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Offline happybit

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I heard on one of the many many hours of videos about Bitshares Dan or Nikolai mention that ONE 10s Block is more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations

Is this true? 

Offline Stan

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 02:25:14 AM »
I heard on one of the many many hours of videos about Bitshares Dan or Nikolai mention that ONE 10s Block is more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations

Is this true?

Yes, if you are taking the BTC recommended most conservative approach:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Confirmation

If you do, in ten seconds BTSX achieves what it takes Bitcoin 3600 seconds to do for a theoretical best-case performance gain of 360x.

This is what enthusiastic marketers would call "more that two freaking orders of magnitude!"

Note that Brian & Co Marketeers prefer to understate our performance. They just say,  "Ten times faster."

« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 02:31:50 AM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 02:33:05 AM »
I heard on one of the many many hours of videos about Bitshares Dan or Nikolai mention that ONE 10s Block is more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations

Is this true?

Yes, if you are taking the BTC recommended most conservative approach:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Confirmation

If you do, in ten seconds BTSX achieves what it takes Bitcoin 3600 seconds to do for a theoretical best-case performance gain of 360x.

This is what enthusiastic marketers would call "more that two freaking orders of magnitude!"

Note that Brian & Co Marketeers prefer to understate our performance. They just say,  "Ten times faster."

You should not fill his brain with facts Stan!
'Do not let the facts that stay on the way of a good story!' - is a guiding principle of his.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 02:39:42 AM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 07:20:32 AM »
'Do not let the facts that stay on the way of a good story!' - is a guiding principle of his.
I had a rather long discussion about this particular 10 times (vs. 60 times) discussion with Brian .. was funny and ended with this picture:


 :D
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Offline happybit

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 10:53:28 AM »
'Do not let the facts that stay on the way of a good story!' - is a guiding principle of his.
I had a rather long discussion about this particular 10 times (vs. 60 times) discussion with Brian .. was funny and ended with this picture:


 :D

Hahahaha... nice.. do you have a link to that discussion?

Offline xeroc

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 11:22:06 AM »
Nah .. was chatting with him on a private channel .. not much happend there except Brian teaching me some basics about marketing :)
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Offline happybit

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 02:48:44 PM »
I think that DPOS and PoS in general is fighting against such a strong, and now 'established' community of POW supporters, that it would be really good to make a PRO-CON wiki showing all the pros and cons of each in a table format.

I'm still not really sure how all those super intelligent people support POW if it is as unnecessary as the proof-of-stake community claims, including delegated proof of stake.

Have you seen anything like that?

Offline testz

Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 02:52:19 PM »
I think that DPOS and PoS in general is fighting against such a strong, and now 'established' community of POW supporters, that it would be really good to make a PRO-CON wiki showing all the pros and cons of each in a table format.
...

Have you seen this wiki? http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_BitShares%3F

Offline Ander

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 05:19:09 PM »
I'm still not really sure how all those super intelligent people support POW if it is as unnecessary as the proof-of-stake community claims, including delegated proof of stake.

Because they have created a religion in which all altcoins, and especially all non-PoW coins are scams, and then they refuse to think about the issue any more.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline amencon

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 06:14:58 PM »
I'm still not really sure how all those super intelligent people support POW if it is as unnecessary as the proof-of-stake community claims, including delegated proof of stake.

Because they have created a religion in which all altcoins, and especially all non-PoW coins are scams, and then they refuse to think about the issue any more.
They haven't created a "religion" nor a "cult".  I agree examples of "tribalism" are rampant among many Bitcoin supporters (as well as other cryptos, this one included) but I don't think that wording fits at all in any case that it's used related to new crypto tech communities.  It's insulting and inflammatory, but not very accurate.

Further, the vast majority of transactions are perfectly fine to be accepted with 0 confirmations.  In most use cases bitcoin transactions will be relatively close to how fast current DPOS transactions are.  In my opinion there are plenty of benefits from the DPOS system where we don't need to misrepresent the facts, though it is a nice marketing line.

Offline happybit

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 04:10:38 PM »
I'm still not really sure how all those super intelligent people support POW if it is as unnecessary as the proof-of-stake community claims, including delegated proof of stake.

Because they have created a religion in which all altcoins, and especially all non-PoW coins are scams, and then they refuse to think about the issue any more.
They haven't created a "religion" nor a "cult".  I agree examples of "tribalism" are rampant among many Bitcoin supporters (as well as other cryptos, this one included) but I don't think that wording fits at all in any case that it's used related to new crypto tech communities.  It's insulting and inflammatory, but not very accurate.

Further, the vast majority of transactions are perfectly fine to be accepted with 0 confirmations.  In most use cases bitcoin transactions will be relatively close to how fast current DPOS transactions are.  In my opinion there are plenty of benefits from the DPOS system where we don't need to misrepresent the facts, though it is a nice marketing line.

I agree, I don't believe it is a case of "religious/cult" adherence.  The whole crypto community is the exact anthesis of that in my view.

