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Offline islandking

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Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« on: November 11, 2014, 12:08:14 AM »

I heard this statement being made in the Beyond Bitcoin podcast by Bytemaster. I would like some clarification on this statement.

I disagree that we should conform to regulation, as the whole point of a decentralized blockchain is to remain decentralized. I think we need to have it setup like Bitcoin in that nobody can ever access your assets/shares/funds.

I believe that we should be completely decentralized and the company or any other entity should NEVER be allowed to seize your shares/assets under ANY circumstance.

EDIT: I misunderstood the context of what BM was trying to say.

+5% Thank you pseudoscops! You are right I misunderstood what Bytemaster was trying to get across. It makes a lot more sense now.
Thanks for clearing that up.


 
Maybe I can clear this up. I haven't re-listened before posting, but I think the OP might be misconstruing some stuff BM mentioned in the Mumble session about the use of intermediaries providing services that may spring up in the future to help people manage BTS and BitAsset accounts once BitShares is more widespread (i.e. companies that might operate atop of the BitShares blockchain. Like BitPay for BTC for instance). I'm paraphrasing but what I got from him was this (correct me if I'm wrong BM):  He said that most people, if BitShares reached mass adoption, will choose to use one of these intermediaries/companies as a matter of convenience (security, backups etc etc) and that those intermediaries will be required to 'Know Their Customers' and comply with local laws and regulations of the country in which they are based.

If you use one of these intermediaries then you potentially open your BTS balances to being seized and reallocated by the govt or state in which the intermediary is based. This sounds a bit scary, but in practice this is no different to the powers that governments already have with money held by your bank today. If the average person really thought it was a large enough threat that the government was going to unfairly steal from them then we'd already see widespread runs on banks and lots of mattresses stuffed with cash. In some parts of the world perhaps that is a real concern where distrust of the state is high enough. For most, convenience will trump the hassle of going it alone with your own cold storage wallet and and learning the associated skills required to manage one. This is how things have to play out if we are to attain widespread adoption.

So really the point BM was making is that BitShares allows you to choose. BitShares does not preclude you from going it alone and avoiding  intermediaries entirely if you want to. If you go down that route then you make it more difficult for centralized regulation/laws to 'seize' your BTS but in my view you probably open yourself up to other more real risks. For most, myself included, the threat from hackers probably registers as a higher threat than government interfering with my legitimately invested money. In my view it'll be good to have the option to use a professionally run intermediary when they become available, even if that means my BTS investments effectively sit under UK law and regulation. YMMV.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 12:57:19 AM by islandking »
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Offline Pheonike

Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2014, 12:20:22 AM »


We are not bowing down, we are trying to avaoid any unnecessary contact.  We are not trying to follow the rules, we are to avoid them. Which not the same as breaking them.

Offline gamey

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 12:22:23 AM »
I heard this statement being made in the Beyond Bitcoin podcast by Bytemaster. I would like some clarification on this statement.

I disagree that we should conform to regulation, as the whole point of a decentralized blockchain is to remain decentralized. I think we need to have it setup like Bitcoin in that nobody can ever access your assets/shares/funds.

I believe that we should be completely decentralized and the company or any other entity should NEVER be allowed to seize your shares/assets under ANY circumstance.

It seems like everyone is extremely concerned with Bitshares being 100% compliant to all the US finance laws.
I don't think bowing down to regulatory authorities is going to do Bitshares any good.

If you are going to quote 3 words out of context then it would be useful if you provided the timeframe they were said.

You can not seize anything any differently than you can with Bitcoin.  Someone can threaten you for your keys or find them unencrypted, but there is no concept of seizing that is different from BTC and others.

As far as regulations, it is all easy to say things like this when you are an anonymous person on the internet that would never have to suffer any repercussions.  Not everyone has that going for them.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 12:25:04 AM »
I dont understand the context here.

No one thinks its a good idea for anyone to be able to seize and reallocate anyone else's Bitshares.

Also, the blockchain wont let you, you need to have the private keys.


