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Offline jwiz168

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Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« on: October 24, 2014, 05:48:58 PM »

Why sudden change of plan for Bitshare X after the Las Vegas trip?  Did people find btsx boring with no potentials ? It gets confusing from then on. and the fact that we already lifted . Now we are back to square one. Ready to take off (cross my finger) again with seemingly much improve and highly promising product. --> BTS . How long shall we wait for the wallet? November 5 is a little over a week to start the second genesis block for BTS. For being positive, I3 team surely can make that deadline. Now from there, we may take off and skyrocket bts to the moon with its improved features. As they say, one step backward, two steps forward.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:52:21 PM by jwiz168 »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 05:55:18 PM »
If I understood correctly the new wallet will come at the end of November.

Overall I would not expect too much super quickly but a lot in the long run (a few month to a few years).

Offline cube

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 05:59:31 PM »
If I understood correctly the new wallet will come at the end of November.

Overall I would not expect too much super quickly but a lot in the long run (a few month to a few years).

Expecting a long run with a steady rise.  BTS will get the world's notice.  :)
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Offline Ander

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 05:59:37 PM »
My take:


The dev team came away with the understanding that they have a strong need for two things:

1) The ability to raise more funds in order to launch a strong marketing campaign, in order to win and become huge.  (Need to have the potential to issue more shares)

2) The need to make the company a fully distributed company that cannot be attacked.  That is, right now I3 can come under attack from government or other entities.  However, if they are able to discard that shell and just run Bitshares as a distributed company, it is safe from attack.  That means that Bitshares needs to be able to hire employees and pay salaries to them!  Thus the need for the functionality of paid delegates! 



The final result: 
A Bitshares distributed corporation which hires employees through majority vote of shareholders, which pays them in shares of BTS at a rate approved by vote of shareholders.  A distributed corporation that is safe from outside attacks and can continue to run no matter what.  A Bitshares that has the capacity to fund itself through majority shareholder vote to launch marketing campaigns and do what it takes to win and become the #1 crypto.
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Offline Shentist

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 06:04:00 PM »
questions is. If I3 is discarded and we all fund now the devs via creation of new BTS. What will happen with the I3 funds? They are not needed now and should redistributed.

Offline Ander

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 06:07:38 PM »
questions is. If I3 is discarded and we all fund now the devs via creation of new BTS. What will happen with the I3 funds? They are not needed now and should redistributed.

Some of them are likely going to pay for current committments of $, that is, to hire employees and pay for marketing in the present, when the paid delegates for current employees arent created and elected yet.  Until everything is running very smoothly, its important that they have a cash reserve.


Once we reach the point where that is all set up, any left over money could be used to buy BTSX, essentially reducing the amount of dilution that occurred in order to pay the paid delegates.

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Offline luckybit

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 06:18:15 PM »
My take:


The dev team came away with the understanding that they have a strong need for two things:

1) The ability to raise more funds in order to launch a strong marketing campaign, in order to win and become huge.  (Need to have the potential to issue more shares)

2) The need to make the company a fully distributed company that cannot be attacked.  That is, right now I3 can come under attack from government or other entities.  However, if they are able to discard that shell and just run Bitshares as a distributed company, it is safe from attack.  That means that Bitshares needs to be able to hire employees and pay salaries to them!  Thus the need for the functionality of paid delegates! 



The final result: 
A Bitshares distributed corporation which hires employees through majority vote of shareholders, which pays them in shares of BTS at a rate approved by vote of shareholders.  A distributed corporation that is safe from outside attacks and can continue to run no matter what.  A Bitshares that has the capacity to fund itself through majority shareholder vote to launch marketing campaigns and do what it takes to win and become the #1 crypto.

The problem is that you cannot run it as a distributed company and partner with centralized companies. This is why I proposed the idea of forming a Bitshares Cooperative. Think of the Bitshares Cooperative as a possible layer on top of Bitshares SuperDAC.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.0

There isn't a way for governments, corporations, educational instutituions and non-profits to partner with the BTS SuperDAC without a Bitshares Cooperative formed legally. The network effects of BTS would be restricted to virtual unless you have a physical equivalent to BTS in the legal sense.

