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Offline CoinHoarder

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Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« on: November 14, 2014, 03:37:25 PM »

We need to figure out a way to provide incentive for shareholders to vote. The biggest issue I see is with 13.06% of the money supply, someone could perform a 51% attack. This is obviously much less ideal than 51% of the money supply. There are a lot of other issues pertaining to voter apathy as well. No offense to those that have tried organizing these things, but I'm not talking about some silly "election week", campaigning, or mumble hangouts. People need incentive to vote or else they never will. We need to figure out a way that shareholders can be paid to vote. IE. a percentage of fees.. a percentage of dilution.. a little extra dilution.. a delegate... somehow, some way... people need incentive to vote. The current system is not working, the delegate with the most votes has 13.06%. How is this OK with everyone??!?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 03:39:46 PM by CoinHoarder »
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Offline nomoreheroes7

Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 03:44:44 PM »
I think the biggest problem is -- voting is confusing. I'm fairly technically inclined, but I still have difficulty understanding just what the hell the client's talking about when it says "you are not voting with all of your stake"...

Needs to be better streamlined.

Offline hpenvy

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 03:46:15 PM »
I think the biggest problem is -- voting is confusing. I'm fairly technically inclined, but I still have difficulty understanding just what the hell the client's talking about when it says "you are not voting with all of your stake"...

Needs to be better streamlined.

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Offline Stan

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 03:48:55 PM »
We need to figure out a way to provide incentive for shareholders to vote. The biggest issue I see is with 13.06% of the money supply, someone could perform a 51% attack. This is obviously much less ideal than 51% of the money supply. There are a lot of other issues pertaining to voter apathy as well. No offense to those that have tried organizing these things, but I'm not talking about some silly "election week", campaigning, or mumble hangouts. People need incentive to vote or else they never will. We need to figure out a way that shareholders can be paid to vote. IE. a percentage of fees.. a percentage of dilution.. a little extra dilution.. a delegate... somehow, some way... people need incentive to vote. The current system is not working, the delegate with the most votes has 13.06%. How is this OK with everyone??!?

We could automagically set all the unused votes to random delegates (essentially raising the noise floor).
This is essentially what you would get anyway if you artificially motivate people to vote who don't care enough to study their options.
Now we have 100% voter "turnout".  Are we any better off?

 :)
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 03:50:19 PM »
I think the biggest problem is -- voting is confusing. I'm fairly technically inclined, but I still have difficulty understanding just what the hell the client's talking about when it says "you are not voting with all of your stake"...

Needs to be better streamlined.

I doubt this fixes the issue. If 86.94% of the community doesn't realize there is voting involved with DPoS or doesn't know how to do it, then I have just lost faith in humanity and this community. I refuse to believe that is the answer. To me the only reason can be that it is not worth someone's time to redeem their genesis stake and/or vote for delegates because there is no incentive in doing so.
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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 03:52:00 PM »
We need to figure out a way to provide incentive for shareholders to vote. The biggest issue I see is with 13.06% of the money supply, someone could perform a 51% attack. This is obviously much less ideal than 51% of the money supply. There are a lot of other issues pertaining to voter apathy as well. No offense to those that have tried organizing these things, but I'm not talking about some silly "election week", campaigning, or mumble hangouts. People need incentive to vote or else they never will. We need to figure out a way that shareholders can be paid to vote. IE. a percentage of fees.. a percentage of dilution.. a little extra dilution.. a delegate... somehow, some way... people need incentive to vote. The current system is not working, the delegate with the most votes has 13.06%. How is this OK with everyone??!?

We could automagically set all the unused votes to random delegates (essentially raising the noise floor).
This is essentially what you would get anyway if you artificially motivate people to vote who don't care enough to study their options.
Now we have 100% voter "turnout".  Are we any better off?

 :)
I'd suggest half of unused votes to be assigned to delegates sorted by performance AND 3% max pay.

Offline hpenvy

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 04:01:02 PM »
- Make it idiot proof
- Create a simple video explaining the need and tips on how to evaluate delegates
- Push out through twitter/newsletter

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 04:02:23 PM »
I'd suggest half of unused votes to be assigned to delegates sorted by performance AND 3% max pay.
That would raise the barrier for entry in the top 101 .. maybe too difficult to market a 100% payrate delegate (in the beginning)
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Offline chryspano

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 04:05:38 PM »
It's more than a month(maybe two) since the last time I opened my wallet, I can't even remember what version I have installed.

I would like to update my votes more often but I'm lazy compiling every time a new version is out.

