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Offline ripplexiaoshan

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How to increase the value of Devshares
« on: December 20, 2014, 04:36:08 AM »

We know Devshares is born to be used as testing network of BTS, therefore it has great value. However, valuable things don't necessarily have price. You don't need to hold large stake of devshares to use the devshares client, not to mention that BTS will have all the functions of Devshares. 

The consequence is that no one would like to hold much devshares. Gradually, the income of delegates or testers will be fewer and fewer, the whole system will not be sustainable.

We have to think about how to give DVS some real value. In other words, how to convince people to hold DVS, instead of selling all of them?  To make DVS sustainable, testing DVS should be profitable, instead of voluntary, if DVS was designed to be open to the whole community. 

Any thoughts?   
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 09:40:34 AM by cass »
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Offline fluxer555

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2014, 04:49:58 AM »
I agree with this, but I'm not sure how this could be accomplished...


Offline fluxer555

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2014, 05:17:49 AM »
Actually... This might be a little controversial, but what about this:

DevShareholders get dividends in BTS per DVS block, redeemable by cross-chain transaction signing.

This would inflate BTS more. It would basically be BTS paying DevShareholders to keep the network alive. We already have the first blockchain to hire an individual, but how about a blockchain hiring a blockchain?

The rate of inflation-pay could be determined by shareholder vote, weighted by stake. The maximum could be 50 BTS per DVS block (100% payrate). Examples of how this weighting would work:

10% of BTS stake votes for DVS holders to get 25 BTS per block (50%)
10% of BTS stake votes for DVS holders to get 30 BTS per block (60%)
80% do not vote, or vote for 0 BTS per block (0%)

RESULT: The average of all voting stake is 5.5 BTS per block (11%)

This equals 1425600 BTS per month, distributed to all DVS holders. I'm not sure what the supply of DVS is, but assuming a 2 billion supply, this means 0.0007128 BTS in dividends per DVS per month. This isn't much, but it would give breadth to DevShares' value, and thus their utility as collateral for bitAssets.

The above figures are just examples, and the the community may be totally off in terms of what the market will manifest.

Keep in mind: even though this inflates BTS, since all BTS holders have DevShares, the distribution would not change very much for anyone who has the same stake as they did on the 14th.

Offline bytemaster

Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2014, 06:03:29 AM »
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares.   Easy. 
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Offline ebit

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2014, 06:12:58 AM »
 :D

Offline fluxer555

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 04:47:53 PM »
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares.   Easy. 

That wouldn't be very much... but if we do go that route, it would be even better if the delegate used all their pay to purchase DVS, AND they burned all the DVS after purchasing. This would be a direct transfer of value into DVS, rather than a zero-sum operation. If the delegate does not burn the DVS, then the 'dump potential' grows and grows the more they buy.

Offline matt608

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 05:30:05 PM »
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares.   Easy.

If BTS subsidises the test chain it should be 100% BTS sharedrop, not paying even more to PTS+AGS from BTS.

Offline btswildpig

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2014, 03:46:01 PM »
A delegate could use all of their pay to buy dev shares.   Easy.

say what ?

Set up a BTS delegate to use their pay buy devshares ? Am I mistaken ?


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Offline Ander

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2014, 04:09:33 PM »
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.
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Offline davidpbrown

Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2014, 04:26:00 PM »
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.

Unless I'm mistaken, any delegate not claiming 100% is burning the difference. So, I don't see it's controversial to put that difference for certain delegates into DVS.

I wonder if all the BTS not claimed by a delegate could automatically be thrown at DVS.. expecting that must make sense relative to the balance of transactions and the fees miners accept. That would then keep DVS floating at a point relative to BTS and the delegate average payrate. Given that most delegates are only getting 3%, that should be quite a lift to the value of DVS. That would give an incentive to those of us hosting devshares clients.. but perhaps that would be too much?.. Perhaps then 20% of what is not claimed by BTS delegates??
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:28:13 PM by davidpbrown »
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Offline iHashFury

Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2014, 04:27:53 PM »
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.

 +5%
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Offline Ander

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2014, 04:33:27 PM »
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.

Unless I'm mistaken, any delegate not claiming 100% is burning the difference. So, I don't see it's controversial to put that difference for certain delegates into DVS.

