Author Topic: The community needs a professional community management team.  (Read 10074 times)

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Offline BTSdac

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You are right.
BM  is a good programmer. That doesn't mean he is a great leader.
Stan is BM's father.  I dodn't think this realtion will help solve the problem
So stan will always support BM no matter what kind of decision he made.
I think Bm is not only a good programmer , but a man with excellence and long term strategy also
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Offline Rune

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Once this reaches VISA level you will not be able to run the delegate on a regular computer .. you will need a cluster due to
- the huge amount of incoming transactions
- the number of ECDSA verifications you need to perform on the other delegates
- the lookups in your database to figure out if a transactions is valid or not funded

you will also need a huge "bandwidth" (technical correct term would be "data rate" -- but that's another issue) .. due to
- HUGE blocks of several mega bytes .. EVERY 10 seconds
- HUGE overhead because every node you are connected to you will want to send you transactions your already know about

and probably plenty of other technical issues that will prevent a regular home computer to run a delegate ... in the long term

for now you are safe to use a cheap 10$/monthly VPS ...
how knows how soon this changes

Aside from the price, what is the practical differences for renting a cluster from the same pipelines that delivers the VPS that are currently used? Will custom optimization of the hardware be required?The price will just be subsidized by the DAC so that's not gonna be an issue.

There shouldn't be hardware customization. However I think using VPS would be bad idea. All VPS servers could be shut-down by single government request or cloud service provider policy change. In the end even if the price is subsidized by the DAC only these that maintain it efficiently will remain.

As long as delegates are expected to only use VPS providers from their own country (unless bitshares are illegal, such as russian and china), then I think we should be fine, as our trusted nodes would be spread across the entire planet. There is no One World Government that can shut down all VPS providers globally in an instant. If we observe initiatives to create a system that would allow them to crack down simultaneously on all delegates globally, then we can begin to rethink the system. However, if such a drastic attack against us happened, we can be almost 100% sure that they will also be expending significant amounts of resources on infiltrating our social and trust structures, and then the 1 human rule would again protect us significantly.

Offline emski

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Once this reaches VISA level you will not be able to run the delegate on a regular computer .. you will need a cluster due to
- the huge amount of incoming transactions
- the number of ECDSA verifications you need to perform on the other delegates
- the lookups in your database to figure out if a transactions is valid or not funded

you will also need a huge "bandwidth" (technical correct term would be "data rate" -- but that's another issue) .. due to
- HUGE blocks of several mega bytes .. EVERY 10 seconds
- HUGE overhead because every node you are connected to you will want to send you transactions your already know about

and probably plenty of other technical issues that will prevent a regular home computer to run a delegate ... in the long term

for now you are safe to use a cheap 10$/monthly VPS ...
how knows how soon this changes

Aside from the price, what is the practical differences for renting a cluster from the same pipelines that delivers the VPS that are currently used? Will custom optimization of the hardware be required?The price will just be subsidized by the DAC so that's not gonna be an issue.

There shouldn't be hardware customization. However I think using VPS would be bad idea. All VPS servers could be shut-down by single government request or cloud service provider policy change. In the end even if the price is subsidized by the DAC only these that maintain it efficiently will remain.
+5%

What if the IP is masked?  How would gov's find out?  Through the VPS provider giving info up without being asked for it?

There are numerous ways. Cloud providers can still check what you store on the servers and/or in the ram. The traffic is also visible. You need to connect to seed ports too. In the end your software is running on their hardware. They can see what you do.

Offline fuzzy

Once this reaches VISA level you will not be able to run the delegate on a regular computer .. you will need a cluster due to
- the huge amount of incoming transactions
- the number of ECDSA verifications you need to perform on the other delegates
- the lookups in your database to figure out if a transactions is valid or not funded

you will also need a huge "bandwidth" (technical correct term would be "data rate" -- but that's another issue) .. due to
- HUGE blocks of several mega bytes .. EVERY 10 seconds
- HUGE overhead because every node you are connected to you will want to send you transactions your already know about

and probably plenty of other technical issues that will prevent a regular home computer to run a delegate ... in the long term

for now you are safe to use a cheap 10$/monthly VPS ...
how knows how soon this changes

Aside from the price, what is the practical differences for renting a cluster from the same pipelines that delivers the VPS that are currently used? Will custom optimization of the hardware be required?The price will just be subsidized by the DAC so that's not gonna be an issue.

