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Offline Riverhead

PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« on: November 12, 2014, 12:39:36 PM »




The recent beating HackerFish is taking over his gift to BTS is a good case in point for why a dedicated allocation token makes sense. With BTS the issue is how to handle the assets (namely their collateral) other DACs will have other issues. It's a mess.


Although this is the PTS subforum I'll create a new thread at the link below if anyone wants to discuss further.

http://pts.cubeconnex.com/index.php?topic=23.0
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 12:55:51 PM by Riverhead »

Offline fuzzy

Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 02:21:06 PM »
Thank you for moving forward with this Riverhead.  Good job man.  We need to form a coalition and I believe this is where the rubber meets the road.  We need to really dig into this...even if it hurts.
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Offline cryptillionaire

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2014, 03:20:12 PM »
I still don't get why people are wanting to keep PTS alive.. A snapshot was taken for BTS from pts/ags/vote/btsx so that the one common crypto could exist without fragmentation. The revived PTS has no purpose other than to keep PTS investors happy. Let PTS die and stop trying to split the community apart.

Offline Riverhead

Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 05:24:14 PM »
If you think the issues with BTS snapshots are complicated now just wait until things really get rolling.

Let's say BTS has a multi billion dollar market cap, a thousand UIAs, hundreds of millions of BTS locked up in collateral and cold storage, institutional investors owning large stakes in BTS, etc.

Now something like PLAY or MUSIC comes along and wants to AirDrop to an engaged crypto community. Is BTS the best answer? I think it'd be an absolute nightmare.

Offline cryptillionaire

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2014, 07:21:01 PM »
If you think the issues with BTS snapshots are complicated now just wait until things really get rolling.

Let's say BTS has a multi billion dollar market cap, a thousand UIAs, hundreds of millions of BTS locked up in collateral and cold storage, institutional investors owning large stakes in BTS, etc.

Now something like PLAY or MUSIC comes along and wants to AirDrop to an engaged crypto community. Is BTS the best answer? I think it'd be an absolute nightmare.
So litterally the only purpose of the new PTS is to act as a crypto that can be snapshotted?
Well.. so can any other crypto (excluding BTS). And are you stating that BTS will not be used for snapshots on behalf of the BTS community? Will my previous PTS not be merged into BTS now? What on earth are you pulling here?!

Offline Riverhead

Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2014, 07:27:29 PM »
If you think the issues with BTS snapshots are complicated now just wait until things really get rolling.

Let's say BTS has a multi billion dollar market cap, a thousand UIAs, hundreds of millions of BTS locked up in collateral and cold storage, institutional investors owning large stakes in BTS, etc.

Now something like PLAY or MUSIC comes along and wants to AirDrop to an engaged crypto community. Is BTS the best answer? I think it'd be an absolute nightmare.
So litterally the only purpose of the new PTS is to act as a crypto that can be snapshotted?
Well.. so can any other crypto (excluding BTS). And are you stating that BTS will not be used for snapshots on behalf of the BTS community? Will my previous PTS not be merged into BTS now? What on earth are you pulling here?!

BTS AirDropping on your PTS has nothing to do with PTS continuing on as an AirDrop target. You still get all the BTS coming to you as a result of the AirDrop. Much like you'll get all the Sparkle (assuming you didn't dump after the BTS AirDrop).

What people need to understand is that a Crypto Token can't be killed by fiat, only abandoned by its community, or burned. If someone wanted to fire up the old BTSX code and get that going it'd work just fine providing they had enough delegates and coins to keep the delegates voted in. As a community we decided that we'll support BTS and no longer support BTSX and it faded to black.

A good number of the community dumped PTS after the BTS AirDrop on PTS/DNS/VOTE/BTSX but not everyone. The term "Merger" has done more to confuse the issue. If this was a true merger all the PTS tokens would have had to be mined, bought, and burned in exchange for BTS tokens.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 07:32:15 PM by Riverhead »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2014, 10:58:38 PM »
If you think the issues with BTS snapshots are complicated now just wait until things really get rolling.

Let's say BTS has a multi billion dollar market cap, a thousand UIAs, hundreds of millions of BTS locked up in collateral and cold storage, institutional investors owning large stakes in BTS, etc.