I wonder if all the BTS not claimed by a delegate could automatically be thrown at DVS.. expecting that must make sense relative to the balance of transactions and the fees miners accept. That would then keep DVS floating at a point relative to BTS and the delegate average payrate. Given that most delegates are only getting 3%, that should be quite a lift to the value of DVS. That would give an incentive to those of us hosting devshares clients.. but perhaps that would be too much?.. Perhaps then 20% of what is not claimed by BTS delegates??

Basically you are saying that we should inflate BTS more, sell the BTS on the market, resulting in thousnads of BTS per day, per delegate that does this of extra selling pressure, in order to prop up the price of devshares.

To which I respond: HELL FUCKING NO, if we ever want our flagship product BTS to break out of this downtrend, we need to be buying it, not dumping more of it on the market to suppress the price.


It seems that Bitshares supporters are just really really good at coming up with every possible way to hurt the price of BTS.  Its almost like we all want it to fail.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:35:39 PM by Ander »
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Offline graffenwalder

Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2014, 04:36:45 PM »
I think right now people just really need to support the BTS price by buying BTS, rather than continuing to take all of the value in BTS, and throw it at every other thing in the bitshares ecosystem.

Unless I'm mistaken, any delegate not claiming 100% is burning the difference. So, I don't see it's controversial to put that difference for certain delegates into DVS.

I wonder if all the BTS not claimed by a delegate could automatically be thrown at DVS.. expecting that must make sense relative to the balance of transactions and the fees miners accept. That would then keep DVS floating at a point relative to BTS and the delegate average payrate. Given that most delegates are only getting 3%, that should be quite a lift to the value of DVS. That would give an incentive to those of us hosting devshares clients.. but perhaps that would be too much?.. Perhaps then 20% of what is not claimed by BTS delegates??

Basically you are saying that we should inflate BTS more, sell the BTS on the market, resulting in thousnads of BTS per day, per delegate that does this of extra selling pressure, in order to prop up the price of devshares.

To which I respond: HELL FUCKING NO, if we ever want our flagship product BTS to break out of this downtrend, we need to be buying it, not dumping more of it on the market to suppress the price.


It seems that Bitshares supporters are just really really good at coming up with every possible way to hurt the price of BTS.  Its almost like you want it to fail.
+5%
Also this would probably result in DVS getting a higher marketcap than BTS, which is nuts

Offline matt608

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Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2014, 04:52:23 PM »
BTS used to by DVS the BTS has to be sold, taking value from BTS.  There's no way a BTS delegate should pay 66% of their pay to AGS + PTS, which is how DVS is distributed.  If it was a testing chain just for BTS alone with 100% BTS sharedrop that would be fine, and is another reason the sharedrop should have been just on BTS.  BTS is the only coin that can fund it and it's BTS developers who are working on it.  PTS + AGS have nothing to do with it.  Unless devs now have no allegiance to BTS but to the toolkit? (while profitable) 

It's 'dev choice' and devs have lots of PTS + AGS so they can drop 66% themselves if they want.  The provided reason for the 66% giveaway was to get the support of AGS + PTS, except they (almost) have no market cap so they're worth much less as supporters.  No 100% BTS holder would vote in a delegate to subsidies AGS + PTS (i.e. DVS).  It's just a big mistake to drop on them when great lengths have been taken to streamline the BTS message, I mean, who are they working for?  BTS or not? 

People think its no big deal because it will be worthless but I'm not so sure.  I've seen countless 'worthless' coins become very valuable, e.g. litecoin.  Crypto is very unpredictable.  We shouldn't underestimate random speculation on DevShares.  There's no need to vote in any subsidy.  If they dropped on just BTS we could organise something as a backup measure if necessary.

Don't want to stir the pot for the sake of it, just expressing my honest opinion as a community member.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 05:28:13 PM by matt608 »

Offline davidpbrown

Re: How to increase the value of Devshares
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2014, 05:47:37 PM »
Also this would probably result in DVS getting a higher marketcap than BTS, which is nuts

Maybe I am confused but I cannot see how that could happen even if you draw on all the fees that delegates got and put them to DVS, the fees are the less part of the value in BTS by orders of magnitude. Certainly it seems there's a lot of value in being delegate but tansfer to DVS could be set at a fraction much lower than 20% too. If you're going to give any DVS value, then you're taking it from BTS one way or another.. it's in the same ecosystem. I don't mind, just a thought. As for comparison with other altcoins.. it should stand like Devcoin DVC and be near zero.. if we want to stress test certain market functions, then that can be coordinated or fudged in some way to provide whatever real value is needed.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 05:49:29 PM by davidpbrown »
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