Also, thats the whole point.  Bitshares is a blockchain technology just like bitcoin.
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Offline islandking

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 12:27:30 AM »
I heard this statement being made in the Beyond Bitcoin podcast by Bytemaster. I would like some clarification on this statement.

I disagree that we should conform to regulation, as the whole point of a decentralized blockchain is to remain decentralized. I think we need to have it setup like Bitcoin in that nobody can ever access your assets/shares/funds.

I believe that we should be completely decentralized and the company or any other entity should NEVER be allowed to seize your shares/assets under ANY circumstance.

It seems like everyone is extremely concerned with Bitshares being 100% compliant to all the US finance laws.
I don't think bowing down to regulatory authorities is going to do Bitshares any good.

If you are going to quote 3 words out of context then it would be useful if you provided the timeframe they were said.

You can not seize anything any differently than you can with Bitcoin.  Someone can threaten you for your keys or find them unencrypted, but there is no concept of seizing that is different from BTC and others.

As far as regulations, it is all easy to say things like this when you are an anonymous person on the internet that would never have to suffer any repercussions.  Not everyone has that going for them.

So BTS is not trying to be compliant with US regulations? I am NOT trying to spin what Bytemasters said, I agree with him on almost everything he is doing, but I would like some clarification and some context on why this was said.

I am really concerned that it is POSSIBLE for the issuer to seize shares and reallocate them.

Maybe I heard what he said wrong. Someone please correct me if I heard this wrong and I am taking what he said out of context.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 12:29:45 AM »
I heard this statement being made in the Beyond Bitcoin podcast by Bytemaster. I would like some clarification on this statement.

I disagree that we should conform to regulation, as the whole point of a decentralized blockchain is to remain decentralized. I think we need to have it setup like Bitcoin in that nobody can ever access your assets/shares/funds.

I believe that we should be completely decentralized and the company or any other entity should NEVER be allowed to seize your shares/assets under ANY circumstance.

It seems like everyone is extremely concerned with Bitshares being 100% compliant to all the US finance laws.
I don't think bowing down to regulatory authorities is going to do Bitshares any good.

If you are going to quote 3 words out of context then it would be useful if you provided the timeframe they were said.

You can not seize anything any differently than you can with Bitcoin.  Someone can threaten you for your keys or find them unencrypted, but there is no concept of seizing that is different from BTC and others.

As far as regulations, it is all easy to say things like this when you are an anonymous person on the internet that would never have to suffer any repercussions.  Not everyone has that going for them.

So BTS is not trying to be compliant with US regulations? I am NOT trying to spin what Bytemasters said, I agree with him on almost everything he is doing, but I would like some clarification and some context on why this was said.

I am really concerned that it is POSSIBLE for the issuer to seize shares and reallocate them.

Maybe I heard what he said wrong. Someone please correct me if I heard this wrong and I am taking what he said out of context.

Please read what I posted.

Of course whatever you said is out of context since you gave 0 context except an hour of audio.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline onceuponatime

Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 12:32:02 AM »
I heard this statement being made in the Beyond Bitcoin podcast by Bytemaster. I would like some clarification on this statement.

I disagree that we should conform to regulation, as the whole point of a decentralized blockchain is to remain decentralized. I think we need to have it setup like Bitcoin in that nobody can ever access your assets/shares/funds.

I believe that we should be completely decentralized and the company or any other entity should NEVER be allowed to seize your shares/assets under ANY circumstance.

It seems like everyone is extremely concerned with Bitshares being 100% compliant to all the US finance laws.
I don't think bowing down to regulatory authorities is going to do Bitshares any good.

If you are going to quote 3 words out of context then it would be useful if you provided the timeframe they were said.

You can not seize anything any differently than you can with Bitcoin.  Someone can threaten you for your keys or find them unencrypted, but there is no concept of seizing that is different from BTC and others.

As far as regulations, it is all easy to say things like this when you are an anonymous person on the internet that would never have to suffer any repercussions.  Not everyone has that going for them.

