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Offline edilliam

FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« on: November 23, 2014, 03:06:11 PM »

Just came a across this: https://qointum.com/

It says it is going to be using Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake... I'm just starting to read through the technical stuff now. Thoughts?


Offline edilliam

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 03:27:34 PM »
I don't think it's anything yet, first release isn't due until Fall 2015 according to the roadmap: https://wiki.qointum.com/roadmap/

Looks like he's promising lots and trying to raise funds to deliver...

Offline edilliam

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 03:46:03 PM »
TLDR:

  • "Cutting-edge cryptographic algorithms that are designed to be secure against quantum computers"
  • "Instant transaction confirmation by means of a consensus heuristic based on delegate voting"
  • Smart contracts stuff in python
  • Main stuff in C++
  • Consensus algorithm: "Maximally Vetted Delegate Chain that permits Simplified Payment Verification (SPV)"
  • 1 billion coins (19.9% going to the devs)
  • Stealth addresses
  • Pruned blockchain

Looks like it's a proposed mix between us and Ethereum with some buzzwords thrown in...

Offline toast

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 03:48:37 PM »
I am suspicious of python smart contracts. If you're taking that approach lua or JS would be seem infinitely better.

This sounds cool though:  "Maximally Vetted Delegate Chain that permits Simplified Payment Verification (SPV)".

Are they honoring AGS/PTS?

Maybe we should bring them into a developer mumble? Fuzz?
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Offline edilliam

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 03:57:54 PM »
No mention of BitShares at all in the tech stuff so I doubt they'll be honoring AGS/PTS.

Quote from one dev in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857509.0;all:

Quote
There is some mathematical evidence that the encryption system we're using is in fact quantum-resistant, so we only need enough bits in the key to thwart a quantum search (Grover's algorithm). Also, we use merkle hash trees for signatures, and although there is no proof yet, there are no known quantum algorithms that can attack hashes other than a quantum search. To brute force a 256-bit hash would usually take 2256 operations, but Grover's algorithm only takes O(√N) time, so that's 2256/2 = 2128 quantum operations = 128-bit level quantum security.

He is referring to this paper: http://www.santafe.edu/media/workingpapers/11-06-021.pdf

Yeah, would be interesting to talk to him.

Offline luckybit

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 05:09:00 PM »
I am suspicious of python smart contracts. If you're taking that approach lua or JS would be seem infinitely better.

This sounds cool though:  "Maximally Vetted Delegate Chain that permits Simplified Payment Verification (SPV)".

Are they honoring AGS/PTS?

Maybe we should bring them into a developer mumble? Fuzz?

I actually disagree. I think Python is better for smart contracts because of readability. You could make a case that perhaps more people know Javascript but Javascript is infinitely more complicated syntax than Python which for smart contracts would not be desirable.

It's fair for debate but I hope with Bitshares we go with many different scripting languages including Python so developers can choose what they prefer.

I think DPoS is the new standard in terms of technology. There are many ways which you can improve on or modify certain aspects of the model for different communities but the core aspects are the best in their class. DPoS is the most democratic and efficient way of providing security and while I can think of different ways to do voting (I prefer direct democracy instead of delegated) and we can have debates over which scripting language, the overall model is the same.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 05:11:36 PM by luckybit »
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Offline toast

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 05:12:59 PM »
I am suspicious of python smart contracts. If you're taking that approach lua or JS would be seem infinitely better.

This sounds cool though:  "Maximally Vetted Delegate Chain that permits Simplified Payment Verification (SPV)".

Are they honoring AGS/PTS?

Maybe we should bring them into a developer mumble? Fuzz?

I actually disagree. I think Python is better for smart contracts because of readability. You could make a case that perhaps more people know Javascript but Javascript is infinitely more complicated syntax than Python which for smart contracts would not be desirable.

It's fair for debate but I hope with Bitshares we go with many different scripting languages including Python so developers can choose what they prefer.

