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Offline gamey

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Loss aversion discussion.
« on: November 18, 2014, 07:56:57 AM »

Ok so there is tendency of people to react in a manner that is related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion .. (whether you notice it empirically or read some sociology studies) .. This is a very well understood cognitive bias.

The problem here is that people are by nature horrible at determining what they are losing versus what they are gaining because of subconcious cognitive biases.  This comes into play when voting for a diluting delegate.

Background -
I was never against the dilution idea, but also not 100% for it.  One thing that is for certain is once we crossed that line we need to take full advantage of it.  At this point vote in anyone who has shown a positive volunteerism.  These people without  a doubt producing value.

Result
So please please consider your cognitive biases and try your best to weight out the pros and cons.  If we make 50% mistakes voting people in, but the other 50% are really solid members of the chain gang - then BTS wins immensely.


Peronally
Please try to understand the value equation and do not be scared of inflation at this point.  The people motivated to run at this point are all solid supporters of BTS.

Please comment.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 08:08:09 PM by gamey »
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Offline btswildpig

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2014, 08:04:00 AM »
Oh , do Bitcoin talk about their "inflation" ?

The delegate pay is proof of work ! Get rid of the word inflation 。。。。
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline gamey

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2014, 08:10:14 AM »
Oh , do Bitcoin talk about their "inflation" ?

The delegate pay is proof of work ! Get rid of the word inflation 。。。。

I'm not sure.  It isn't about word usage.  If I used 'inflation' somewhere then I should have used dilution.  That is not the point at all though.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2014, 08:13:14 AM »

Someone posted a little story.. I forget what book of wise tales it came from but it went something like this.

An old greedy man was drowning in a lake.

Villagers said "Give me your hand" as they tried to reach him.  He kept drowning.

Wise man walks up and says "Take my hand". The greedy man grabbed the wise man's hand and was saved.
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Offline btswildpig

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2014, 08:13:46 AM »
Oh , do Bitcoin talk about their "inflation" ?

The delegate pay is proof of work ! Get rid of the word inflation 。。。。

I'm not sure.  It isn't about word usage.  If I used 'inflation' somewhere then I should have used dilution.  That is not the point at all though.

well , inflation or dilution is just a result .... not the means ...... just like Bitcoin is about mining but not inflation , inflation is just the result from mining .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 08:52:29 AM »
@gamey: in otherwords ... give everyone a chance!!

+5% +5% !!

the delegate pay is minimal in comparison to the overall valuation of BTS!! so IMHO gamey is right and we can cope with some bad actors. Once identified they will be voted out (reminds me of GHash.io and their "playing some gambling sites with doublespends)

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Offline pseudoscops

Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 10:07:45 AM »
I agree that gamey's sentiments are correct, even if subconscious I'm sure we all want to be a little more certain of our actions before committing to pay a 100% delegate.

I've gone into my wallet a few times to pick out who I should vote for. I've perhaps voted for a handful of 100% delegates but know I should vote for more.

A big part of the problem is that I haven't got a clue who half of them are and I don't have the time to trawl through the forums figuring out who they are. Worse some well know characters do not have obvious or descriptive delegate names, I'm embarrassed to say I don't even know which delegate is Bytemsater's since I don't think he uses that as his handle and so I have not yet voted for him.

I know that cass is working with some others to produce a delegate directory. I think that will help, but there needs to be an easy way to connect to that directory or to some other delegate marketing page from within the wallet. Would it be possible for people registering as a delegate to have a marketing link field associated with their profile that actually shows up and links out from the wallet? I know this is a little bit of extra bloat on the codebase, but I think it's needed. Delegates can use that field to paste in a URL that goes to somewhere that tells us about who they are and what they are going to do.

Longer term when the delegate directory is up some may choose to link directly there, others may decide to keep their own separate page/site that will describe and report on what they have done for the community.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:09:21 AM by pseudoscops »

Offline svk

Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 10:15:29 AM »
I agree that gamey's sentiments are correct, even if subconscious I'm sure we all want to be a little more certain of our actions before committing to pay a 100% delegate.

I've gone into my wallet a few times to pick out who I should vote for. I've perhaps voted for a handful of 100% delegates but know I should vote for more.

