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Offline gamey

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Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« on: November 06, 2014, 02:43:12 AM »


So BitShares killed PTS/AGS by removing official support.  This means all talk of toolkit is pretty much gone.

The new official suggestion is to sharedrop to BTS.

It hasn't been made clear what BTS will have over BTSX that would be useful to the regular DAC developer.  KeyID/KeyGraph seems too specialized.  The internal market seems like to be of use, but that was already paid for by AGS donations if I understand correctly.

So what are people's thoughts on paying a developer to further the work on the "toolkit".  Either via documentation or possibly a separate fork?

It seems to me that if BTS holders really believe that thirdy party dev's should sharedrop on BTS, then this is a completely reasonable request of BTS holders.

thoughts?
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2014, 03:26:39 AM »
Will there continue be such a toolkit?
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Offline gamey

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2014, 03:32:30 AM »
Will there continue be such a toolkit?

Was there ever a toolkit ?   

I'm not being a smartass. I'm confused at your response.
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2014, 03:34:49 AM »
Will there continue be such a toolkit?

Was there ever a toolkit ?   

I'm not being a smartass. I'm confused at your response.

There was a toolkit, right? I'm asking will it continue exists.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2014, 03:37:39 AM »
So BitShares killed PTS/AGS by removing official support.  This means all talk of toolkit is pretty much gone.

The new official suggestion is to sharedrop to BTS.

If this is the case then where are the BTS sharedrop projects?

I see multiple projects looking to sharedrop to PTS/AGS and none to BTS. 


Looks to me that PTS/AGS have not been 'killed' and are alive and well.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2014, 03:38:46 AM »
Will there continue be such a toolkit?

Was there ever a toolkit ?   

I'm not being a smartass. I'm confused at your response.

There was a toolkit, right? I'm asking will it continue exists.

Correct me if I am wrong but the toolkit was always the first DAC, bitshares X.  So then DNS came around which seemed like something reasonable to fork instead, but it was never named "bitshares_toolkit".  The problem is beyond a few utilities here and there, it isn't much of a framework for creating DACs. 

I'm not complaining as I've accepted these changes etc, but if BTS expects sharedrops instead of PTS/AGS, then it seems to me they should do something to help enable third party DACs going forward.

I'm just curious what the community thinks of this line of thought.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2014, 03:42:55 AM »
So BitShares killed PTS/AGS by removing official support.  This means all talk of toolkit is pretty much gone.

The new official suggestion is to sharedrop to BTS.

If this is the case then where are the BTS sharedrop projects?

I see multiple projects looking to sharedrop to PTS/AGS and none to BTS. 


Looks to me that PTS/AGS have not been 'killed' and are alive and well.

AGS is static and will always be there.  The PTS snapshot taken today will be part of the record and always available for a sharedrop.  At some point it will be dated, but none of this means that either are "alive and well".

I don't really want to get all negative about this, I'm just trying to gauge reactions to this and your feedback is as good as any.

BTW what are the multiple projects sharedropping to AGS/PTS ?  The ones I can think about were planned before BTS.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2014, 03:47:57 AM »

BTW what are the multiple projects sharedropping to AGS/PTS ?  The ones I can think about were planned before BTS.

Both alphaBit's proposed DPoS currency and this RnadPaulCoin thing.  (In addition to earlier planned htings like PLAY).
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2014, 03:52:49 AM »
Will there continue be such a toolkit?

Was there ever a toolkit ?   

I'm not being a smartass. I'm confused at your response.

There was a toolkit, right? I'm asking will it continue exists.

Correct me if I am wrong but the toolkit was always the first DAC, bitshares X.  So then DNS came around which seemed like something reasonable to fork instead, but it was never named "bitshares_toolkit".  The problem is beyond a few utilities here and there, it isn't much of a framework for creating DACs. 

I'm not complaining as I've accepted these changes etc, but if BTS expects sharedrops instead of PTS/AGS, then it seems to me they should do something to help enable third party DACs going forward.

I'm just curious what the community thinks of this line of thought.

To some extent, there was such a codebase going to the toolkit direction. My concern is that will toolkit still be one of the target in this community.
Really hope people who want to develop DACs based on BitShares technology could continue effort on these.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2014, 03:56:12 AM »

BTW what are the multiple projects sharedropping to AGS/PTS ?  The ones I can think about were planned before BTS.

Both alphaBit's proposed DPoS currency and this RnadPaulCoin thing.  (In addition to earlier planned htings like PLAY).

Alphabar's DPOS currency is supposed to replace to PTS 1:1.  So of course it won't be sharedropping on BTS.  Reading their forum they want to gut btsx out of a lot of features and make a bare currency.  (At least I think that is their plan)

RandPaulCoin is just some random altcoin that doesn't seem to innovate much.  (Although we need some altcoins)

PLAY was decided some time ago.

It just seems to me that if BTS wants to be sharedropped on, then they need to provide more value going forward.  If the community is against that idea, then they really can't expect people to sharedrop to anything but AGS/PTS unless BTS has significantly improved what might be considered the toolkit.
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Offline oco101

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2014, 04:17:08 AM »
Will there continue be such a toolkit?

Was there ever a toolkit ?   

