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Offline Stan

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...from my cold, dead hands!
« on: December 06, 2013, 04:01:51 PM »

A thought experiment for DAC Angels

I once misquoted the actor Charlton Heston by saying, “You can have my ProtoShares when you pry them from my cold, dead hands!”

Then, in our latest Newsletter I implied that, as a DAC Angel Investor in Good Standing (DAIGS), I might willingly contribute some of my precious PTS to help kickstart a promising new DAC.

Well, which is it?

If, as a Developer, I’m going to propose a new DAC myself, I’d better construct a deal for investors that, as a DAC Angel, I myself would gladly accept.  What kind of deal would that be?

Well, setting aside philanthropic impulses, one that makes a lot of money for me, I suppose.

What would make money for me? Let’s do a Einstein “thought experiment”:

Suppose at some point I have one ProtoShare worth 0.1 BTC.
Suppose that some sexy new DAC comes along whose shares I think may quickly grow from 0.001 BTC to 0.01 BTC, just like PTS did in its first two weeks.

Option 1 - Assuming this is a PTS DAC (one that honors the PTS Social Contract) if I just hold my PTS, I will  automagically wind up with 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC and 1 DACshare @ 0.01 BTC.  This gives me a total net worth of 0.11 BTC for sitting on the sidelines - I gained 0.01 BTC!

Option 2 - Suppose instead I trade my 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC for 100 DACshares @ 0.001 BTC.  The DAC launches and climbs in value to 0.01 BTC in the first month.  I then sell 10 of them to get my 1 PTS back. I now have 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC and 90 DACshares @ 0.01 BTC.  This gives me a total net worth of 1.0 BTC - I gained 0.90 BTC, a 90x improvement over my 0.01 gains with Option 1. And I still have my PTS to do this again for every promising new PTS DAC that comes along.  If I sold all my new DACshares, I’d raise enough BTC to buy 10 PTS - a 10x gain.  Or I could let it ride, expecting the new DAC to grow faster than PTS for a while.

Naturally this all depends upon my due diligence, judgement, and skillfully applied luck in evaluating the potential of a DAC proposal before I invest.

With apologies to Charlton Heston, “take my PTS, …please!”
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 04:17:15 PM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Riverhead

Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 04:44:47 PM »
Option 2 also makes the assumption that the value of a PTS remains static during the unknown period of time it takes for the DAC you invested 1PTS into gains 10x its value.  Perhaps as PTS value stabilizes this won't be such a big factor but currently I feel it's a big part of the "buy back in later" aspect of Option 2.

Offline Stan

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 05:12:36 PM »
Option 2 also makes the assumption that the value of a PTS remains static during the unknown period of time it takes for the DAC you invested 1PTS into gains 10x its value.  Perhaps as PTS value stabilizes this won't be such a big factor but currently I feel it's a big part of the "buy back in later" aspect of Option 2.

Exactly!  Every investor in the world has to make such judgements.  The smart ones make money.

My point is that there appear to be lots of situations where I might part with my PTS to fund a new DAC.  Your actual mileage may vary.   :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 06:55:58 PM »
Option 2 also makes the assumption that the value of a PTS remains static during the unknown period of time it takes for the DAC you invested 1PTS into gains 10x its value.  Perhaps as PTS value stabilizes this won't be such a big factor but currently I feel it's a big part of the "buy back in later" aspect of Option 2.

Exactly!  Every investor in the world has to make such judgements.  The smart ones make money.

My point is that there appear to be lots of situations where I might part with my PTS to fund a new DAC.  Your actual mileage may vary.   :)

On the other hand, if you have 100 PTS and you fund a DAC with potential with 1 PTS there is a good chance PTS will get a bump up in value because of it greater than 1%... so you may have fewer PTS but they will be worth more.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 07:42:49 PM »
A thought experiment for DAC Angels

I once misquoted the actor Charlton Heston by saying, “You can have my ProtoShares when you pry them from my cold, dead hands!”

Then, in our latest Newsletter I implied that, as a DAC Angel Investor in Good Standing (DAIGS), I might willingly contribute some of my precious PTS to help kickstart a promising new DAC.

Well, which is it?

If, as a Developer, I’m going to propose a new DAC myself, I’d better construct a deal for investors that, as a DAC Angel, I myself would gladly accept.  What kind of deal would that be?

Well, setting aside philanthropic impulses, one that makes a lot of money for me, I suppose.

What would make money for me? Let’s do a Einstein “thought experiment”:

Suppose at some point I have one ProtoShare worth 0.1 BTC.
Suppose that some sexy new DAC comes along whose shares I think may quickly grow from 0.001 BTC to 0.01 BTC, just like PTS did in its first two weeks.

Option 1 - Assuming this is a PTS DAC (one that honors the PTS Social Contract) if I just hold my PTS, I will  automagically wind up with 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC and 1 DACshare @ 0.01 BTC.  This gives me a total net worth of 0.11 BTC for sitting on the sidelines - I gained 0.01 BTC!

Option 2 - Suppose instead I trade my 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC for 100 DACshares @ 0.001 BTC.  The DAC launches and climbs in value to 0.01 BTC in the first month.  I then sell 10 of them to get my 1 PTS back. I now have 1 ProtoShare @ 0.1 BTC and 90 DACshares @ 0.01 BTC.  This gives me a total net worth of 1.0 BTC - I gained 0.90 BTC, a 90x improvement over my 0.01 gains with Option 1. And I still have my PTS to do this again for every promising new PTS DAC that comes along.  If I sold all my new DACshares, I’d raise enough BTC to buy 10 PTS - a 10x gain.  Or I could let it ride, expecting the new DAC to grow faster than PTS for a while.