A big part of the problem is that I haven't got a clue who half of them are and I don't have the time to trawl through the forums figuring out who they are. Worse some well know characters do not have obvious or descriptive delegate names, I'm embarrassed to say I don't even know which delegate is Bytemsater's since I don't think he uses that as his handle and so I have not yet voted for him.

I know that cass is working with some others to produce a delegate directory. I think that will help, but there needs to be an easy way to connect to that directory or to some other delegate marketing page from within the wallet. Would it be possible for people registering as a delegate to have a marketing link field associated with their profile that actually shows up and links out from the wallet? I know this is a little bit of extra bloat on the codebase, but I think it's needed. Delegates can use that field to paste in a URL that goes to somewhere that tells us about who they are and what they are going to do.

Longer term when the delegate directory is up some may choose to link directly there, others may decide to keep their own separate page/site that will describe and report on what they have done for the community.

It's already possible to include a link in your delegate's public data field, which will be displayed in the client. On my site I pick up "public_data.guidata.website" as well as just "public_data.website", but so far I think I'm the only one who's actually defined that info in my delegate profile.

I agree that too many delegates don't explicit names that show who they are, it's especially true for Chinese delegates I think but there are many examples on the English speaking side too. BM doesn't yet have a delegate though as far as I know which is why you haven't voted for him ;)
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 10:34:03 AM »
I agree that gamey's sentiments are correct, even if subconscious I'm sure we all want to be a little more certain of our actions before committing to pay a 100% delegate.

I've gone into my wallet a few times to pick out who I should vote for. I've perhaps voted for a handful of 100% delegates but know I should vote for more.

A big part of the problem is that I haven't got a clue who half of them are and I don't have the time to trawl through the forums figuring out who they are. Worse some well know characters do not have obvious or descriptive delegate names, I'm embarrassed to say I don't even know which delegate is Bytemsater's since I don't think he uses that as his handle and so I have not yet voted for him.

I know that cass is working with some others to produce a delegate directory. I think that will help, but there needs to be an easy way to connect to that directory or to some other delegate marketing page from within the wallet. Would it be possible for people registering as a delegate to have a marketing link field associated with their profile that actually shows up and links out from the wallet? I know this is a little bit of extra bloat on the codebase, but I think it's needed. Delegates can use that field to paste in a URL that goes to somewhere that tells us about who they are and what they are going to do.

Longer term when the delegate directory is up some may choose to link directly there, others may decide to keep their own separate page/site that will describe and report on what they have done for the community.

It's already possible to include a link in your delegate's public data field, which will be displayed in the client. On my site I pick up "public_data.guidata.website" as well as just "public_data.website", but so far I think I'm the only one who's actually defined that info in my delegate profile.

I agree that too many delegates don't explicit names that show who they are, it's especially true for Chinese delegates I think but there are many examples on the English speaking side too. BM doesn't yet have a delegate though as far as I know which is why you haven't voted for him ;)
Can we come up with a standard set of attributes besides website?
Let's create a wikipage and find some consensus (read: standard) way to publish data in the public field .. please ..

edit: I like this: https://wiki.namecoin.info/index.php?title=Identity
Let's copyfork it!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:35:51 AM by xeroc »
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Offline CLains

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2014, 10:44:02 AM »
We should require of High Octane Delegates that they have a proper, detailed proposal that includes what they will do and how they will do it.  If we don't have people spending at least a few solid days on crafting their plan we are doing a bad job of attracting good Delegates not a bad job of voting people in.

Offline pseudoscops

Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2014, 11:16:51 AM »
We should require of High Octane Delegates that they have a proper, detailed proposal that includes what they will do and how they will do it.  If we don't have people spending at least a few solid days on crafting their plan we are doing a bad job of attracting good Delegates not a bad job of voting people in.

This  +5% +5%

It's already possible to include a link in your delegate's public data field, which will be displayed in the client.