We need a Bitshares Cooperative and anyone who wants to discuss how to build one should comment on that thread. It's not enough to have a distributed corporation because unless that distributed corporation is globally recognized as a sovereign government entity it isn't going to have any representation in the legal world. Also it's not smart to call it a corporation when it's actually a cooperative anyway so we should move away from using the corporate metaphor and either call it a country or a cooperative.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 06:33:11 PM by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 06:23:23 PM »
My take:


The dev team came away with the understanding that they have a strong need for two things:

1) The ability to raise more funds in order to launch a strong marketing campaign, in order to win and become huge.  (Need to have the potential to issue more shares)

2) The need to make the company a fully distributed company that cannot be attacked.  That is, right now I3 can come under attack from government or other entities.  However, if they are able to discard that shell and just run Bitshares as a distributed company, it is safe from attack.  That means that Bitshares needs to be able to hire employees and pay salaries to them!  Thus the need for the functionality of paid delegates! 



The final result: 
A Bitshares distributed corporation which hires employees through majority vote of shareholders, which pays them in shares of BTS at a rate approved by vote of shareholders.  A distributed corporation that is safe from outside attacks and can continue to run no matter what.  A Bitshares that has the capacity to fund itself through majority shareholder vote to launch marketing campaigns and do what it takes to win and become the #1 crypto.

I think just hiding in cyberspace isn't way to defend your digital nation or cooperative from being attacked. The way to defend it form attack is to at the same time form legal cooperatives and NGO's. Cooperatives can give out dividends legally to all members and all who own BTSX who have verified identities could be made into members of the cooperative.

In that Cooperative you could now receive all sorts of dividends from any kind of partnership deals. If third party DACs all formed cooperatives then you could form offline legal partnerships between these cooperatives so that mutually beneficial economic relationships are formed in the real world not just in cyberspace.

I think what is missing is that bridge into the real world. If that bridge existed then we'd have nothing to fear from governments because governments could become partners too. The sooner we form a real world Bitshares cooperative the sooner we can actually make use of the network effects because just having a large network doesn't mean you have any partnerships with centralized entities.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 06:25:18 PM by luckybit »
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Offline eagleeye

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 11:58:29 PM »
My take:


The dev team came away with the understanding that they have a strong need for two things:

1) The ability to raise more funds in order to launch a strong marketing campaign, in order to win and become huge.  (Need to have the potential to issue more shares)

2) The need to make the company a fully distributed company that cannot be attacked.  That is, right now I3 can come under attack from government or other entities.  However, if they are able to discard that shell and just run Bitshares as a distributed company, it is safe from attack.  That means that Bitshares needs to be able to hire employees and pay salaries to them!  Thus the need for the functionality of paid delegates! 



The final result: 
A Bitshares distributed corporation which hires employees through majority vote of shareholders, which pays them in shares of BTS at a rate approved by vote of shareholders.  A distributed corporation that is safe from outside attacks and can continue to run no matter what.  A Bitshares that has the capacity to fund itself through majority shareholder vote to launch marketing campaigns and do what it takes to win and become the #1 crypto.

The problem is that you cannot run it as a distributed company and partner with centralized companies. This is why I proposed the idea of forming a Bitshares Cooperative. Think of the Bitshares Cooperative as a possible layer on top of Bitshares SuperDAC.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.0

There isn't a way for governments, corporations, educational instutituions and non-profits to partner with the BTS SuperDAC without a Bitshares Cooperative formed legally. The network effects of BTS would be restricted to virtual unless you have a physical equivalent to BTS in the legal sense.

We need a Bitshares Cooperative and anyone who wants to discuss how to build one should comment on that thread. It's not enough to have a distributed corporation because unless that distributed corporation is globally recognized as a sovereign government entity it isn't going to have any representation in the legal world. Also it's not smart to call it a corporation when it's actually a cooperative anyway so we should move away from using the corporate metaphor and either call it a country or a cooperative.

A multi-pronged pincer strategy of encircling the goal is what matters.

They can incorporate in the British Virgin Islands if the chose, having another avenue to set up.  Being American and BVI.  It is fine.

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Offline Thom

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 01:52:43 AM »
Why are you talking about getting in bed with government?

About the only thing I can agree with you luckybit is the need to ditch the "corporate" moniker.

I understand why you seek legality in the eyes of gov & status quo institutions, but you're barking up the wrong tree and missing the fundamentals. Government is force and it plays one group off against another. It only knows winners and losers. Lets look forward to a new perspective where we're all winners. Lets make our own rules and show everyone how we can all be winners working cooperatively, together.

