies, such as spotify distributing the revenues at different rates for artists in bigger labels.

This concept has the ability to change the game in that regard. Not only could we make a platform where every artist is paid at the same rate for the same merit but we could do it without advertising and therefore attract millions of listeners. Essentially, we should be looking at a platform that allows for people to invest in artists who distribute their music for free and then have the DAC protocol pay people according to how popular the artists are in the network. Let's be real here. Young people today buy music less and less and prefer to torrent it. However torrenting takes time and carries legal problems. If we can get this out of the way, we've stumbled on a gold mine. In addition, I think I've found a method in some old technology that would allow us to stream the music or download it. It's called Peercasting and functions like a P2P TCP server (if you're not a techie, that's basically the protocol that your Youtube videos use). This could further be enacted by having people sign off on whether a certain packet of data was distributed.

Another thing I've seen a lot of people bring up that you haven't addressed is the problem of people copying other people's music on the DAC and just taking it and distributing it. There's no way to get around that in the modern day and age, so why not build a protocol around the assumptions and encourage it in a way that allows artists and shareholders to profit? We could do this by creating a P2P database in the DAC protocol that would create audio fingerprints for songs uploaded and for each upload check the database to make sure it's not replicated. There are ways to do this on a decentralized, P2P basis.

I like the idea of artistcoins. I did not like them at first, but I have bought onto the concept so to say. However, I'm not sure there is a truly clear cut mechanism for how they would work. I would propose a mechanism in the frame that I have whereby holders of artistcoins hold the responsibility of distributing music over the network (they are the only ones allowed to seed). An artistcoin would then function as a key allowing people to distribute a set chunk of data per block processed and would then gather transaction fees per block according to how many artistcoins they have for that song/album.

In addition there is something that could be utilized that would really draw artists in. The ability for us to process where certain people are transacting from allows us to collect ip Addresses. If we utilize this we can help artists create a geographical map of where they should tour based upon total streams from different addresses. This essentially functions like an enterprise planning tool and it would bring many artists into the network.

Does anybody think this is a better system? Does anyone have any criticism they would like to levy at this? I want this to work and I just don't see it working on the current platform it is heading in.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 06:27:52 PM by VoR0220 »
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Offline davidpbrown

Surely the point of PeerTracks is choice - one option being to support the artist direct. It goes beyond the normal that's available atm and cuts out the middlemen who are traditionally leeching off those they represent, whether intentionally or not. You've just edited after my replying but I can't see what's not to like.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 06:31:16 PM by davidpbrown »
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Offline Akado

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one of my concerns exactly. buying music is pretty much a 'dying' concept. streaming came to replace it, as you can see with spotify for example.
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Offline VoR0220

Surely the point of PeerTracks is choice - one option being to support the artist direct. It goes beyond the normal that's available atm and cuts out the middlemen who are traditionally leeching off those they represent, whether intentionally or not. You've just edited after my replying but I can't see what's not to like.

I don't see how one is not choosing to support the artist by purchasing "shares"/artistcoins. I don't see why there isn't more focus on the shares/equity than there is on who gets what once its time to cash the coin in.
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Offline robrigo

The points made about buying music being a dying concept- I've wondered myself what % on average of a musician's income comes from online music sales. The price point of the current digital music distribution model is a major turn off for me- I might buy a digital album or two per year for musicians I really like, but $10-15 always seems lot a lot for digital media. If this price point came down to $5 or less on average for an album, I could see myself making more purchases. Especially if I know the artist is receiving most / all of that money. This is the possibility with PeerTracks.

I also think that musicians involved with the project would promote it directly to their fans as the best way to support their music, and I can definitely see musicians taking their own coin "to the next level" as far as incentivizing or interacting with fans. At the end of the day, BitShares Music / PeerTracks will hinge on the artists that decide to use it for distribution, and getting the point across to music fans that they can profit by finding the best talent on the DAC and holding their coins.

Another thing I've seen a lot of people bring up that you haven't addressed is the problem of people copying other people's music on the DAC and just taking it and distributing it. There's no way to get around that in the modern day and age, so why not build a protocol around the assumptions and encourage it in a way that allows artists and shareholders to profit? We could do this by creating a P2P database in the DAC protocol that would create audio fingerprints for songs uploaded and for each upload check the database to make sure it's not replicated. There are ways to do this on a decentralized, P2P basis.

From my understanding, the audio files won't be stored on chain, but rather PeerTracks will be authorizing downloads from their servers. Their app watches the blockchain for a music sale, then allows that account in PeerTracks to D/L the file. I assume that musicians that wish to use the PeerTracks service will have to do some form of verification to prove that they are the actual musician they claim to be.