So BTS is not trying to be compliant with US regulations? I am NOT trying to spin what Bytemasters said, I agree with him on almost everything he is doing, but I would like some clarification and some context on why this was said.

I am really concerned that it is POSSIBLE for the issuer to seize shares and reallocate them.

Maybe I heard what he said wrong. Someone please correct me if I heard this wrong and I am taking what he said out of context.

You want to give a time reference when you think you heard something that has prompted this thread? Or do you want some or us all to listen through the whole recording and see if we can find the statement that may have caused you concern?

Offline Ander

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 12:33:43 AM »

So BTS is not trying to be compliant with US regulations? I am NOT trying to spin what Bytemasters said, I agree with him on almost everything he is doing, but I would like some clarification and some context on why this was said.

They are trying to minimize their risk as much as possible.  They are trying to not pick fights with any government agencies.  They are trying to make it so those agencies cannot effectively attack them, or do not want to.  They are also trying to make it so that if the SEC does come after them for whatever reason, the worst that happens is a fine, and then they pay it and continue on with the project.

Things like no longer referring to DACs as companies is one aspect of this defense.  Things like making the blockchain be able to pay delegates so the project keeps going no matter what is another.


Quote
I am really concerned that it is POSSIBLE for the issuer to seize shares and reallocate them.

That is only possible if they hacked your computer and got your private keys.  Just like bitcoin.

Quote
Maybe I heard what he said wrong. Someone please correct me if I heard this wrong and I am taking what he said out of context.

I think you misunderstood the statement.  Bitshares is a blockchain, no-one can take anyone else's things without their private key.
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Offline islandking

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 12:36:07 AM »
Please read what I posted.

Of course whatever you said is out of context since you gave 0 context except an hour of audio.

I read your post again and I think I get what you are saying. I am starting to think that I pulled this out of context which I apologize about.
He starts talking about it at the 11 minute mark but I think I got it wrong. After listening to it again I think he was referring to that if the companies wanted to be compliant then they can keep their own record of shareholders and regulate using that.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 12:37:13 AM »

He starts talking about it at the 11 minute mark but I think I got it wrong. After listening to it again I think he was referring to that if the companies wanted to be compliant then they can keep their own record of shareholders and regulate using that.

Maybe he was talking about why we cannot call Bitshares a company?
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Offline islandking

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 12:44:09 AM »

He starts talking about it at the 11 minute mark but I think I got it wrong. After listening to it again I think he was referring to that if the companies wanted to be compliant then they can keep their own record of shareholders and regulate using that.

Maybe he was talking about why we cannot call Bitshares a company?

At 11:54 he talks about having the companies complying with the existing laws.
"Code just needs to enforce the current laws"
"Most of the benefits of crypto while being compliant"
12:17 It (the company)can seize and reallocate shares since they know the real life identity of the shareholders.
 
Although I think he is referring to the companies themselves requiring the shareholders to register with them in order to invest.
EDIT: So I think I may have jumped the gun on this one. I should have listened to it more closely.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 12:48:13 AM by islandking »
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Offline pseudoscops

Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 12:48:27 AM »
Maybe I can clear this up. I haven't re-listened before posting, but I think the OP might be misconstruing some stuff BM mentioned in the Mumble session about the use of intermediaries providing services in the future to help people manage BTS and BitAsset accounts once BitShares is more widespread (i.e. companies that might operate atop of the BitShares blockchain. Like BitPay for BTC for instance). I'm paraphrasing but what I got from him was this (correct me if I'm wrong BM):  He said that most people, if BitShares reached mass adoption, will choose to use one of these intermediaries/companies as a matter of convenience (security, backups etc etc) and that those intermediaries will be required to 'Know Their Customers' and comply with local laws and regulations of the country in which they are based.