Fuck the corrupt legal system, fuck the banksters! If that means our growth is slower so be it. When the heavy hand of corrupt institutions get unbearable BTS will be the safe haven the oppressed will look for. Let's be here unfettered and untainted by any rules of the status quo game when they come.
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Offline luckybit

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2014, 02:01:38 AM »
Why are you talking about getting in bed with government?

About the only thing I can agree with you luckybit is the need to ditch the "corporate" moniker.

I understand why you seek legality in the eyes of gov & status quo institutions, but you're barking up the wrong tree and missing the fundamentals. Government is force and it plays one group off against another. It only knows winners and losers. Lets look forward to a new perspective where we're all winners. Lets make our own rules and show everyone how we can all be winners working cooperatively, together.
Who are you going to market Bitshares VOTE to? It's not about getting in bed with the government, it's about having as many partners as possible so you can receive maximum rewards.

You don't have to compromise your integrity to accept funding. I do understand that you might want to keep things pure but how do you think corporations, governments, or any entity operates? They all have partnerships or they don't last long and it's really about mutually beneficial partnerships. Like it or not if you don't have any partners in government at all then you wont have any protection from hostile entities in government who don't like you for who you are or for political reasons.

Fuck the corrupt legal system, fuck the banksters! If that means our growth is slower so be it. When the heavy hand of corrupt institutions get unbearable BTS will be the safe haven the oppressed will look for. Let's be here unfettered and untainted by any rules of the status quo game when they come.

It may be corrupt but unless you think Bitshares as an ecosystem can grow a new economy and industry on Silk Road type stuff you're going to have to figure out a more open minded approach. Not every banker is evil, not every bank is trying to go against your principles, and if any bank does want to make a change and you don't offer partnership then you're forcing them to fight you to the very end.

Ideology should not get in the way of innovation or rationality. Keep your goals in mind, keep your integrity, but why turn down a mutually beneficial relationship? If a government wants to offer grants or form a partnership then honestly it should be up to the community to vote on it. It should be a case by case basis but it's probably not wise to put a line in the sand saying under no circumstances will you ever partner with any government for any reason.

The same applies to corporations, to non-profits, or anyone else. If they want to support the ecosystem and make many of us rich then you'll have to ask the community on a case by case basis whether they want that partnership or not. If there are no partnerships at all then some other community will form those partnerships instead and they'll get rich.

Consider the guiding principles and what the overall vision is. If a partnership doesn't interfere with these principles or the vision then is opposition coming from a rational basis?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 02:13:07 AM by luckybit »
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Offline Thom

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2014, 02:39:53 AM »
Consider the guiding principles and what the overall vision is. If a partnership doesn't interfere with these principles or the vision then is opposition coming from a rational basis?

You make some good points here luckybit. But my prime directive and goal is freedom, from which wealth will come, not the other way around.

And from what I know of history it's mighty tough to hold to your principles once you start to compromise them. A little grant from the gov here, favorable legislation there, and before you know it you can't say no to their requests lest you loose your shareholders.

Now that I think of it, if the majority of shareholders embrace the state and forget the very reasons crypto was invented just to make a buck I'll have to find another community that won't lose sight of that.

The whole VOTE effort with California gives me the willies. My only hope is that BM & the dev team will be very very VERY careful and insure there are rigid walls or strong options to preserve MY control over my privacy.

Maybe I am close minded about being involved (at all) with the gov, but it is just very clear how fundamentally anti freedom and violence promoting it all is, and it sickens me to be a part of that machine of evil.

Forgive my rant and harsh attitude, I'm struggling to survive with my principles in a society where the majority are statists who seek to take from me through the fiction of gov authority rather than getting to work themselves. Gov is a parasite and produces nothing but only takes from those that do.
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Offline luckybit

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2014, 03:16:37 AM »
You make some good points here luckybit. But my prime directive and goal is freedom, from which wealth will come, not the other way around.

And from what I know of history it's mighty tough to hold to your principles once you start to compromise them. A little grant from the gov here, favorable legislation there, and before you know it you can't say no to their requests lest you loose your shareholders.

Of course it's about freedom but you don't effectively increase freedom by bucking the state. Bucking the state will put all the shareholders in jail and then the state will not even learn anything about how to run a better state.