Offline VoR0220

The points made about buying music being a dying concept- I've wondered myself what % on average of a musician's income comes from online music sales. The price point of the current digital music distribution model is a major turn off for me- I might buy a digital album or two per year for musicians I really like, but $10-15 always seems lot a lot for digital media. If this price point came down to $5 or less on average for an album, I could see myself making more purchases. Especially if I know the artist is receiving most / all of that money. This is the possibility with PeerTracks.

I also think that musicians involved with the project would promote it directly to their fans as the best way to support their music, and I can definitely see musicians taking their own coin "to the next level" as far as incentivizing or interacting with fans. At the end of the day, BitShares Music / PeerTracks will hinge on the artists that decide to use it for distribution, and getting the point across to music fans that they can profit by finding the best talent on the DAC and holding their coins.

Another thing I've seen a lot of people bring up that you haven't addressed is the problem of people copying other people's music on the DAC and just taking it and distributing it. There's no way to get around that in the modern day and age, so why not build a protocol around the assumptions and encourage it in a way that allows artists and shareholders to profit? We could do this by creating a P2P database in the DAC protocol that would create audio fingerprints for songs uploaded and for each upload check the database to make sure it's not replicated. There are ways to do this on a decentralized, P2P basis.

From my understanding, the audio files won't be stored on chain, but rather PeerTracks will be authorizing downloads from their servers. Their app watches the blockchain for a music sale, then allows that account in PeerTracks to D/L the file. I assume that musicians that wish to use the PeerTracks service will have to do some form of verification to prove that they are the actual musician they claim to be.

Most artists make squat off of their record sales. Those usually go to the record label. Same with the streams. I can see people like yourself who will purchase the song for permanent use and I suppose that should be factored into it. But I still see the majority of the populace going on a streaming basis, and reluctant to pay in the future for music, hence why I advocate a model based on streaming, with a supplement for fully downloading to be purchased.

As for Peertracks authorizing downloads, that's a centralized institution distributing the music. I think we should aim for a decentralized database with the songs available to stream. In other words, why not integrate the platforms and keep the entire process decentralized? The problems with this are with the possibility of clutter and people claiming that they have new music when they don't. We could confront this (imperfectly) with a voting system combined with audio fingerprints. We could have it where a certain number of votes from shareholders could knock a certain track out of the database.

What do you guys think of this?
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Offline Shentist

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they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.

Offline xeroc

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they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.
That's what cob stated somewhere .. however they will start with the "dying" branch and (will have to) move over to a streaming platform ..
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Offline VoR0220

they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.
That's what cob stated somewhere .. however they will start with the "dying" branch and (will have to) move over to a streaming platform ..

they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.
EXACTLY!

It's not in the plans thus far. I would think if you're trying to get this off the ground, you would want to get a few popular musicians as well as younger more underground musicians to sign on as well as attract a base of young people to use it. I think the majority of young people don't buy music. I do however think that they buy a lot of merch and go to a lot of shows. I think that's what the purchase should be focusing on. It just makes more sense to start from a streaming platform than a buying platform.

Side note:
Nobody has commented on the geographic mapping tool yet. Does anybody think that this would help bring artists on board?
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Offline Mysto

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they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.
That's what cob stated somewhere .. however they will start with the "dying" branch and (will have to) move over to a streaming platform ..

Yea I also think they should start with a streaming platform then if necessary move to a selling digital copies platform.

Offline Pheonike

The PeerTracks is needed for the vetting the artist. They can offer the artist verification and vetting function that's needed to help prevent impersonators. You can verified accounts like twitter.

Offline robrigo

they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.
That's what cob stated somewhere .. however they will start with the "dying" branch and (will have to) move over to a streaming platform ..

they could easily adapte to streaming. so dosen't matter if they want to sell or stream the songs.
EXACTLY!

It's not in the plans thus far. I would think if you're trying to get this off the ground, you would want to get a few popular musicians as well as younger more underground musicians to sign on as well as attract a base of young people to use it. I think the majority of young people don't buy music. I do however think that they buy a lot of merch and go to a lot of shows. I think that's what the purchase should be focusing on. It just makes more sense to start from a streaming platform than a buying platform.

Side note:
Nobody has commented on the geographic mapping tool yet. Does anybody think that this would help bring artists on board?