When we have a "final" and more stable version I think people will show more interest.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 04:06:49 PM »
Do NOT allocate votes to random candidates unless there's some basic screening. So far, some delegates have been piss poor about doing their jobs well. They need to be screened somehow for performance, and then those that have met certain measures (such as implementing updates and producing blocks: pretty basic stuff) can have all the random votes. I'd agree with this if there were some basic screening. 

I also would make the voting feature very, very obvious, impossible to miss, in the GUI. Because CoinHoarder is right; this will not work well if the voting is as apathetic as it has been...or as hard to figure out.

Offline Stan

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2014, 04:07:16 PM »
We need to figure out a way to provide incentive for shareholders to vote. The biggest issue I see is with 13.06% of the money supply, someone could perform a 51% attack. This is obviously much less ideal than 51% of the money supply. There are a lot of other issues pertaining to voter apathy as well. No offense to those that have tried organizing these things, but I'm not talking about some silly "election week", campaigning, or mumble hangouts. People need incentive to vote or else they never will. We need to figure out a way that shareholders can be paid to vote. IE. a percentage of fees.. a percentage of dilution.. a little extra dilution.. a delegate... somehow, some way... people need incentive to vote. The current system is not working, the delegate with the most votes has 13.06%. How is this OK with everyone??!?

We could automagically set all the unused votes to random delegates (essentially raising the noise floor).
This is essentially what you would get anyway if you artificially motivate people to vote who don't care enough to study their options.
Now we have 100% voter "turnout".  Are we any better off?

 :)
I'd suggest half of unused votes to be assigned to delegates sorted by performance AND 3% max pay.

I guess we could have tiers of apathy:

1.  The least a person can do is express trust in the source of their wallet, by merely downloading it.  So that wallet can point to a default slate which expresses their preference to just trust the wallet provider they already have trusted with their private keys.
2.  The next least a person can do is express trust in some other slate, by overriding their wallet's default slate and pointing to one provided by some celebrity or developer or personality you trust.
3.  The next, next, least a person can do is override some entries in their hero-provided slate with a few delegates you happen to know.
4.  The last level of least you can do is to become fully informed and hand-pick your top 101.

In the event of a crisis, a rebel leader can publish a slate and campaign to get everyone to switch slates.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline CoinHoarder

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2014, 04:13:45 PM »
We could automatically set all the unused votes to random delegates (essentially raising the noise floor).
This is essentially what you would get anyway if you artificially motivate people to vote who don't care enough to study their options.
Now we have 100% voter "turnout".  Are we any better off?

 :)

Maybe something along these lines would work, but the way you proposed it I feel like there is something wrong... I can't quite put my finger on it but I feel there must be some issue. Since the unused votes vastly outweigh the use votes, it would override the will of the people that actually took time to analyze delegates and voted.

Emski's tweak seems a little better but the same problem still exists. Core developers with >3% pay could get voted out. Also it can possibly open up attack vectors. If it's a numbers game where delegates are selected at random then someone could create a large number of delegates, which gives them a much larger chance of being selected and do something nefarious such as collude with the price feeds and trade for a profit.
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Offline CoinHoarder

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2014, 04:16:01 PM »
I guess we could have tiers of apathy:

1.  The least a person can do is express trust in the source of their wallet, by merely downloading it.  So that wallet can point to a default slate which expresses their preference to just trust the wallet provider they already have trusted with their private keys.
2.  The next least a person can do is express trust in some other slate, by overriding their wallet's default slate and pointing to one provided by some celebrity or developer or personality you trust.
3.  The next, next, least a person can do is override some entries in their hero-provided slate with a few delegates you happen to know.
4.  The last level of least you can do is to become fully informed and hand-pick your top 101.

In the event of a crisis, a rebel leader can publish a slate and campaign to get everyone to switch slates.

Other than paying people to vote, this seems like the best solution so far. I actually really like this "tier of apathy" idea. You made my laugh irl... "the least a person can do... the next... the next, next... the next, next, next"  :D
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 04:18:07 PM by CoinHoarder »
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Offline kokojie

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Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2014, 04:21:19 PM »
My first suggestion would be refund the transaction fee for voting, so there is no "dis-incentive" to vote. Or if that's impossible, just pay a small fee every 30 days or so, for stakes that has voted at least 51 delegates.

Offline Gentso1

Re: Voter Apathy - We need to provide incentive for people to vote
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2014, 04:26:04 PM »
At a min we need to make it easier to vote.  I don't view voter apathy as a bad thing in all cases. It is too hard to figure out how to vote. The thumbs up thumbs down would be great if it worked. I don't like the fact that I must select 101 different people in order for my vote to be counted. Why can I go through and thumb up a single delegate and the gui takes and votes my stake. Or I select 10 or 20 delegates with a check mark system and click vote stake and be done?

 

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