States are going to exist in some form and the debate is what form it will be. If there are people within the state who value freedom, who respect the blockchain, what it represents, and the sovereignty of it, the where is the problem? Is that not what we want? Or would you rather it get banned completely like it is in China and Russia so you can be a true rebel?

They don't have to fully understand what we do right now. They don't have to understand our principles or technology. All they have to do is not interfere with our goals and in exchange we shouldn't interfere with theirs. If a mutually beneficial partnership allows both parties to accomplish their goals together I don't see how that is irrational but it's up to the community to decide case by case which is why I favor a Bitshares Cooperative so that if a partnership does happen the community as a whole can benefit rather than just a few individual delegates.

Now that I think of it, if the majority of shareholders embrace the state and forget the very reasons crypto was invented just to make a buck I'll have to find another community that won't lose sight of that.
If a few individuals form partnerships with big corporations in the private sector and those few individuals happen to be delegates then none of those benefits would be shared with the community. If a Bitshares Cooperative forms a partnership then the entire community shares in the benefits. Which scenario would you prefer?

The whole VOTE effort with California gives me the willies. My only hope is that BM & the dev team will be very very VERY careful and insure there are rigid walls or strong options to preserve MY control over my privacy.

I don't understand why you'd be against the VOTE initiative in California. From my perspective I would want future initiates like that with the private and public sector and for the Bitshares community to benefit from them. I don't think everything government does is bad but I do think some of the ways they do things are unnecessarily violent. If you have a better way of solving a problem then perhaps it is mutually beneficial to solve the problem as a service.
Maybe I am close minded about being involved (at all) with the gov, but it is just very clear how fundamentally anti freedom and violence promoting it all is, and it sickens me to be a part of that machine of evil.
Not every action of the government is anti freedom or violence promoting but I can understand why you would think so. I myself have moments where I feel as you do about governments in general but in the end I don't think we have much of a choice because if you rebel against all governments then they could all label you a terrorist organization. It's important to at least try to play by the rules when you can accomplish your agenda while doing so.


Forgive my rant and harsh attitude, I'm struggling to survive with my principles in a society where the majority are statists who seek to take from me through the fiction of gov authority rather than getting to work themselves. Gov is a parasite and produces nothing but only takes from those that do.

I understand your principles. I think you can be very selective with these partnerships and if each partnership came up for a vote in a Bitshares Cooperative then the community could decide. I think the idea of not having any partnerships at all is very silly and short sighted. Human beings get things done through partnerships, through relationships, through deal making, and you cannot make any deal if you rule out certain individuals or entities based on ideology.

So I would say you should look at what you each have to gain by working together and weigh it against what you each have to lose not working together. If you have more to gain in the long term than you have to lose then perhaps it's in your long term self interest to work together. Relationships can be formed with anyone, who works anywhere, as long as they can help the Bitshares ecosystem it wouldn't matter if they work for the biggest bank, for the local university, for the non-profit foundation with billions in resources, it only matters what they want to bring to the table.

I can accept that we disagree on strategy here. I don't see how success is possible in this competitive environment without partnerships. If you're partnering with Overstock that is still a partnership.

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Offline Thom

Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2014, 04:28:37 AM »
I can accept that we disagree on strategy here. I don't see how success is possible in this competitive environment without partnerships. If you're partnering with Overstock that is still a partnership.

I never said I was against ALL partnerships. That would clearly be an irrational position to take, given how the entire ecosystem is designed around cooperation of shareholders, who in essence are my partners.

But I need to get some sleep. Thanks for your comments.
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Offline eagleeye

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Re: Las Vegas Effect - Bitshares Community should remember this.
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 05:20:32 AM »
I can accept that we disagree on strategy here. I don't see how success is possible in this competitive environment without partnerships. If you're partnering with Overstock that is still a partnership.

I never said I was against ALL partnerships. That would clearly be an irrational position to take, given how the entire ecosystem is designed around cooperation of shareholders, who in essence are my partners.

But I need to get some sleep. Thanks for your comments.

Thom never give up your principles if they are honorable which I think they are.  Listen to luckybits points, not all societies governments are out to get us though even though some may seem like it especially with what is going on with Islamic State wanting to kill all non-muslims in the new part of Iraq.

Luckybit great posts government is something to work with not something to ignore.  US Government/Universities/Army made the Internet, they do not all do bad.

 

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