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Offline Rune

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BitBazaar concept
« on: December 11, 2014, 01:00:45 PM »

It's clear from BM's posts that he has ambitious plans for a BTS native bazaar system with improved features that allows it to actually be useful for ordinary people and have a UX similar to eBay.

We already know it will have no volatility due to bitassets, and that escrow will be very convenient to use since it will be inbuilt in the bitshares protocol.

There have also been some posts by BM revealing one of the killer features: hosted merchant nodes. This is probably the most important feature because most merchants will not want to deal with hosting their own node, and secure hosting services will allow anyone to quickly set up a shop simply by paying some fees.

What other features do you think a bitshares powered bitbazaar will have?

I think it would be interesting to jot down the concept of this future system, then take it to the open bazaar forums and see what they think of it and see if we can hire some of the talent from there to help us build it.

Offline monsterer

Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2014, 02:24:17 PM »
The biggest problem for a fully crypto ebay is that it will suffer from the opposite problem that ebay does. Ebay suffers from rouge buyers, who receive the item and then complain that they didn't. Ebay always sides with the buyer since there are more of them and reverses the charges.

Since there are no reversible charges in crypto, a crypto ebay will suffer from rouge sellers, who wont ship the item, but will take payment.

The only possible way of resolving this is to have a trusted physical distribution center which sellers post their items to, the center then confirms the item, forwards it on and acts as escrow for the payment as well.

This is fantastically difficult and expensive to do in practice.

What we need is way to get as close to this as possible with the least amount of pain.
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Offline Rune

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2014, 02:30:00 PM »
The biggest problem for a fully crypto ebay is that it will suffer from the opposite problem that ebay does. Ebay suffers from rouge buyers, who receive the item and then complain that they didn't. Ebay always sides with the buyer since there are more of them and reverses the charges.

Since there are no reversible charges in crypto, a crypto ebay will suffer from rouge sellers, who wont ship the item, but will take payment.

The only possible way of resolving this is to have a trusted physical distribution center which sellers post their items to, the center then confirms the item, forwards it on and acts as escrow for the payment as well.

This is fantastically difficult and expensive to do in practice.

What we need is way to get as close to this as possible with the least amount of pain.

True, and this is already a big problem on some of the black markets without proper escrow.

I hope the BTS escrow system combined with a reliable, scalable way to determine  trustworthiness will solve this.

Offline toast

Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2014, 02:30:38 PM »
The biggest problem for a fully crypto ebay is that it will suffer from the opposite problem that ebay does. Ebay suffers from rouge buyers, who receive the item and then complain that they didn't. Ebay always sides with the buyer since there are more of them and reverses the charges.

Since there are no reversible charges in crypto, a crypto ebay will suffer from rouge sellers, who wont ship the item, but will take payment.

The only possible way of resolving this is to have a trusted physical distribution center which sellers post their items to, the center then confirms the item, forwards it on and acts as escrow for the payment as well.

This is fantastically difficult and expensive to do in practice.

What we need is way to get as close to this as possible with the least amount of pain.

That's what escrow is for. Seems to work for online black markets, they're fine with using the anonymous site owner as the escrow because you're trusting their system with a lot anyway. In our case you would trust a mutually agreed-upon third party.
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Offline monsterer

Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2014, 02:32:31 PM »
That's what escrow is for. Seems to work for online black markets, they're fine with using the anonymous site owner as the escrow because you're trusting their system with a lot anyway. In our case you would trust a mutually agreed-upon third party.

They physically take delivery of the item? If not, how does it work?
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Offline Rune

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2014, 02:45:42 PM »
That's what escrow is for. Seems to work for online black markets, they're fine with using the anonymous site owner as the escrow because you're trusting their system with a lot anyway. In our case you would trust a mutually agreed-upon third party.

They physically take delivery of the item? If not, how does it work?

Buyers don't release the funds until they have taken delivery of the items. In case they never release the funds, the seller will open a dispute with the escrow agent (the black market operator). If the buyer never receives the item they will open up a dispute and try to get the money back from the escrow agent.

There's still plenty of seller fraud though, especially because it's normal for many sellers to demand early release for international sales. So there are instances of merchants building up a good reputation, then screwing over a lot of buyers simultaneously before disappearing. It should be possible to engineer a web of trust in such a way that this will never make sense economically though, because trust is very valuable asset. It just needs to be tracked reliably.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2014, 02:47:54 PM »
Coindesk had an interesting article on a company called bitmarkets.

Their escrow is pretty interesting since it only involves 2 people.

"Bitmarkets' escrow system could make it more attractive to users, however. OpenBazaar's is different in that it works with three parties consisting of the buyer, seller and a trusted third-party. Funds can only be released if two of those three parties sign off on a multi-signature account.

Bit markets cuts all the fat out of a transaction, relying solely on the buyer and seller. Sellers have to 'lock' in funds equal to the price of the item being sold. Buyers do the same, but lock double the amount. The locked funds are held in escrow in their Bitmarkets wallets. When a transaction is completed smoothly, the locked amounts are released and the seller is paid."

http://www.coindesk.com/bitmarkets-launches-decentralised-bitcoin-marketplace-tor-support/

Offline xeroc

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 02:48:33 PM »
It should be difficult to establish trust in easy to lose .. much like pow .. difficult to find nounce yet easy to verify
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Offline cass

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2014, 03:18:08 PM »
Coindesk had an interesting article on a company called bitmarkets.