There shouldn't be hardware customization. However I think using VPS would be bad idea. All VPS servers could be shut-down by single government request or cloud service provider policy change. In the end even if the price is subsidized by the DAC only these that maintain it efficiently will remain.
+5%

What if the IP is masked?  How would gov's find out?  Through the VPS provider giving info up without being asked for it?

I think that 3I should hire Stan as a CEO!
+5%  Stan is one of my favorite human beings of all time. 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 02:20:13 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline emski

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Once this reaches VISA level you will not be able to run the delegate on a regular computer .. you will need a cluster due to
- the huge amount of incoming transactions
- the number of ECDSA verifications you need to perform on the other delegates
- the lookups in your database to figure out if a transactions is valid or not funded

you will also need a huge "bandwidth" (technical correct term would be "data rate" -- but that's another issue) .. due to
- HUGE blocks of several mega bytes .. EVERY 10 seconds
- HUGE overhead because every node you are connected to you will want to send you transactions your already know about

and probably plenty of other technical issues that will prevent a regular home computer to run a delegate ... in the long term

for now you are safe to use a cheap 10$/monthly VPS ...
how knows how soon this changes

Aside from the price, what is the practical differences for renting a cluster from the same pipelines that delivers the VPS that are currently used? Will custom optimization of the hardware be required?The price will just be subsidized by the DAC so that's not gonna be an issue.

There shouldn't be hardware customization. However I think using VPS would be bad idea. All VPS servers could be shut-down by single government request or cloud service provider policy change. In the end even if the price is subsidized by the DAC only these that maintain it efficiently will remain.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 01:10:15 pm by emski »

Offline gamey

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What you're describing is simply a technical issue. The delegate client just needs to be made easier to use. I don't think there's anything preventing a delegate client from being as easy to use as the normal client, the only difference being that it has to always run or be installed on a VPS. If binaries are used there just need to be some extra system that compares checksums of the files with numbers on the blockchain to ensure the delegate is a non-tampered exact copy.

What happens when the drive fills up, you are DDOSed, or you have to figure out why you are having network issues ?

It isn't compilation that is the hard part, it is fixing a broken machine.  Compilation is literally a list of approximately 7 steps to type in.

So it is en education thing too.  We will require people to learn to be sys-admins first according to the rules you are pushing. 

I just don't understand.

I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline Rune

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Once this reaches VISA level you will not be able to run the delegate on a regular computer .. you will need a cluster due to
- the huge amount of incoming transactions
- the number of ECDSA verifications you need to perform on the other delegates
- the lookups in your database to figure out if a transactions is valid or not funded

you will also need a huge "bandwidth" (technical correct term would be "data rate" -- but that's another issue) .. due to
- HUGE blocks of several mega bytes .. EVERY 10 seconds
- HUGE overhead because every node you are connected to you will want to send you transactions your already know about

and probably plenty of other technical issues that will prevent a regular home computer to run a delegate ... in the long term

for now you are safe to use a cheap 10$/monthly VPS ...
how knows how soon this changes

Aside from the price, what is the practical differences for renting a cluster from the same pipelines that delivers the kind of VPS's that are currently used? Will custom optimization of the hardware be required?The price will just be subsidized by the DAC so that's not gonna be an issue.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 01:27:08 pm by Rune »

Offline Gentso1

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I feel like if the community has to enforce one rule, it should be this one. If we never allow anyone the chance to build a centralized card house of trust, money or whatever - then we can be almost 100% that we will NEVER experience a bitcoinica or mtgox moment.

3 people would not be an issue. But it would make multi-delegates acceptable and encourage centralized trust/power/payment structures. We would eventually see 5 man, 10 man, 100 man delegates, or more. If we instead allow the number of delegates to grow, we can have all the trust/power/payment structures transparently on the blockchain, and the organizational efficiency of the team can continue completely unhindered, but would also allow for more autonomous, yet transparent and overseen, innovation and development by individual devs.

I don't get why this is the one rule is so important.

As Bytemaster pointed out, anyone can fake being an individual person and sub-contract people out.  So this rule is pointless in some regard and only punishes the honest !