In any case you would probably have 10 different languages that can compile to it so you can read whichever is most pleasing. But this way if I understand correctly they're putting a python runtime into every full node, which you have to re-start very frequently.
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Offline gamey

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Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2014, 07:24:11 PM »


Have quantum computers really become a viable threat to crypto or is that 99% marketing hype ?
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline vikram

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2014, 07:53:31 PM »


Have quantum computers really become a viable threat to crypto or is that 99% marketing hype ?

Meaningless hype.

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Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2014, 08:52:18 PM »
Javascript is nice because it's simple enough that many languages can compile down to it - Dart, Cofffeescript, Ocaml etc. Also it enables the functionality to be entirely embedded in a thin client/web wallet. Otherwise, a simple VM would be good. There's already lightweight VM in the bitshares tree, but I don't think it's connected to do anything.

Offline evok3d

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Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 03:30:15 PM »
You guys are the only community so far who have discussed this paper and platform :)

I will be speaking with the author and covering the finding in an article. Do you have any questions to forward that would be nice to include in the article (with your permission of course).

I find it very interesting indeed, though the preventative measures put into place in the case of a Quantum based attack seem rather superfluous. Should we approach such a stage, there are many bigger security issues to worry about than a cryptocurrency algorithm. I believe the other aspects are good in that it natively supports multiple chains and rewards those who have been delegated in helping the stake holders. The issue there is i am not sure whether decentralization is effected by such a move. Will it give stake holders or the systems delegated more power?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Offline xeroc

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Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 05:48:32 PM »


Have quantum computers really become a viable threat to crypto or is that 99% marketing hype ?

Meaningless hype.
If it was we could implement Lamport Signatures instead of ECC (at the cost of single address use and longer pubkeys)
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Offline edilliam

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 06:44:30 PM »
You guys are the only community so far who have discussed this paper and platform :)

I will be speaking with the author and covering the finding in an article. Do you have any questions to forward that would be nice to include in the article (with your permission of course).

I find it very interesting indeed, though the preventative measures put into place in the case of a Quantum based attack seem rather superfluous. Should we approach such a stage, there are many bigger security issues to worry about than a cryptocurrency algorithm. I believe the other aspects are good in that it natively supports multiple chains and rewards those who have been delegated in helping the stake holders. The issue there is i am not sure whether decentralization is effected by such a move. Will it give stake holders or the systems delegated more power?

Any comments would be appreciated.

I can't speak for the whole community, only myself. But, I would be interested to know more about QDPOS in relation to our DPOS. Is it a fork of us, or a completely new implementation? It looks quite different to me. But, DPOS already involves queuing in the sense that our delegates are assigned an order in a queue to sign blocks so it's an odd name choice imo.

QDPOS looks to have a very large amount of possible delegates, DPOS has 101 delegates. Too small a number of delegates and the system risks centralization, to large a number and the delegates will not be earning enough that they would be incentivized to compete against each other for these few positions so that they can then use the earned funds to pay for improvements to the system and community. Is this the point? Do the devs plan on continuing to develop their coin themselves rather than opening it up to the wisdom of crowds in an open source manner like BitShares?

Why the move away from a democratic stake based system of voting in the delegates to positions? The great thing with DPOS is that bad actors will be voted out quickly and likely not reinstated. If everybody can be a delegate in QDPOS as long as they have the minimum stake requirements won't this make it a lot cheaper to disrupt the network compared to DPOS?

How does the system scale? How many transactions a second are possible?

Offline edilliam

Re: FYI: Queued Delegated Proof-of-Stake coin: Qointum
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 06:54:02 PM »
They sure got some nice neon coin logo images, I'd vote for them if they just made us some graphix:

I can make us something similar with the BitShares logo on if you want. I can go one further and make a video of them all falling into a big pile too. The work will probably take me a day or two, but the render, even on my VFX rig, could be as much as a week.

 

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