I will look at the link, Thanks guys

I have read so much, but it is overwhelming so please bear with me, and other newbies.  Having ANYONE attack those who are trying to learn in their own way, and coming to ask questions, is really detrimental to Bitshare's success

You never know who a "newbie" is, and from my experience of personally helping and explaining bitcoin to well over 2000 individuals, I can tell you that sometimes the most unlikely "student/newbie" becomes a beacon of hope, information and growth to the community!  Be it Bitcoin, Bitshares or some other alt-coin

-- Be nice! -- yes, this is mainly directed at TONYK.  (I read a lot of your posts saying where you say you will try to change etc, good luck!) --

Offline amencon

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 08:10:19 PM »
I'm still not really sure how all those super intelligent people support POW if it is as unnecessary as the proof-of-stake community claims, including delegated proof of stake.

Because they have created a religion in which all altcoins, and especially all non-PoW coins are scams, and then they refuse to think about the issue any more.
They haven't created a "religion" nor a "cult".  I agree examples of "tribalism" are rampant among many Bitcoin supporters (as well as other cryptos, this one included) but I don't think that wording fits at all in any case that it's used related to new crypto tech communities.  It's insulting and inflammatory, but not very accurate.

Further, the vast majority of transactions are perfectly fine to be accepted with 0 confirmations.  In most use cases bitcoin transactions will be relatively close to how fast current DPOS transactions are.  In my opinion there are plenty of benefits from the DPOS system where we don't need to misrepresent the facts, though it is a nice marketing line.

I agree, I don't believe it is a case of "religious/cult" adherence.  The whole crypto community is the exact anthesis of that in my view.

I will look at the link, Thanks guys

I have read so much, but it is overwhelming so please bear with me, and other newbies.  Having ANYONE attack those who are trying to learn in their own way, and coming to ask questions, is really detrimental to Bitshare's success

You never know who a "newbie" is, and from my experience of personally helping and explaining bitcoin to well over 2000 individuals, I can tell you that sometimes the most unlikely "student/newbie" becomes a beacon of hope, information and growth to the community!  Be it Bitcoin, Bitshares or some other alt-coin

-- Be nice! -- yes, this is mainly directed at TONYK.  (I read a lot of your posts saying where you say you will try to change etc, good luck!) --
Hmm I realize I didn't answer your main question, I think there are pros and cons to each system.  POW has the benefit of being utilized on a large scale for many years with Bitcoin.  It's a tested consensus mechanism and in most cases has been "good enough".

Scale a DPOS DAC to Bitcoin levels and have it run mostly smoothly for years and I bet you'll get a lot more DPOS proponents.

For the most part I think most people are interested in the Bitcoin network and bulding it's partnerships and infrastructure.  As long as Bitcoin has the largest network you are going to see people focused on growing that system regardless of other theoretical improvements being offered by startups.

Offline happybit

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Re: Is ONE 10s Block really more secure then 6 BTC block confirmations?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2014, 01:07:05 AM »
I'm still not really sure how all those super intelligent people support POW if it is as unnecessary as the proof-of-stake community claims, including delegated proof of stake.

Because they have created a religion in which all altcoins, and especially all non-PoW coins are scams, and then they refuse to think about the issue any more.
They haven't created a "religion" nor a "cult".  I agree examples of "tribalism" are rampant among many Bitcoin supporters (as well as other cryptos, this one included) but I don't think that wording fits at all in any case that it's used related to new crypto tech communities.  It's insulting and inflammatory, but not very accurate.

Further, the vast majority of transactions are perfectly fine to be accepted with 0 confirmations.  In most use cases bitcoin transactions will be relatively close to how fast current DPOS transactions are.  In my opinion there are plenty of benefits from the DPOS system where we don't need to misrepresent the facts, though it is a nice marketing line.

I agree, I don't believe it is a case of "religious/cult" adherence.  The whole crypto community is the exact anthesis of that in my view.

I will look at the link, Thanks guys

I have read so much, but it is overwhelming so please bear with me, and other newbies.  Having ANYONE attack those who are trying to learn in their own way, and coming to ask questions, is really detrimental to Bitshare's success

You never know who a "newbie" is, and from my experience of personally helping and explaining bitcoin to well over 2000 individuals, I can tell you that sometimes the most unlikely "student/newbie" becomes a beacon of hope, information and growth to the community!  Be it Bitcoin, Bitshares or some other alt-coin

-- Be nice! -- yes, this is mainly directed at TONYK.  (I read a lot of your posts saying where you say you will try to change etc, good luck!) --
Hmm I realize I didn't answer your main question, I think there are pros and cons to each system.  POW has the benefit of being utilized on a large scale for many years with Bitcoin.  It's a tested consensus mechanism and in most cases has been "good enough".

Scale a DPOS DAC to Bitcoin levels and have it run mostly smoothly for years and I bet you'll get a lot more DPOS proponents.

For the most part I think most people are interested in the Bitcoin network and bulding it's partnerships and infrastructure.  As long as Bitcoin has the largest network you are going to see people focused on growing that system regardless of other theoretical improvements being offered by startups.

Thanks, got it... and also LOVED the Comparison Table! :)

 

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