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merockstar

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I love the idea of paid delegates.

But I see potential for so many positions.

and I only see 100 (101?) delegate positions.

I worry that if we end up employing too many delegates, there won't be any delegates left to just burn bts.

if we don't burn bts, what incentive will investors have to hold it once bts has reached its peak market cap?

i feel like there's a gap in my understanding here. can somebody fill it in?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 06:31:38 PM by merockstar »

Offline santaclause102

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2014, 05:18:42 PM »
A paid delegate should only be voted in if he is considered to grow market cap more than what he costs. Market cap growth through the value the paid delegate adds to BTS here is equal to burning BTS in effect.

merockstar

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2014, 05:31:49 PM »
A paid delegate should only be voted in if he is considered to grow market cap more than what he costs. Market cap growth through the value the paid delegate adds to BTS here is equal to burning BTS in effect.

I figure though, once the market cap is high enough, growth won't impact the price as much, if at all. BTS will have bitcoin style stability through adoption, no?

Offline Riverhead

Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 05:40:42 PM »
Any none 100% delegate is burning. I highly doubt we'll ever see 101 100% delegates. Also delegates will shift from being individuals to being institutions in one shape or another that can hire many people.

merockstar

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 05:42:16 PM »
Any none 100% delegate is burning. I highly doubt we'll ever see 101 100% delegates. Also delegates will shift from being individuals to being institutions in one shape or another that can hire many people.


interesting. so they'll make up for it by contributing to the greater good by making jobs.

i still worry though. I feel like there should be a (shareholder approved) cap on the number of paid delegates. no more than 25% or 50% or something.

Offline Riverhead

Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2014, 05:43:24 PM »
There is intrinsically by nature of how delegates get elected.

merockstar

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 05:45:07 PM »
There is intrinsically by nature of how delegates get elected.

how do you make a poll thread? do you need special privileges or something?

edit: nm found it.

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 05:46:29 PM »
The key to what you're saying is "once BTS has reached its peak market cap."  If it were to lose all growth potential, and we were still paying delegates in excess of burnt fees, then it would be unprofitable to hold BTS.  I don't think we'll reach its full growth potential for quite some time though.  While it's growing in value faster than the growth of total supply, investors have incentive to hold it even as the supply increases, because share price is still increasing.

Reaching peak market cap would mean basically that it's no longer able to create new value.  If the delegates are doing their jobs, BitShares should adapt as necessary to avoid that ever happening, though growth should slow once it reaches market saturation.

Offline Riverhead

Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 05:46:34 PM »
I'm not sure. I just meant that if the shareholders think there are enough paid delegates it will be very hard for one to get elected. An implied cap.

merockstar

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2014, 05:51:51 PM »
The key to what you're saying is "once BTS has reached its peak market cap."  If it were to lose all growth potential, and we were still paying delegates in excess of burnt fees, then it would be unprofitable to hold BTS.  I don't think we'll reach its full growth potential for quite some time though.  While it's growing in value faster than the growth of total supply, investors have incentive to hold it even as the supply increases, because share price is still increasing.

Reaching peak market cap would mean basically that it's no longer able to create new value.  If the delegates are doing their jobs, BitShares should adapt as necessary to avoid that ever happening, though growth should slow once it reaches market saturation.

yes, I'm talking way, way down the road.

even if we continue to add new services, once the market is saturated with enough bts, well... everybody owns their share of bts pretty much. even as new services get added in, right?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12251.0

edit: also, how many of these new services will crop up as independent DACs?

Offline liondani

Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 06:26:17 PM »
It makes perfect sense to consider a proposal from the past....
Payrate defined by the delegate place related to the votes...
so place 101 get 1 BTS  per block to place 1 that get 100 BTS  per block....  so the total average BTS per block will be  50 BTS per block (the max "dilution" we support already)... The difference is that it is "absolute" fair   because the most rewards goes to the delegates with the most votes!  And we are winning valuable time and resources...  In this way we will not experience in the future the situation   that we have elected overpaid delegates and we must vote them out to reelect them with a different name and pay rate (it doesn't make sense for both party's ) ...   We just change our votes...

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merockstar

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Re: more paid delegates = less bts burned?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2014, 06:30:33 PM »
It makes perfect sense to consider a proposal from the past....
Payrate defined by the delegate place related to the votes...
so place 101 get 1 BTS  per block to place 1 that get 100 BTS  per block....  so the total average BTS per block will be  50 BTS per block (the max "dilution" we support already)... The difference is that it is "absolute" fair   because the most rewards goes to the delegates with the most votes!  And we are winning valuable time and resources...  In this way we will not experience in the future the situation   that we have elected overpaid delegates and we must vote them out to reelect them with a different name and pay rate (it doesn't make sense for both party's ) ...   We just change our votes...

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

I like this proposal alot. but it just changes the question from how many paid to delegates to how many paid delegates are being voted for.

eventually social consensus will decide either how many paid delegates there will be, or how many votes can be expended on paid delegates before not enough bts is being burned.

I guess I want this thread to be a discussion of whether or not the value of bts can grow after a certain point without deflation.

Offline eagleeye

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Re: after a certain point, can the value of bts grow without deflation?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 06:56:34 AM »
When the network gets bigger (higher BTS value) and there are more transactions we will have stronger computers running the system, we may be able to increase the amount of delegates to 201 or 1001 if it were possible and efficient but this may or may not be needed.

Offline xeroc

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Re: after a certain point, can the value of bts grow without deflation?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 07:17:19 AM »
things will become very interesting once we reach $1B+ market cap .. and 100% pay delegates earn enough money for mulitple positions
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Offline eagleeye

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Re: after a certain point, can the value of bts grow without deflation?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 07:42:55 AM »
things will become very interesting once we reach $1B+ market cap .. and 100% pay delegates earn enough money for mulitple positions

xeroc, with people like you will probably will reach it, I have utmost confidence but it is still an "if"

 

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