Poll

How should 3rd-party DAC developers honor the social consensus?

10% to AGS, 10% to GENESIS (which snapshots PTS 100%)
20% to GENESIS (which snapshots AGS/PTS 50/50)
10% to AGS, 10% to BTS, let PTS die
20% to BTS, let AGS and PTS die

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Offline biophil

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[POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« on: October 24, 2014, 02:26:21 PM »

One of the pressing questions we face in the long-term is the issue of 3rd-party DAC developers and who they should airdrop to. Here are the options that I've seen discussed (my favorite option is #3 or #4, btw):

1. We could leave AGS as-is, and port only PTS into GENESIS (user-issued asset on BTS). That way, GENESIS is essentially PTS 2.0, and we preserve the idea that AGS is the illiquid share class, PTS is the liquid one.

2. There have been at least two proposals (by Shentist and emski, I believe) to create a user-issued asset on the new BTS called GENESIS and snapshot it 50/50 AGS/PTS. Then new DACs would honor GENESIS with a 20% snapshot. I'm not crazy about combining AGS with anything like that. IMO, AGS should be left alone (disclosure: I own only 12 AGS; I'm not speaking from dishonest bias here).

3. Let PTS end, but preserve AGS. Now, 3rd-party devs would be recommended to honor 10% AGS and 10% BTS. It does still give a slight preference to pre-Feb28 donators, but only a slight one, and preserves the original intentions of AGS. It ends PTS, which simplifies the marketing message (PTS was always a weird idea, don't you think?).

4. Invictus has floated the idea that they should honor the new BTS with 20%. The rationale is that the new BTS snapshotted AGS/PTS and thus honoring BTS is like honoring AGS/PTS. The dramatic flaw in this proposal is that it gives a huge preference to pre-Feb28 AGS donators. For that reason, I strongly oppose this option because it's severely unfair to those who donated after the original BTSX snapshot.


Discuss.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 04:13:11 PM by biophil »

Offline Pheonike

Re: DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 02:39:55 PM »
We should add if airdrop to AGS/pts then can not use bitusd.

Offline pc

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Re: DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 02:43:57 PM »
IMO PTS as a standalone blockchain will die anyway after nov-5, simply because so much of its value is transferred into BTS that mining it will be an economic suicide.

So if PTS is to be honoured in the future, it'll have to be somehow turned into an asset. Your proposal #3 is closest to the original social contract. #2 is equivalent in terms of distribution, with the additional advantage (for AGS owners) that AGS will become liquid. I wouldn't mind that, although I don't hold any AGS.

You proposal #4 is the worst for PTS holders, obviously. I really don't see justification for that. #1 is bad for both AGS and PTS holders. No justification either.
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Offline Method-X

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 04:29:11 PM »
20% (or more!) to BTS because it simplifies everything tremendously. Let AGS and PTS die.

Ultimately, 3rd party developers will snapshot whatever they think will get them the most momentum.

Offline bobmaloney

Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 04:59:18 PM »
PTS/AGS must offer something of benefit to future projects. If we attempt to position ourselves as coercive gatekeepers, we will only harm the growth of the ecosystem.

That being said, I believe there are plenty of potential projects that will find ample benefit in voluntarily issue to the PTS/AGS demographic.
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Offline Riverhead

Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 05:10:24 PM »
I'm for option #2 actually.  Reasons

1) BTS can be useful for GENESIS as a host for the asset but BitShares is its own stand alone product. It would be like doing a snapshot of a snapshot. We wouldn't snapshot Music DAC so we shouldn't BTS.

2) If PTS and AGS are rolled into an asset called GENESIS nothing much would change except simplifying things. AGS is static and, IMHO, has already gotten the advantage of non liquidity by the effective multiplier naturally caused by how the auction turned out. Unless we think people will trade PTS/AGS differently as an asset or that a DAC will do 20% PTS and 10% AGS there's no reason to keep them separate other than convention.

3) Converting PTS to DPOS would be a lot of work (maybe,  I have no idea). Someone would have to sign up for that. Having a POW coin to track airdrop distribution of DPOS (which we're pushing as being much better than POW) seems counter message.

While during the call I was advocating that PTS can live on it's not PTS itself that people want to live on; it's the social contract they all bought into. If GENESIS can preserve and prolong (no dependence on miners!!) that social contract the actual manifestation of the token is immaterial.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:20:20 PM by Riverhead »

Offline graffenwalder

Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 05:11:17 PM »
One of the pressing questions we face in the long-term is the issue of 3rd-party DAC developers and who they should airdrop to. Here are the options that I've seen discussed (my favorite option is #3 or #4, btw):

1. We could leave AGS as-is, and port only PTS into GENESIS (user-issued asset on BTS). That way, GENESIS is essentially PTS 2.0, and we preserve the idea that AGS is the illiquid share class, PTS is the liquid one.