Now something like PLAY or MUSIC comes along and wants to AirDrop to an engaged crypto community. Is BTS the best answer? I think it'd be an absolute nightmare.
So litterally the only purpose of the new PTS is to act as a crypto that can be snapshotted?
Well.. so can any other crypto (excluding BTS). And are you stating that BTS will not be used for snapshots on behalf of the BTS community? Will my previous PTS not be merged into BTS now? What on earth are you pulling here?!

Sharedropping has a lot to do with your target demographic. PTS will continue to operate as a sharedrop instrument according to the social consensus. Furthermore, PTS is the first coin having the following properties: (1) deflationary DPoS token ideally suited for use as a currency-DAC, (2) ideal sharedrop instrument due to 100% PoW distribution and no premine or allocation tampering, (3) reference implementation of the Bitshares Toolkit (easy-to fork, 3rd party DAC community support, DAC-agnostic features such as "import by signed msg" which was recently shipped, etc.).

Offline donkeypong

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2014, 11:03:54 PM »
We already had the snapshot drop to end all snapshots, but now we have the walking zombie PTS as well. What we need is a new Social Consensus. A BTS drop is most important, since that represents most of the community now, but it could also include the new PTS as well as AGS to balance that. Hey, maybe you'd throw MUSIC and PLAY drops in there too! Anyone want to commission a poll?

sumantso

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 10:09:45 AM »
We already had the snapshot drop to end all snapshots, but now we have the walking zombie PTS as well. What we need is a new Social Consensus. A BTS drop is most important, since that represents most of the community now, but it could also include the new PTS as well as AGS to balance that. Hey, maybe you'd throw MUSIC and PLAY drops in there too! Anyone want to commission a poll?

I had this suggestion

I was going to suggest that. Both AGS and PTSers represent the sharedrop group which follow BTS. Unifying them gives a wider representation and makes it tempting for future developers to sharedrop on.

I would even extend it to make it 30-40% PTS, 30-40% AGS and distribute the remaining among other 2.0 projects like NXT, XCP, NEM etc. The NEM shareholder list in particular is quite interesting as it covers most of the Bitcointalk group.

In this way we make it easy for any developer to have an easy sharedrop target. I would even go ahead and ditch the 20% and ask for 'only' 10% to fulfill the social consensus. The idea is to make this as attractive as possible as a sharedrop target and would benefit us all in the long run.

Of course, alphabar and co. doesn't want to consider anything else, they seem to think that projects are just lining up to sharedrop on PTS. In anycase, IMO DPoS PTS defied the social consensus and have no right to try and preach others about that.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 02:58:25 PM »
We already had the snapshot drop to end all snapshots, but now we have the walking zombie PTS as well. What we need is a new Social Consensus. A BTS drop is most important, since that represents most of the community now, but it could also include the new PTS as well as AGS to balance that. Hey, maybe you'd throw MUSIC and PLAY drops in there too! Anyone want to commission a poll?

I had this suggestion

I was going to suggest that. Both AGS and PTSers represent the sharedrop group which follow BTS. Unifying them gives a wider representation and makes it tempting for future developers to sharedrop on.

I would even extend it to make it 30-40% PTS, 30-40% AGS and distribute the remaining among other 2.0 projects like NXT, XCP, NEM etc. The NEM shareholder list in particular is quite interesting as it covers most of the Bitcointalk group.

In this way we make it easy for any developer to have an easy sharedrop target. I would even go ahead and ditch the 20% and ask for 'only' 10% to fulfill the social consensus. The idea is to make this as attractive as possible as a sharedrop target and would benefit us all in the long run.

Of course, alphabar and co. doesn't want to consider anything else, they seem to think that projects are just lining up to sharedrop on PTS. In anycase, IMO DPoS PTS defied the social consensus and have no right to try and preach others about that.

This is just plain wrong - you are latching on to some obsolete information. First you claim that PTS should simply be absorbed by BTS and die (which would be a clear violation of the social consensus), then you point the finger at us for violating the social consensus (!). Early on Dan did initially propose that the merged BTS may "absorb" PTS, but this was simply a proposal. We see proposals every day in this forum. Can we simply label one of them as fact and pretend that it must be so?