I still don't understand.  You say trust-trust-trust!  Yet you want this extreme level of transparency for what is a crypto world that wants little third-party involvement and oversight.  The reason you have transparency is because you don't trust !  Why else have such extreme transparency ?  So are we for trust or not ???

What is your stance on making identities public ?

Why not just measure on level of value done vs amount paid.  That is how you measure value.

I absolutely believe it should be up to the individual to decide whether to be anonymous or not. The advantage of forcing the one delegate = one human rule is that anyone looking to infiltrate us would probably break that rule. While it is not trivial to detect people breaking the rule, it is still easier to look for people breaking it, than people who are simply harboring dishonest intentions that might "go off" later when they are deeper into the trust structure.

It is hard to fake real human behaviour and social interaction. I imagine scammers, criminals or intelligence agents will underestimate this difficulty because they are predominantly sociopaths.

I agree that no matter who gets the job it should be one person=one delegate. This also ensures that if it is a team of people and one person's actions will not get the entire team voted out.

Not everyone who has value will want to run their own delegate or will they have the technical skills.  It is just a flawed way of looking at things.  People can subcontract work out all the time.  Only honest people will be punished by this "rule". 

It is flawed because you are trusting people to be honest about something, when we should just look at the result created. 

It would be up to the team to get rid of the bad actor, and if the team had enough value otherwise they could likely be reelected in.  This rule is an unenforceable arbitrary rule that just hurts the ability to hire non-technical people in roles they are good at.

By your logic you want to leave it up to the team to get rid of a bad apple. By mine it should be up to the community to pick out the bad apple.

I actually sub contract out my delegate(don't worry I am not in the top 101 ;D ).  I do not have the technical skill to run a delegate myself. I think I a can help if different ways but as rune has pointed out I believe it will be made much easier to run a delegate in the future.

xeroc also makes a valid argument that the equipment required (if that level is achieved) will put running a delegate out of reach of the daily user.

I am trying to understand your side but what do we have to gain by not making a rule like this? Lets try to forget atm the rule would be mostly un-enforceable.

Offline xeroc

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Once this reaches VISA level you will not be able to run the delegate on a regular computer .. you will need a cluster due to
- the huge amount of incoming transactions
- the number of ECDSA verifications you need to perform on the other delegates
- the lookups in your database to figure out if a transactions is valid or not funded

you will also need a huge "bandwidth" (technical correct term would be "data rate" -- but that's another issue) .. due to
- HUGE blocks of several mega bytes .. EVERY 10 seconds
- HUGE overhead because every node you are connected to you will want to send you transactions your already know about

and probably plenty of other technical issues that will prevent a regular home computer to run a delegate ... in the long term

for now you are safe to use a cheap 10$/monthly VPS ...
how knows how soon this changes

Offline Rune

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I feel like if the community has to enforce one rule, it should be this one. If we never allow anyone the chance to build a centralized card house of trust, money or whatever - then we can be almost 100% that we will NEVER experience a bitcoinica or mtgox moment.

3 people would not be an issue. But it would make multi-delegates acceptable and encourage centralized trust/power/payment structures. We would eventually see 5 man, 10 man, 100 man delegates, or more. If we instead allow the number of delegates to grow, we can have all the trust/power/payment structures transparently on the blockchain, and the organizational efficiency of the team can continue completely unhindered, but would also allow for more autonomous, yet transparent and overseen, innovation and development by individual devs.

I don't get why this is the one rule is so important.

As Bytemaster pointed out, anyone can fake being an individual person and sub-contract people out.  So this rule is pointless in some regard and only punishes the honest !

I still don't understand.  You say trust-trust-trust!  Yet you want this extreme level of transparency for what is a crypto world that wants little third-party involvement and oversight.  The reason you have transparency is because you don't trust !  Why else have such extreme transparency ?  So are we for trust or not ???

What is your stance on making identities public ?

Why not just measure on level of value done vs amount paid.  That is how you measure value.

I absolutely believe it should be up to the individual to decide whether to be anonymous or not. The advantage of forcing the one delegate = one human rule is that anyone looking to infiltrate us would probably break that rule. While it is not trivial to detect people breaking the rule, it is still easier to look for people breaking it, than people who are simply harboring dishonest intentions that might "go off" later when they are deeper into the trust structure.