2. There have been at least two proposals (by Shentist and emski, I believe) to create a user-issued asset on the new BTS called GENESIS and snapshot it 50/50 AGS/PTS. Then new DACs would honor GENESIS with a 20% snapshot. I'm not crazy about combining AGS with anything like that. IMO, AGS should be left alone (disclosure: I own only 12 AGS; I'm not speaking from dishonest bias here).

3. Let PTS end, but preserve AGS. Now, 3rd-party devs would be recommended to honor 10% AGS and 10% BTS. It does still give a slight preference to pre-Feb28 donators, but only a slight one, and preserves the original intentions of AGS. It ends PTS, which simplifies the marketing message (PTS was always a weird idea, don't you think?).

4. Invictus has floated the idea that they should honor the new BTS with 20%. The rationale is that the new BTS snapshotted AGS/PTS and thus honoring BTS is like honoring AGS/PTS. The dramatic flaw in this proposal is that it gives a huge preference to pre-Feb28 AGS donators. For that reason, I strongly oppose this option because it's severely unfair to those who donated after the original BTSX snapshot.


Discuss.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Let's not forget that pre-Feb28 AGS Donators paid a huge premium.
Also destroying AGS might be a good idea, with the SEC knocking on "crypto IPO" doors

Offline cass

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 05:15:38 PM »
One of the pressing questions we face in the long-term is the issue of 3rd-party DAC developers and who they should airdrop to. Here are the options that I've seen discussed (my favorite option is #3 or #4, btw):

1. We could leave AGS as-is, and port only PTS into GENESIS (user-issued asset on BTS). That way, GENESIS is essentially PTS 2.0, and we preserve the idea that AGS is the illiquid share class, PTS is the liquid one.

2. There have been at least two proposals (by Shentist and emski, I believe) to create a user-issued asset on the new BTS called GENESIS and snapshot it 50/50 AGS/PTS. Then new DACs would honor GENESIS with a 20% snapshot. I'm not crazy about combining AGS with anything like that. IMO, AGS should be left alone (disclosure: I own only 12 AGS; I'm not speaking from dishonest bias here).

3. Let PTS end, but preserve AGS. Now, 3rd-party devs would be recommended to honor 10% AGS and 10% BTS. It does still give a slight preference to pre-Feb28 donators, but only a slight one, and preserves the original intentions of AGS. It ends PTS, which simplifies the marketing message (PTS was always a weird idea, don't you think?).

4. Invictus has floated the idea that they should honor the new BTS with 20%. The rationale is that the new BTS snapshotted AGS/PTS and thus honoring BTS is like honoring AGS/PTS. The dramatic flaw in this proposal is that it gives a huge preference to pre-Feb28 AGS donators. For that reason, I strongly oppose this option because it's severely unfair to those who donated after the original BTSX snapshot.


Discuss.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Let's not forget that pre-Feb28 AGS Donators paid a huge premium.
Also destroying AGS might be a good idea, with the SEC knocking on "crypto IPO" doors

yup and we should even keep it as simple as possible to understand ... when we start with PTS/AGS/BTS etc... then first users are gone due their lack of knowledge about AGS/PTS … maybe … just thinking loud …
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Offline CLains

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 05:22:55 PM »
I vote simplicity: 20% to BTS is complicated enough.

Personally I would gain more from 3, but this would be tremendously myopic. We need to think big! AGS is already in stone, and PTS will be soon, anyone can honor those lists - making these liquid again would just confuse everyone.

Offline bobmaloney

Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 05:25:14 PM »
I vote simplicity: 20% to BTS is complicated enough.

Personally I would gain more from 3, but this would be tremendously myopic. We need to think big! In addition, if people want to honor AGS or PTS they can do so if they want; AGS is already in stone, and PTS will be soon.

This should be the accepted standard, IMO.

20% BTS is plenty.

PTS/AGS should be viewed as something completely optional, but an extremely valuable and available tool - especially in highly competitive areas and those looking for stakeholders with a techno/libertarian ethos and bias.
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Offline Riverhead

Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 05:38:41 PM »
I vote simplicity: 20% to BTS is complicated enough.

