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sumantso

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Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« on: November 03, 2014, 09:59:27 PM »

In the current model any kind of employee who wants to contribute and gets paid will have to take the hassle of running a delegate. They may lack the technical skills, which would make them hire somebody, or they may decide to do themself and not be very good at it. At the end, how will they be judged - their block production reliability or their task (marketing, developing etc)?

I feel the tasks should be separated. Delegates should stay exactly as now, getting a small pay and creating blocks, publishing feeds etc. We will also have employees (or whatever term sounds better) who will set a payrate as percentage of the total dilution pool. This will not only let them focus on their task and not get distracted, it will also allow the payrate to go above 100% from the current model if necessary. For example if a 2nd BM turns up, we would be certainly wise to break the bank (so to speak) and in the current model it would be difficult as ideally we would want a 1 person=1 delegate scheme.

Block production is a fundamental part of the network being maintained, so I think it should be kept simple and separate with a low barrier of entry. It would be useful in case the network has some form of crisis.

Named it proposal as that seems to be the rage these days :P

Offline matt608

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2014, 10:04:25 PM »
A thread where this is discussed:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0

Offline liondani

Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2014, 10:17:34 PM »
 +5%
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Offline Rune

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 10:06:48 AM »
I think the end compromise that will be made is that delegates can outsource their block signing to someone else. The block signer cannot control or change the reward and it is sent directly to the real delegate, but he can get paid a fixed rate for his services automatically.

Offline joele

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2014, 01:56:36 PM »
I think the end compromise that will be made is that delegates can outsource their block signing to someone else. The block signer cannot control or change the reward and it is sent directly to the real delegate, but he can get paid a fixed rate for his services automatically.
+5

Offline Frodo

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2014, 02:09:20 PM »
I think the end compromise that will be made is that delegates can outsource their block signing to someone else. The block signer cannot control or change the reward and it is sent directly to the real delegate, but he can get paid a fixed rate for his services automatically.

It would help, but stakeholders whould have still no (direct) control over who is signing blocks for the delegate, correct?
Therefore I would still be in favour of a complete separation of roles.

Offline biophil

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2014, 03:07:22 PM »
I think the end compromise that will be made is that delegates can outsource their block signing to someone else. The block signer cannot control or change the reward and it is sent directly to the real delegate, but he can get paid a fixed rate for his services automatically.

It would help, but stakeholders whould have still no (direct) control over who is signing blocks for the delegate, correct?
Therefore I would still be in favour of a complete separation of roles.

I've been thinking this too.

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Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2014, 04:27:34 PM »
We are in favor of separating block signers from delegate accounts.

A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 

We cannot have more than 101 elected positions, it simply doesn't scale.

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Offline btswildpig

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2014, 05:11:02 PM »
We are in favor of separating block signers from delegate accounts.

A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 

We cannot have more than 101 elected positions, it simply doesn't scale.

so marketer delegates don't have to know about server/vps...etc and still can be paid by a network ? That would be nice ...
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 05:15:35 PM »
A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 
That would be so +5%
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sumantso

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 05:23:25 PM »
A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 

Thats just unnecessary distraction for the delegate, who may not be the best in choosing the correct block signer. If the delegate has a skill set which would be useful, let him just do that, no need to make him seek out an able block signer and outsource.

Another advantage for separation would be that there won't be a limit of the pay or the number of employees, giving better flexibility. It also will allow for short bounty style payments, which would case quite a upheaval in the  current model as a delegate comes and leaves for a short period.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 05:34:36 PM by sumantso »

sumantso

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 05:26:09 PM »
We cannot have more than 101 elected positions, it simply doesn't scale.

It should end up in a state where in normal circumstances we don't even have to see which delegates are being voted. Their task is simple, publish blocks on time and they will be auto ranked and voted.

The employees on the other hand would be voted by us in a more hands on approach.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 05:52:27 PM »
A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 

Thats just unnecessary distraction for the delegate, who may not be the best in choosing the correct block signer. If the delegate has a skill set which would be useful, let him just do that, no need to make him seek out an able block signer and outsource.

Another advantage for separation would be that there won't be a limit of the pay or the number of employees, giving better flexibility. It also will allow for short bounty style payments, which would case quite a upheaval in the  current model as a delegate comes and leaves for a short period.

What part of we cannot have shares vote for more than 101 *THINGS* because it does not scale.  So saying that there won't be a limit on employees or pay is wrong.  We need to limit pay to prevent unbounded dilution and we need to limit funded positions because of transaction processing time and size.
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Offline matt608

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2014, 05:59:45 PM »
We cannot have more than 101 elected positions, it simply doesn't scale.

It should end up in a state where in normal circumstances we don't even have to see which delegates are being voted. Their task is simple, publish blocks on time and they will be auto ranked and voted.

The employees on the other hand would be voted by us in a more hands on approach.

Could block signers be ranked by an algorithm measuring their reliability, frequence of feed updates, frequency of version update, number of active feeds and average latency (all the fields in http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/delegates), to make it easier for voters to make their choices? 

Edit: I realise this may silly as they are ranked by their approval, but what if there was an option to 'rank by quality'?

Speaking of which, how does a voter find out if a delegate is dishonestly signing blocks?  What attacks can a block signer do to the network and what does it look like?

« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 06:05:02 PM by matt608 »

sumantso

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Re: Proposal: Keep delegates' task simple - signing blocks.
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2014, 06:10:44 PM »
A block signer can be appointed and paid by a delegate and can be fired/reassigned at any time by a delegate. 

Thats just unnecessary distraction for the delegate, who may not be the best in choosing the correct block signer. If the delegate has a skill set which would be useful, let him just do that, no need to make him seek out an able block signer and outsource.

Another advantage for separation would be that there won't be a limit of the pay or the number of employees, giving better flexibility. It also will allow for short bounty style payments, which would case quite a upheaval in the  current model as a delegate comes and leaves for a short period.

What part of we cannot have shares vote for more than 101 *THINGS* because it does not scale.  So saying that there won't be a limit on employees or pay is wrong.  We need to limit pay to prevent unbounded dilution and we need to limit funded positions because of transaction processing time and size.

I meant the limit per delegate as determined by 100% pay rate. Of course the overall cap will remain, and they will be paid as a percentage of that. This is to ensure that if a truly great contributor comes along he is suitably rewarded to work for us.

 

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