I spoke with cob in Vegas for a while (we also were lucky to be next to each other on the plane home lol) and he mentioned something about the idea of also providing an incentive to users who create the best playlists on PeerTracks, with user curated playlists like 8tracks.com has. Not sure if that was on the road map explicitly or just brainstorming but I think that would be successful. Google Music All Access streaming is human curated streams. That's what Beats Music was supposed to be as well. Now there is more reason to participate than just reputation on the site, as users can get rewarded for curating excellent playlists.

I could see the geographic tool being useful but that seems like something that would have to be off chain, as IP addresses aren't exposed AFAIK. So PeerTracks, as a centralized service, could provide that using the IP addresses of their users but a decentralized version just based off users in the DAC seems infeasible / more complex. You'd compromise security by linking users to IP addresses on chain.

Offline Pheonike

Starting a streaming services requires a lot of bandwidth and other infrastructure. It is hard to anticipate those cost without knowing what the demand on the service will be. Streaming can added afterwards when other parts of the platform are more solid. There's a lot of moving parts here and the average consumer isn't as tolerate as us cryto-nerds who understand how hard this stuff is to get right.

Offline VoR0220

I spoke with cob in Vegas for a while (we also were lucky to be next to each other on the plane home lol) and he mentioned something about the idea of also providing an incentive to users who create the best playlists on PeerTracks, with user curated playlists like 8tracks.com has. Not sure if that was on the road map explicitly or just brainstorming but I think that would be successful. Google Music All Access streaming is human curated streams. That's what Beats Music was supposed to be as well. Now there is more reason to participate than just reputation on the site, as users can get rewarded for curating excellent playlists.

I could see the geographic tool being useful but that seems like something that would have to be off chain, as IP addresses aren't exposed AFAIK. So PeerTracks, as a centralized service, could provide that using the IP addresses of their users but a decentralized version just based off users in the DAC seems infeasible / more complex. You'd compromise security by linking users to IP addresses on chain.

IP Addresses, to my knowledge, are exposed when you make a transaction. I could be wrong there, but that was my understanding. If anyone would like to clarify and make me feel like a bonehead, that would be more than welcome. 

I really do like the playlist idea though. That is neat.

Starting a streaming services requires a lot of bandwidth and other infrastructure. It is hard to anticipate those cost without knowing what the demand on the service will be. Streaming can added afterwards when other parts of the platform are more solid. There's a lot of moving parts here and the average consumer isn't as tolerate as us cryto-nerds who understand how hard this stuff is to get right.

The thing is though, we have all the bandwidth we need with a peercast system made up of all the people who are investing in the artist. We just need to structure the incentive system properly.

Here's what I was thinking. You buy an artistcoin and this gives you the ability to seed/swarm (like Bittorrent protocol) a particular file of music. We limit the amount they are allowed to stream according to the demands of the network. So for example, we buy an artist coin and this gives us the ability to stream Drake "Hold on we're going home" at 1mb per block in the blockchain. We set the protocol to automatically look for clients in demand of stream and to give the amount of information demanded. The user signs a digital signature with the person distributing the stream that says they received it. The distributor is now entitled to a part of the pot made from transaction fees + inflation.

Am I making any sense?
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Offline robrigo

I think your IP would be exposed to the peers you are connected to in the network, but not in a public manner on the chain. Those nodes would likely have to log the IPs connected to them in order to get that information. Even then, I don't think the peers can determine which transaction correlates to which IP. I don't see how you could link the purchase of a specific song to an IP address on chain w/o the inherent security issues but I am by no means an expert or versed in the bitshares_toolkit network code.

My question for the torrent style distribution is how could you prevent a copycat from listing music that isn't their own for stream in a decentralized manner? The artists would want to register and distribute their own artistcoin, but if Carl comes along and registers beyoncecoin and starts uploading / streaming Beyonce on the torrent network, how can we prevent that in the fully distributed system? A centralized service like PeerTracks solves this by being able to disallow fakes / copycats. Sure, someone could take the name an artist wanted to use for a coin and register it as an asset. But the actual distribution can be restricted to music of verified musicians. Maybe artistcoin names could be auctioned DNS style?

I think the user experience would be simplified a lot using the centralized service like PeerTracks that can be accessed as a web app. Then the user doesn't need to interact with the BTS Music client. It seems to me a simple web experience would drive more mainstream users to use the system then dealing with the torrent streaming stuff in a client. It may seem pretty basic for this community but there is definitely a large number of people who aren't exactly sure what torrent networks are or how to use it them. Good food for thought, though. Maybe a separate app could be built that utilizes the Music DAC and facilitates something similar to what you are describing.

 

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