It is hard to fake real human behaviour and social interaction. I imagine scammers, criminals or intelligence agents will underestimate this difficulty because they are predominantly sociopaths.

I agree that no matter who gets the job it should be one person=one delegate. This also ensures that if it is a team of people and one person's actions will not get the entire team voted out.

Not everyone who has value will want to run their own delegate or will they have the technical skills.  It is just a flawed way of looking at things.  People can subcontract work out all the time.  Only honest people will be punished by this "rule". 

It is flawed because you are trusting people to be honest about something, when we should just look at the result created. 

It would be up to the team to get rid of the bad actor, and if the team had enough value otherwise they could likely be reelected in.  This rule is an unenforceable arbitrary rule that just hurts the ability to hire non-technical people in roles they are good at.

What you're describing is simply a technical issue. The delegate client just needs to be made easier to use. I don't think there's anything preventing a delegate client from being as easy to use as the normal client, the only difference being that it has to always run or be installed on a VPS. If binaries are used there just need to be some extra system that compares checksums of the files with numbers on the blockchain to ensure the delegate is a non-tampered exact copy.

Offline BTS007

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I think that 3I should hire Stan as a CEO!
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Offline gamey

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I feel like if the community has to enforce one rule, it should be this one. If we never allow anyone the chance to build a centralized card house of trust, money or whatever - then we can be almost 100% that we will NEVER experience a bitcoinica or mtgox moment.

3 people would not be an issue. But it would make multi-delegates acceptable and encourage centralized trust/power/payment structures. We would eventually see 5 man, 10 man, 100 man delegates, or more. If we instead allow the number of delegates to grow, we can have all the trust/power/payment structures transparently on the blockchain, and the organizational efficiency of the team can continue completely unhindered, but would also allow for more autonomous, yet transparent and overseen, innovation and development by individual devs.

I don't get why this is the one rule is so important.

As Bytemaster pointed out, anyone can fake being an individual person and sub-contract people out.  So this rule is pointless in some regard and only punishes the honest !

I still don't understand.  You say trust-trust-trust!  Yet you want this extreme level of transparency for what is a crypto world that wants little third-party involvement and oversight.  The reason you have transparency is because you don't trust !  Why else have such extreme transparency ?  So are we for trust or not ???

What is your stance on making identities public ?

Why not just measure on level of value done vs amount paid.  That is how you measure value.

I absolutely believe it should be up to the individual to decide whether to be anonymous or not. The advantage of forcing the one delegate = one human rule is that anyone looking to infiltrate us would probably break that rule. While it is not trivial to detect people breaking the rule, it is still easier to look for people breaking it, than people who are simply harboring dishonest intentions that might "go off" later when they are deeper into the trust structure.

It is hard to fake real human behaviour and social interaction. I imagine scammers, criminals or intelligence agents will underestimate this difficulty because they are predominantly sociopaths.

I agree that no matter who gets the job it should be one person=one delegate. This also ensures that if it is a team of people and one person's actions will not get the entire team voted out.

Not everyone who has value will want to run their own delegate or will they have the technical skills.  It is just a flawed way of looking at things.  People can subcontract work out all the time.  Only honest people will be punished by this "rule". 

It is flawed because you are trusting people to be honest about something, when we should just look at the result created. 

It would be up to the team to get rid of the bad actor, and if the team had enough value otherwise they could likely be reelected in.  This rule is an unenforceable arbitrary rule that just hurts the ability to hire non-technical people in roles they are good at. 
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline Gentso1

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Quote
I don't get why this is the one rule is so important.

As Bytemaster pointed out, anyone can fake being an individual person and sub-contract people out.  So this rule is pointless in some regard and only punishes the honest !

I still don't understand.  You say trust-trust-trust!  Yet you want this extreme level of transparency for what is a crypto world that wants little third-party involvement and oversight.  The reason you have transparency is because you don't trust !  Why else have such extreme transparency ?  So are we for trust or not ???

What is your stance on making identities public ?

Why not just measure on level of value done vs amount paid.  That is how you measure value.