I'm not being a smartass. I'm confused at your response.

There was a toolkit, right? I'm asking will it continue exists.

Correct me if I am wrong but the toolkit was always the first DAC, bitshares X.  So then DNS came around which seemed like something reasonable to fork instead, but it was never named "bitshares_toolkit".  The problem is beyond a few utilities here and there, it isn't much of a framework for creating DACs. 

I'm not complaining as I've accepted these changes etc, but if BTS expects sharedrops instead of PTS/AGS, then it seems to me they should do something to help enable third party DACs going forward.

I'm just curious what the community thinks of this line of thought.

I'm not sure if this is correct . My understanding is that the toolkit has the core technology in it, so you got DPOS, you got the market, the peg mechanism,Titan,etc. Now of course  you need to modify it if you want to make a different DAC. I.E Bithshare Music although it has a completely different business model is basically BithsareX with very few changes AlphaBar PTS same think. HackerFisher could confirm if PLAY it is using the toolkit to make the DAC.  So given the fact that  it is open source and already a few DACS are using it I think we can call it the DAC framework.

Offline gamey

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 04:28:19 AM »

I'm not sure if this is correct . My understanding is that the toolkit has the core technology in it, so you got DPOS, you got the market, the peg mechanism,Titan,etc. Now of course  you need to modify it if you want to make a different DAC. I.E Bithshare Music although it has a completely different business model is basically BithsareX with very few changes AlphaBar PTS same think. HackerFisher could confirm if PLAY it is using the toolkit to make the DAC.  So given the fact that  it is open source and already a few DACS are using it I think we can call it the DAC framework.

I'm not sure either.  Forking a program and modifying it isn't really what I'd call a toolkit, but understandably Dan couldn't have terribly accurate foresight when trying to come up with a plan in the early days.

Thats the problem though, the core technology is there and I don't think much will be added to aid the toolkit itself.  I'm not sure how much documentation was ever created to enable the use of the toolkit either. So what will the BTS DAC have done to help the toolkit ?  From any of my observations, it will have done nothing if not made it worse.

Anyway, these are just thoughts of mine.  I was fairly angry when a lot of this was announced but now is not the time to be divisive.  If I was pissed off enough I would have taken my stuff and went on down the road to life's next interest.

edit - AlphaBar-PTS  seems to be about as far along as RandPaulCoin which appears to be nothing so far.  Everything else you mentioned has had explicit i3 support on some level. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 04:33:02 AM by gamey »
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Offline roadscape

Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 04:54:55 AM »
bitsharesx merged with bitshares_toolkit to create bitshares

As it stands right now, BitShares is both the DAC and the toolkit.

E.g. KeyID, forked from 'BitShares'
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Offline oco101

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Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on "bitshares toolkit" ?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2014, 05:17:32 AM »

I'm not sure if this is correct . My understanding is that the toolkit has the core technology in it, so you got DPOS, you got the market, the peg mechanism,Titan,etc. Now of course  you need to modify it if you want to make a different DAC. I.E Bithshare Music although it has a completely different business model is basically BithsareX with very few changes AlphaBar PTS same think. HackerFisher could confirm if PLAY it is using the toolkit to make the DAC.  So given the fact that  it is open source and already a few DACS are using it I think we can call it the DAC framework.

I'm not sure either.  Forking a program and modifying it isn't really what I'd call a toolkit, but understandably Dan couldn't have terribly accurate foresight when trying to come up with a plan in the early days.

Thats the problem though, the core technology is there and I don't think much will be added to aid the toolkit itself.  I'm not sure how much documentation was ever created to enable the use of the toolkit either. So what will the BTS DAC have done to help the toolkit ?  From any of my observations, it will have done nothing if not made it worse.

Anyway, these are just thoughts of mine.  I was fairly angry when a lot of this was announced but now is not the time to be divisive.  If I was pissed off enough I would have taken my stuff and went on down the road to life's next interest.

edit - AlphaBar-PTS  seems to be about as far along as RandPaulCoin which appears to be nothing so far.  Everything else you mentioned has had explicit i3 support on some level.

Maybe "toolkit"  it is not the right word and the original idea was to0 ambitious , I see it more like linux kernel, you have the core of the technology then you are free to adapt it as you want.

I agree about the documentation, big problem there, but given the fact this is still very early development, this might change if the technology is proving itself witch I think it does. The problem is adoption as long as nobody knows about it could be the best idea and stay idle forever.  It is a Catch 22 situation right now  I3 don't have the resource to do documentation,tutorial, examples etc  so therefore they need more 3 party DAC developers but for now not many could use it because not enough documentation...

True AlphaBar-PTS and  RandPaulCoin are nothing yet but the good news the intention is there. I see talking of DPOS more and more outside this forum like Zennet supercomputer they are thinking about DPOS too, so I’m hopping those are signs that the word take notice and this will help the toolkit tremendously.

Offline toast

Re: Paid delegate to aid specifically on &quot;bitshares toolkit&quot; ?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 05:21:59 AM »
To say bitshares_toolkit aka btsx is extensible or a good platform to buikd on would be incorrect.

We have good ideas for how to actually enable mass developers but that has to take a temporary back seat

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