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Offline emski

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Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with dillution
« on: October 19, 2014, 12:48:17 PM »

This is related to my post in bytemaster's thread .

My proposal:
Kill PTS and AGS with one final snapshot.
Create a non-dillutable bitasset (on BTSX chain), lets call it GENESIS. Genesis should honor AGS and PTS 50/50. GENESIS total amount should be 20% of 2B (20% of total amount of BTSX). So the BTSX blockchain should have ~2Billion BTSX and 400 Mil GENESIS (200 mil allocated to PTS holders and 200 mil allocated to AGS holders).

Future snapshot should honor the new BTSX chain but should include both BTSX and GENESIS shares proportionally. So if a new DAC issues 2.4 Billion shares then each BTSX should get 1 share and each GENESIS also should get 1 non-dillutable share. GENESIS shares should be non-dillutable in any future event and (perhaps) they should not be able to vote on dilution.

I think this represents best the initial purpose and promise for AGS and PTS while still incorporates everything in one chain. It will also solve some dillution controversies nicely -> market will decide. If someone is not happy with dillution then he/she should buy GENESIS.

Thoughts ?

UPDATE: deleted
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 06:46:21 PM by emski »

Offline xeroc

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 01:40:52 PM »
Sounds good ..

but ... can you DO it?
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Offline emski

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 01:42:01 PM »
Sounds good ..

but ... can you DO it?

A lot of people are able to do it. Technically I don't see issues.
Legally on the other hand....

Offline xeroc

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 01:46:22 PM »
A lot of people are able to do it. Technically I don't see issues.
Legally on the other hand....
yhea .. that's the big issue here ... and most people would rather see I3 handle all of this instead of acting themselves (me included)

What would it take to make it "easier" for someone to actually DO it?
Can we prepare the necessary (technical) tool? So that someone else can focus on the legal part?

What actually are the legal implications of this?
The legal entity did never receive funds from AGS/PTS ..!?
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Offline joele

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 01:58:27 PM »
I like your proposal except include BTSX in the snapshot.
If BTSX included then the price of GENESIS will become almost worthless.

Offline emski

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 02:14:48 PM »
I like your proposal except include BTSX in the snapshot.
If BTSX included then the price of GENESIS will become almost worthless.
Remember GENESIS is non-dillutable and AGS and PTS were meant to get 10% each from future DACs. This is accomplished. Regular BTSX is a subject for dillution. Its price should be lower. And here is the beauty -> you dont care for whining crowds that argue about dillution -> If anyone wants NOT to be diluted then he/she should buy GENESIS.

Offline joele

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2014, 02:53:03 PM »
I like your proposal except include BTSX in the snapshot.
If BTSX included then the price of GENESIS will become almost worthless.
Remember GENESIS is non-dillutable and AGS and PTS were meant to get 10% each from future DACs. This is accomplished. Regular BTSX is a subject for dillution. Its price should be lower. And here is the beauty -> you dont care for whining crowds that argue about dillution -> If anyone wants NOT to be diluted then he/she should buy GENESIS.

Yes, but the price of PTS will reduce to 85% (1/5 btsx value) there will be a major dumping before the snapshot.

Offline emski

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2014, 03:20:38 PM »
The price is irrelevant.

sumantso

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2014, 03:24:04 PM »
I still don't get why we can't have a single DPoS+TITAN standalone coin. We see useless coins claiming some half-baked feature high on the market cap; and this one would actually be a well distributed coin with two excellent features - in the areas of anonymity and low cost maintenance - and would have a sort dividend being paid out at random intervals.

If necessary just snapshot PTS and AGS and make the equivalent of Bitshares Me which will also support cheap user issued assets (like NXT but with cooler features and dividend payout).

Offline emski

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 03:29:10 PM »
I still don't get why we can't have a single DPoS+TITAN standalone coin. We see useless coins claiming some half-baked feature high on the market cap; and this one would actually be a well distributed coin with two excellent features - in the areas of anonymity and low cost maintenance - and would have a sort dividend being paid out at random intervals.

If necessary just snapshot PTS and AGS and make the equivalent of Bitshares Me which will also support cheap user issued assets (like NXT but with cooler features and dividend payout).

That is the proposal. Just the BTSX (GENESIS) issued from PTS/AGS snapshots are non-dillutable.

Offline Pheonike

Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 04:51:50 PM »
By including it in btsx we get the tx fees.

Offline yellowecho

Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2014, 04:59:53 PM »
I agree with your idea of combining AGS/PTS into a 'genesis'; however, I think it'd be more beneficial for all if this 'genesis' was an asset on the exchange earning 10% interest as defined by the social contract.  All that would be asked of new DACs would be for them to use bitUSD as a currency... doing so would generate the 10% interest for the genesis bond holders just as it would for them to receive a 10% stake.

To think of it differently, 'genesis' would be a long-term investment vehicle as it is today (bond/security) earning 10% interest.  BTS would be an equity for BitShares.  And bitUSD would be a currency.  New DACs would honor shareholders by using bitUSD which would essentially add to BTS reserves which is actually better for 'genesis' shareholders as it has the benefits of AGS/PTS with reduced costs (no PoW), increased liquidity (for AGS), and increased stability for PTS (no flash crashes after snapshots).  The system would grow more organically and everyone wins.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 05:13:39 PM by yellowecho »
696c6f766562726f776e696573

Offline tonyk

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2014, 05:49:46 PM »
I like having genesis asset on the BTSX exchange.
And as one of the aims of BM's proposal is reducing complexity - why just BTSX and AGS, let's include BTSX also in this  GENESYS asset.That way we will have just one asset for genesis purposes. To follow the percentages in the OP  we will end with the following %s:

10% AGS
10% PTS
80% BTSX

Biggest advantages of the OP proposal:
-no delusion for BTSX
-simplicity - one  GENESYS for the future
-Tradable AGS (for all practical purposes)

+5%

The only things I have - I do not think as of today the system supports user issued assets' distribution to imported priv. key.; and importing priv keys taken from TITAN account into the new DACs - but the first should not be to hard/time consuming coding job and for the second we will need some kind of tool sooner or later anyway, it seems.

 [edit] for math
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 07:55:09 PM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline yellowecho

Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2014, 05:59:52 PM »
Creating an asset without interest doesn't fix the pump and dump volatility problem of PTS and doesn't really guarantee any sort of return.  In fact, doing so would actually be negative for AGS because it means AGS positions could be liquidated.  Why not treat the new asset like a bond earning 10% and forget all the snapshots?  New DACs would use bitUSD which would be extra bullish for bond holders.
696c6f766562726f776e696573

Offline tonyk

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Re: Proposal to resolve single (BIG) issue with AGS/PTS
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 06:01:23 PM »
Creating an asset without interest doesn't fix the pump and dump volatility problem of PTS and doesn't really guarantee any sort of return.  In fact, doing so would actually be negative for AGS because it means AGS positions could be liquidated.  Why not treat the new asset like a bond earning 10% and forget all the snapshots?  New DACs would use bitUSD which would be extra bullish for bond holders.

I do not think your proposal is doable in practice. Doable in terms of the cost of the solution will be more than any perceived benefit.

The price of this genesis asset is not the issue we are discussing here, imho.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 06:08:37 PM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

 

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