If you use one of these intermediaries then you potentially open your BTS balances to being seized and reallocated by the govt or state in which the intermediary is based. This sounds a bit scary, but in practice this is no different to the powers that governments already have with money held by your bank today. If the average person really thought it was a large enough threat that the government was going to unfairly steal from them then we'd already see widespread runs on banks and lots of mattresses stuffed with cash. In some parts of the world perhaps that is a real concern where distrust of the state is high enough. For most, convenience will trump the hassle of going it alone with your own cold storage wallet and and learning the associated skills required to manage one. This is how things have to play out if we are to attain widespread adoption.

So really the point BM was making is that BitShares allows you to choose. BitShares does not preclude you from going it alone and avoiding  intermediaries entirely if you want to. If you go down that route then you make it more difficult for centralized regulation/laws to 'seize' your BTS but in my view you probably open yourself up to other more real risks. For most, myself included, the threat from hackers probably registers as a higher threat than government interfering with my legitimately invested money. In my view it'll be good to have the option to use a professionally run intermediary when they become available, even if that means my BTS investments effectively sit under UK law and regulation. YMMV.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 01:21:51 AM by pseudoscops »

Offline Ander

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 12:48:51 AM »
At 11:54 he talks about having the companies complying with the existing laws.
Although I think he is referring to the companies themselves requiring the shareholders to register with them in order to invest.
"Code just needs to enforce the current laws"
"Most of the benefits of crypto while being compliant"
12:17 It (the company)can seize  reallocate shares since they know the real life identity of the shareholders.

Right, thats the problem with companies.

Thats one reason why bitshares is different than a company.  This is a blockchain, no one can seize anything from someone else, the private key is what matters.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2014, 12:53:20 AM »
pseudoscops has the correct understanding of what Bytemaster was saying at that point of the mumble.

If you own bitshares on an exchange or something like that, then you do not control the private key. 

If you want absolutely safety of your bitshares, you need the private key, and you need to secure your computer system so you cannot get hacked.


There is nothing different here in bitshares that doesnt apply to bitcoin.
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Offline islandking

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin: "Seize and reallocate your shares"?!
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2014, 12:54:09 AM »
 +5% Thank you pseudoscops! You are right I misunderstood what Bytemaster was trying to get accross. That makes a lot of sense about the brokers that might try to broker BTS services for convenience as they can be taken down by regulators.

Thanks for clearing that up.


 
Maybe I can clear this up. I haven't re-listened before posting, but I think the OP might be misconstruing some stuff BM mentioned in the Mumble session about the use of intermediaries providing services that may spring up in the future to help people manage BTS and BitAsset accounts once BitShares is more widespread (i.e. companies that might operate atop of the BitShares blockchain. Like BitPay for BTC for instance). I'm paraphrasing but what I got from him was this (correct me if I'm wrong BM):  He said that most people, if BitShares reached mass adoption, will choose to use one of these intermediaries/companies as a matter of convenience (security, backups etc etc) and that those intermediaries will be required to 'Know Their Customers' and comply with local laws and regulations of the country in which they are based.

If you use one of these intermediaries then you potentially open your BTS balances to being seized and reallocated by the govt or state in which the intermediary is based. This sounds a bit scary, but in practice this is no different to the powers that governments already have with money held by your bank today. If the average person really thought it was a large enough threat that the government was going to unfairly steal from them then we'd already see widespread runs on banks and lots of mattresses stuffed with cash. In some parts of the world perhaps that is a real concern where distrust of the state is high enough. For most, convenience will trump the hassle of going it alone with your own cold storage wallet and and learning the associated skills required to manage one. This is how things have to play out if we are to attain widespread adoption.

So really the point BM was making is that BitShares allows you to choose. BitShares does not preclude you from going it alone and avoiding  intermediaries entirely if you want to. If you go down that route then you make it more difficult for centralized regulation/laws to 'seize' your BTS but in my view you probably open yourself up to other more real risks. For most, myself included, the threat from hackers probably registers as a higher threat than government interfering with my legitimately invested money. In my view it'll be good to have the option to use a professionally run intermediary when they become available, even if that means my BTS investments effectively sit under UK law and regulation. YMMV.
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

 

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