I think that this is the most important practical things that could be done to encourage voting. Though I just checked and I can't see anything in your delegate profile within the wallet for dev.bitsharesblocks. Is this data actually exposed in the wallet GUI yet? If note it needs to be if we want to increase the number of people voting. I think it needs to be on the the index page, so I don't have to click in and out of profiles, and made obvious that it's an external link. I think bootstrap is being used in the GUI and so I'd suggest an 'i' (http://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/tryit.asp?filename=trybs_ref_glyph_info-sign) in the second column between rank and name or alternatively incorporate it in to the name column. Perhaps it could be combined with this icon to make it clear it's a link (http://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/tryit.asp?filename=trybs_ref_glyph_link)

@svk - On a separate note I was confused for a moment as to which delegate I should vote for when trying to support BitsharesBlocks. I looked up svk first and saw I wasn't voting and that your delegates were only 3%, then I realised that I'd already voted for your new 100% delegate last week.  Should I even vote for your 3% delegates anymore or are they legacy delegates? If there was an obvious 'i' button I guess I could click on it and find out exactly what I should be doing as you would spell it all out for me there (i.e. what the various delegates were for along with your manifesto). I'm guessing  that we have an issue with legacy delegates and that this issue will get resolved over time (i.e. there'll become a way for owners of delegates to mark them as dormant so that they don't show up and clutter the voting UI in the wallet).

Finally the favorite button (i.e. the star) inside each delegate profile does not appear to do anything when I click on it within the wallet built from source when running on Xubuntu 14.04. Does it work for anyone else?

Offline svk

Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 11:39:32 AM »
We should require of High Octane Delegates that they have a proper, detailed proposal that includes what they will do and how they will do it.  If we don't have people spending at least a few solid days on crafting their plan we are doing a bad job of attracting good Delegates not a bad job of voting people in.

This  +5% +5%

It's already possible to include a link in your delegate's public data field, which will be displayed in the client.

I think that this is the most important practical things that could be done to encourage voting. Though I just checked and I can't see anything in your delegate profile within the wallet for dev.bitsharesblocks. Is this data actually exposed in the wallet GUI yet? If note it needs to be if we want to increase the number of people voting. I think it needs to be on the the index page, so I don't have to click in and out of profiles, and made obvious that it's an external link. I think bootstrap is being used in the GUI and so I'd suggest an 'i' (http://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/tryit.asp?filename=trybs_ref_glyph_info-sign) in the second column between rank and name or alternatively incorporate it in to the name column. Perhaps it could be combined with this icon to make it clear it's a link (http://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/tryit.asp?filename=trybs_ref_glyph_link)

@svk - On a separate note I was confused for a moment as to which delegate I should vote for when trying to support BitsharesBlocks. I looked up svk first and saw I wasn't voting and that your delegates were only 3%, then I realised that I'd already voted for your new 100% delegate last week.  Should I even vote for your 3% delegates anymore or are they legacy delegates? If there was an obvious 'i' button I guess I could click on it and find out exactly what I should be doing as you would spell it all out for me there (i.e. what the various delegates were for along with your manifesto). I'm guessing  that we have an issue with legacy delegates and that this issue will get resolved over time (i.e. there'll become a way for owners of delegates to mark them as dormant so that they don't show up and clutter the voting UI in the wallet).

Finally the favorite button (i.e. the star) inside each delegate profile does not appear to do anything when I click on it within the wallet built from source when running on Xubuntu 14.04. Does it work for anyone else?

I think the wallet only uses the guidata field and I didn't set that, I'll do so later.

About my delegates, only vote for the new one please, the old *.svk31 delegates will be decommissioned as soon as they're out of the top 101, which will be when Bytemaster removes his votes for them.

@xeroc if we can get a consensus on what fields should be exposed in the client I can add them to the wallet and make a pull request for that.

Version and gui_data.website are already there. I'd like to see the user's forum handle as well, and maybe a link to their delegate bid post.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 11:44:43 AM by svk »
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Offline xeroc

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Offline gamey

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Re: Loss aversion and how it will be our downfall. Please read.
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 03:59:20 PM »
We should require of High Octane Delegates that they have a proper, detailed proposal that includes what they will do and how they will do it.  If we don't have people spending at least a few solid days on crafting their plan we are doing a bad job of attracting good Delegates not a bad job of voting people in.

These 2 are very intertwined.  You won't attract good delegates if they find the odds of being voted in too high or have to wait that much longer.

Your statement is a good representative of the type of thinking to avoid at this time.  Do people really go and spend days on an interview?  You are too cognitively biased that someone is going to pull one over on you when the damage they can possibly do is soooo minor.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 04:06:06 PM by gamey »
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