It could be argued that the only way to buy the GENESIS asset is with BTS so it's effectively adding a wasted step. However, it could also be argued that there is opportunity cost in holding GENESIS in the hopes a great new DAC comes along to increase its value or give you a cheaper foothold in the new product.

Also, it depends how we view the social contract: Which of these better captures the spirit?
(a) Early risk takers bought into an unknown team developing an unknown product with the promise their early risk would pay dividends for years in every new product.
(b) New DAC developers will want to airdrop to GENESIS holders because they'll gain instant community support and to some extent user base.

Either way if GENESIS is liquid it's a moot point. Those that view (a) would hold and those that view (b) would sell or buy with the market.

Offline jsidhu

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 06:06:28 PM »
I have another opinion... now that ags/pts have been given BTS by dilution, you kill them off and introduce this concept: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10385.msg137696#msg137696

When a new DAC is proposed and developers need funds you DO NOT dilute BTS here, instead you raise funds by people buying shares... and those that buy shares and the DAC is successfull they will gain, and if the DAC is unsuccessful the coins are burned, thus adding some deflationary pressure to the inflationary dilution when a dac is merged.

If we offered 20% free to all BTS holders then it would be hard to get people to buy shares because they already get some for free... The BTS holders gain by the utility if and when a DAC is merged into BTS. Because we've created a superdac it negates the need for PTS/AGS and the social consensus comes in the form of a vote which chooses which proposals to allow and merge later.

That was the original intent of PTS/AGS anyway right, to raise funds for developers and give back shares? If you hold the superdac you gain via the new features being introduced. This was a onetime fund raising so that I3 was able to market the product and pay for developers to develop some new DACs but.. those funds don't help any third party developers that create new DACs so to me is a flawed business model.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 06:10:10 PM by jsidhu »
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Offline CLains

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 06:28:56 PM »
I vote simplicity: 20% to BTS is complicated enough.

It could be argued that the only way to buy the GENESIS asset is with BTS so it's effectively adding a wasted step. However, it could also be argued that there is opportunity cost in holding GENESIS in the hopes a great new DAC comes along to increase its value or give you a cheaper foothold in the new product.

Also, it depends how we view the social contract: Which of these better captures the spirit?
(a) Early risk takers bought into an unknown team developing an unknown product with the promise their early risk would pay dividends for years in every new product.
(b) New DAC developers will want to airdrop to GENESIS holders because they'll gain instant community support and to some extent user base.

Either way if GENESIS is liquid it's a moot point. Those that view (a) would hold and those that view (b) would sell or buy with the market.

BM said in mumble that he recommends the PTS/AGS 10/10% continue indefinitely, instead of honoring BitShares. If they are not liquid it would not be a way to buy in though.

Offline biophil

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2014, 06:37:21 PM »
I vote simplicity: 20% to BTS is complicated enough.

It could be argued that the only way to buy the GENESIS asset is with BTS so it's effectively adding a wasted step. However, it could also be argued that there is opportunity cost in holding GENESIS in the hopes a great new DAC comes along to increase its value or give you a cheaper foothold in the new product.

Also, it depends how we view the social contract: Which of these better captures the spirit?
(a) Early risk takers bought into an unknown team developing an unknown product with the promise their early risk would pay dividends for years in every new product.
(b) New DAC developers will want to airdrop to GENESIS holders because they'll gain instant community support and to some extent user base.

Either way if GENESIS is liquid it's a moot point. Those that view (a) would hold and those that view (b) would sell or buy with the market.

BM said in mumble that he recommends the PTS/AGS 10/10% continue indefinitely, instead of honoring BitShares. If they are not liquid it would not be a way to buy in though.

Yeah, I think if we continue with snapshots, at least one of the snapshotted assets needs to be liquid.

Offline James212

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Re: [POLL] DISCUSSION: Should 3rd-party DACs honor AGS/PTS?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 12:14:27 AM »
The Goal is to streamline our (BTS) message and market image.  They should drop 20% to BTS and "spin-off" AGS and PTS since there is so much resistance to shutting them down. 

By the way I have current investments in PTS. 

Edit: Also the "Bitshares" designator should be pulled from the names of  Bitshares PTS and Bitshares AGS products.   Additionally, third party users of the Bitshares tool kit should not be allowed to use "Bitshares" in their name ether, since BTS does not fully own them and can not control the product quality.  Instead they should be given the tag *powered by Bitshares*. 

These details are important to create the market clarity we are seeking. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 09:56:52 AM by James212 »
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