Their escrow is pretty interesting since it only involves 2 people.

"Bitmarkets' escrow system could make it more attractive to users, however. OpenBazaar's is different in that it works with three parties consisting of the buyer, seller and a trusted third-party. Funds can only be released if two of those three parties sign off on a multi-signature account.

Bit markets cuts all the fat out of a transaction, relying solely on the buyer and seller. Sellers have to 'lock' in funds equal to the price of the item being sold. Buyers do the same, but lock double the amount. The locked funds are held in escrow in their Bitmarkets wallets. When a transaction is completed smoothly, the locked amounts are released and the seller is paid."

http://www.coindesk.com/bitmarkets-launches-decentralised-bitcoin-marketplace-tor-support/

interesting apps ... and good design ... maybe worth to contact them about possible coops ?

http://voluntary.net/
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Offline Rune

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2014, 03:58:34 PM »
Coindesk had an interesting article on a company called bitmarkets.

Their escrow is pretty interesting since it only involves 2 people.

"Bitmarkets' escrow system could make it more attractive to users, however. OpenBazaar's is different in that it works with three parties consisting of the buyer, seller and a trusted third-party. Funds can only be released if two of those three parties sign off on a multi-signature account.

Bit markets cuts all the fat out of a transaction, relying solely on the buyer and seller. Sellers have to 'lock' in funds equal to the price of the item being sold. Buyers do the same, but lock double the amount. The locked funds are held in escrow in their Bitmarkets wallets. When a transaction is completed smoothly, the locked amounts are released and the seller is paid."

http://www.coindesk.com/bitmarkets-launches-decentralised-bitcoin-marketplace-tor-support/

interesting apps ... and good design ... maybe worth to contact them about possible coops ?

http://voluntary.net/

I'm writing them a fan mail right now, explaining bitshares and giving them my support should they decide to become bitshares delegates. I think it makes perfect sense for us to simply get their team on as delegates and then use their platform as the basis for the bitbazaar. Their platform even has a bitshares branded name already! ;)

Offline Gentso1

Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2014, 04:05:29 PM »
Its probably a good idea to get in touch and at least make contact with as many of these companies as possible. Its so early in the ebay-crypto race their is no telling which market will emerge as a leader or if their will be more then one.

I have also heard BM's talks of integrating a market but with a limited dev team that has more then enough work I wonder if it would make more sense to focus on partnering with one of the above or all the above companies instead of starting our own movement.

Offline matt608

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2014, 04:21:19 PM »
The more popular a site like this is the better the reputation systems work.

Durability against shutdown, lttle/no downtime + fast loading speeds would help increase transactions and therefore opportunities to build reputation, or scam, cutting the wheat from the chaff.

At the moment you hardly get any ordinary businesses on these kinds of market places but if one was set up that actually functioned as smoothly as ebay but without the fees, then it could bring in far more users.

e.g.  online advertising.  Having advertisers + content creators matched, like Google adsense or Izea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyitfcJhRXA, but with much lower fees.  If the currency used had to be bitUSD that could being enough income to be allow virtually no fees.  The only fee is - risk using bitUSD.  There could be an online advertising section, someone could put up advertising space for sale on their blog.  Advertisers buy it.

Another market would be the buying/selling of websites, like flippa, but on bitzaaar.   

The site just needs to be reliable enough for people to trust it with other types of goods.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 04:47:51 PM by matt608 »

Offline cob

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2014, 07:57:17 PM »
The biggest problem for a fully crypto ebay is that it will suffer from the opposite problem that ebay does. Ebay suffers from rouge buyers, who receive the item and then complain that they didn't. Ebay always sides with the buyer since there are more of them and reverses the charges.

Since there are no reversible charges in crypto, a crypto ebay will suffer from rouge sellers, who wont ship the item, but will take payment.

Would Gateways help with this? Let's say the platform functions with the UIA "crypto_ebay_USD_IOU" it can do chargebacks in those situations correct?
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Offline xeroc

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2014, 09:20:47 PM »
The biggest problem for a fully crypto ebay is that it will suffer from the opposite problem that ebay does. Ebay suffers from rouge buyers, who receive the item and then complain that they didn't. Ebay always sides with the buyer since there are more of them and reverses the charges.

Since there are no reversible charges in crypto, a crypto ebay will suffer from rouge sellers, who wont ship the item, but will take payment.

Would Gateways help with this? Let's say the platform functions with the UIA "crypto_ebay_USD_IOU" it can do chargebacks in those situations correct?
That's the plan for more sofisticated UIAs .. however .. if you cannot trade them freely on the decentralized exchange you gain nothing against ebay/paypal
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: BitBazaar concept
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 02:32:47 AM »
I have contacted bitmarkets.  They said that they would be willing to do a fork so that their bitmarkets program works with bitshares.

The want to charge $200/hour as a consulting fee... I mentioned applying for a delegate job but they don't seem interested.

Does this seem like something that we would want to do???

This is their website: Voluntary.net and  http://cofactorsoftware.com

 

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