I absolutely believe it should be up to the individual to decide whether to be anonymous or not. The advantage of forcing the one delegate = one human rule is that anyone looking to infiltrate us would probably break that rule. While it is not trivial to detect people breaking the rule, it is still easier to look for people breaking it, than people who are simply harboring dishonest intentions that might "go off" later when they are deeper into the trust structure.

It is hard to fake real human behaviour and social interaction. I imagine scammers, criminals or intelligence agents will underestimate this difficulty because they are predominantly sociopaths.

I don't understand how this rule keeps people from infiltrating.  People have more power as multiple delegates.

It is exceptionally easy to fake human interactions if you have an IQ above 120.  Thats the problem with this whole crypto space.  I can show you whole projects I suspect are one guy with multiple accounts that have faked whole projects dev teams.  Sociopaths understand these things better than anyone.  Thats why they are such great manipulators in general.

You are right. Maybe make it a rule with the understanding that it would be tough to enforce. Maybe with more features integrated down the road their could be some way to identify different people working on the project as delegate's. At least with a rule in place if they are found out action could be firm and swift. 

Offline Gentso1

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I feel like if the community has to enforce one rule, it should be this one. If we never allow anyone the chance to build a centralized card house of trust, money or whatever - then we can be almost 100% that we will NEVER experience a bitcoinica or mtgox moment.

3 people would not be an issue. But it would make multi-delegates acceptable and encourage centralized trust/power/payment structures. We would eventually see 5 man, 10 man, 100 man delegates, or more. If we instead allow the number of delegates to grow, we can have all the trust/power/payment structures transparently on the blockchain, and the organizational efficiency of the team can continue completely unhindered, but would also allow for more autonomous, yet transparent and overseen, innovation and development by individual devs.

I don't get why this is the one rule is so important.

As Bytemaster pointed out, anyone can fake being an individual person and sub-contract people out.  So this rule is pointless in some regard and only punishes the honest !

I still don't understand.  You say trust-trust-trust!  Yet you want this extreme level of transparency for what is a crypto world that wants little third-party involvement and oversight.  The reason you have transparency is because you don't trust !  Why else have such extreme transparency ?  So are we for trust or not ???

What is your stance on making identities public ?

Why not just measure on level of value done vs amount paid.  That is how you measure value.

I absolutely believe it should be up to the individual to decide whether to be anonymous or not. The advantage of forcing the one delegate = one human rule is that anyone looking to infiltrate us would probably break that rule. While it is not trivial to detect people breaking the rule, it is still easier to look for people breaking it, than people who are simply harboring dishonest intentions that might "go off" later when they are deeper into the trust structure.

It is hard to fake real human behaviour and social interaction. I imagine scammers, criminals or intelligence agents will underestimate this difficulty because they are predominantly sociopaths.

I agree that no matter who gets the job it should be one person=one delegate. This also ensures that if it is a team of people and one person's actions will not get the entire team voted out.

Offline gamey

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I don't get why this is the one rule is so important.

As Bytemaster pointed out, anyone can fake being an individual person and sub-contract people out.  So this rule is pointless in some regard and only punishes the honest !

I still don't understand.  You say trust-trust-trust!  Yet you want this extreme level of transparency for what is a crypto world that wants little third-party involvement and oversight.  The reason you have transparency is because you don't trust !  Why else have such extreme transparency ?  So are we for trust or not ???

What is your stance on making identities public ?

Why not just measure on level of value done vs amount paid.  That is how you measure value.

I absolutely believe it should be up to the individual to decide whether to be anonymous or not. The advantage of forcing the one delegate = one human rule is that anyone looking to infiltrate us would probably break that rule. While it is not trivial to detect people breaking the rule, it is still easier to look for people breaking it, than people who are simply harboring dishonest intentions that might "go off" later when they are deeper into the trust structure.

It is hard to fake real human behaviour and social interaction. I imagine scammers, criminals or intelligence agents will underestimate this difficulty because they are predominantly sociopaths.

I don't understand how this rule keeps people from infiltrating.  People have more power as multiple delegates.

It is exceptionally easy to fake human interactions if you have an IQ above 120.  Thats the problem with this whole crypto space.  I can show you whole projects I suspect are one guy with multiple accounts that have faked whole projects dev teams.  Sociopaths understand these things better than anyone.  Thats why they are such great manipulators in general.
I speak for myself and only myself.