As for your claim that we should sharedrop to AGS, this was discussed at length. PTS is not a "new DAC" - it is simply an upgrade to the existing PTS chain with no modification to the allocation. Messing with the allocation would be a violation of the social consensus as it would skew the sharedrop percentages of future DACs and would pollute the separate but overlapping demographics of each sharedrop instrument (PTS and AGS). And just to hammer the point, the AGS holders who donated to the AGS fund with PTS were refunded all of their AGS and are in a position to profit more than any single group.

sumantso

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 03:13:54 PM »
First you claim that PTS should simply be absorbed by BTS and die (which would be a clear violation of the social consensus), then you point the finger at us for violating the social consensus (!). Early on Dan did initially propose that the merged BTS may "absorb" PTS, but this was simply a proposal. We see proposals every day in this forum. Can we simply label one of them as fact and pretend that it must be so?

Did I ask PTS to die? Maybe (I don't recall, tbh), but as you said opinions change.

Messing with the allocation would be a violation of the social consensus as it would skew the sharedrop percentages of future DACs and would pollute the separate but overlapping demographics of each sharedrop instrument (PTS and AGS).

As suggested by Fuzzy and others, could've just made it 50/50. Both were supposed to be sharedrop targets for I3 and projects using the toolkit. Unifying them made more sense.

And just to hammer the point, the AGS holders who donated to the AGS fund with PTS were refunded all of their AGS and are in a position to profit more than any single group.

Easily solved by alloting only to BTC AGS. Could've even made it 50% PTS/30% AGS/ 20% others (NXT, XCP, NEM, BTS etc...)

sumantso

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 03:18:46 PM »
then you point the finger at us for violating the social consensus (!).

I believe you did, you clearly feel you didn't. As BM says, free market decision is what counts - you will be lobbying with projects to sharedrop on your Alphabar PTS, I will be badgering them not to, lets see what happens.

You had the chance to create the perfect sharedrop vehicle (IMHO, of course), and you didn't take it.

Offline biophil

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2014, 03:21:43 PM »
We already had the snapshot drop to end all snapshots, but now we have the walking zombie PTS as well. What we need is a new Social Consensus. A BTS drop is most important, since that represents most of the community now, but it could also include the new PTS as well as AGS to balance that. Hey, maybe you'd throw MUSIC and PLAY drops in there too! Anyone want to commission a poll?

I had this suggestion

I was going to suggest that. Both AGS and PTSers represent the sharedrop group which follow BTS. Unifying them gives a wider representation and makes it tempting for future developers to sharedrop on.

I would even extend it to make it 30-40% PTS, 30-40% AGS and distribute the remaining among other 2.0 projects like NXT, XCP, NEM etc. The NEM shareholder list in particular is quite interesting as it covers most of the Bitcointalk group.

In this way we make it easy for any developer to have an easy sharedrop target. I would even go ahead and ditch the 20% and ask for 'only' 10% to fulfill the social consensus. The idea is to make this as attractive as possible as a sharedrop target and would benefit us all in the long run.

Of course, alphabar and co. doesn't want to consider anything else, they seem to think that projects are just lining up to sharedrop on PTS. In anycase, IMO DPoS PTS defied the social consensus and have no right to try and preach others about that.

Sumantso, I have a lot of respect for you as a long-standing forum member, but I wish you'd stop going on about this supposed "violation." It seems like your rejection of the concept of an upgrade is just for the sake of being pedantic. What if the markets accept DPOS PTS as an upgrade (I.e., old PoW stops trading and DPOS replaces it)? Would you finally accept that the DPOS PTS project was no more a "new DAC" than a simple hard fork would be?

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Offline Riverhead

Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2014, 03:32:55 PM »

The upgrade got the nod from Bytemaster, Stan, Toast, Testz, and a number of other community members. That's good enough for me. The detractors are people I respect and value as members of the community but well meaning people can, and often do, disagree without resolution.

Offline cryptillionaire

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Re: PTS vs BTS Snappshotting
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 07:13:45 PM »
Sounds like the rebirth of PTS is a bunch of fucking criminals trying to pull off a scam.
Jog on, PTS is dead.

 

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