Naturally this all depends upon my due diligence, judgement, and skillfully applied luck in evaluating the potential of a DAC proposal before I invest.

With apologies to Charlton Heston, “take my PTS, …please!”

Thanks for clarifying that Stan especially that the following statement is still expected of outside DAC developers "Assuming this is a PTS DAC (one that honors the PTS Social Contract)"

Offline Stan

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 04:31:20 PM »
Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2013, 08:24:32 PM »
Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!

I get where your coming from Stan, if we are going to get external DAC developers to give us a piece of their pie. Then as a community we are going to have to offer solid economic reasons for doing this. Maybe its worth starting a thread on that subject? Ive been giving it some thought my self. I came to the conclusion that we need to see a DAC (dacling) in operation to learn what support it will need and if a ready made community gives that support in a sufficiently better way than a new community based around a go it alone DAC.


Offline phoenix

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2013, 08:41:32 PM »
Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!

I get where your coming from Stan, if we are going to get external DAC developers to give us a piece of their pie. Then as a community we are going to have to offer solid economic reasons for doing this. Maybe its worth starting a thread on that subject? Ive been giving it some thought my self. I came to the conclusion that we need to see a DAC (dacling) in operation to learn what support it will need and if a ready made community gives that support in a sufficiently better way than a new community based around a go it alone DAC.

Perhaps Invictus or somebody else should release a test DAC to do this? It could be a very simple DAC, we don't need to test functionality so much as the impact of community on the DAC
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Offline Stan

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 09:24:12 PM »
Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!

I get where your coming from Stan, if we are going to get external DAC developers to give us a piece of their pie. Then as a community we are going to have to offer solid economic reasons for doing this. Maybe its worth starting a thread on that subject? Ive been giving it some thought my self. I came to the conclusion that we need to see a DAC (dacling) in operation to learn what support it will need and if a ready made community gives that support in a sufficiently better way than a new community based around a go it alone DAC.

Perhaps Invictus or somebody else should release a test DAC to do this? It could be a very simple DAC, we don't need to test functionality so much as the impact of community on the DAC

Let's consider this to be that start of a thread on the subject.

To be a valid test I would think it would have to involve incinerating or recycling real money. 
Thus the test DAC we chose would have to be worth parting with real money to own, no?

As for the DAC developers giving us a piece of their pie... I think its the other way around isn't it?
They are coming to us (the Angel community) looking for investment to fund development of a DAC. 
In turn, they social contract to recycle that investment into our community rather than send it up in smoke.
Our community gets one or more new DACs, tools, training, support, videos, publicity, etc.

Sounds like solid economic reasons for both sides to me.   :)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 09:26:50 PM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 12:19:59 AM »
Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!

I get where your coming from Stan, if we are going to get external DAC developers to give us a piece of their pie. Then as a community we are going to have to offer solid economic reasons for doing this. Maybe its worth starting a thread on that subject? Ive been giving it some thought my self. I came to the conclusion that we need to see a DAC (dacling) in operation to learn what support it will need and if a ready made community gives that support in a sufficiently better way than a new community based around a go it alone DAC.

Perhaps Invictus or somebody else should release a test DAC to do this? It could be a very simple DAC, we don't need to test functionality so much as the impact of community on the DAC

Let's consider this to be that start of a thread on the subject.

To be a valid test I would think it would have to involve incinerating or recycling real money. 
Thus the test DAC we chose would have to be worth parting with real money to own, no?

As for the DAC developers giving us a piece of their pie... I think its the other way around isn't it?
They are coming to us (the Angel community) looking for investment to fund development of a DAC. 
In turn, they social contract to recycle that investment into our community rather than send it up in smoke.
Our community gets one or more new DACs, tools, training, support, videos, publicity, etc.

Sounds like solid economic reasons for both sides to me.   :)

Its only a solid economic reason for both sides if fundraising here is more beneficial than fundraising elseware. This is the argument that has to be made. Promises like trust are weak hands we need evidence. I believe the first has to be released by Invictus and then we and any future fundraiser will see what support it receives. If we show added value then they will fund raise here and give us a piece of their pie, based on that added value. If we carnt show added value developers will raise funds wherever its cheapest here or elsewhere.

Offline Stan

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 04:42:06 PM »
Angel Miners - An Environmentally Friendly Solution

in·cin·er·a·tor  (n-sn-rtr)  n.
… an apparatus, such as a furnace, for burning waste.

Remember the incinerator?  Every big box store used to have one for burning empty cardboard shipping boxes.  Now-a-days that would be considered “environmentally unfriendly”.  You’re supposed to recycle, don’t you know?  Its good for the ecosystem.

I think its time we talked about environmentally friendly crypto-equity mining.  At this very moment most ProtoShares are being mined by sending money to outside companies to be burned up in high-tech incinerators.

Amazon rents them, for example.  You send Amazon your money once a month.  They burn it up in their incinerators and then send you ProtoShares proportional to the amount of money they burned up for you.  They have all kinds of incinerators to choose from if you care about how they burn your money.  They have CPU incinerators and GPU incinerators and if you want, someone will burn your money up on a high-powered ASIC incinerator.  New incinerators are being developed every day.  Most people don’t care how their money is burned up, as long as they get their expected number of shares.

Invictus is researching a new kind of environmentally friendly incinerator replacement that we could make available to the crypto-equity community for any new DAC developer to use.  We call them “Angel Miners”.  As a black box, they work the same as all the others.  You send money to the incinerator operator and get back DACshares.  The difference is in how this incinerator disposes of your money.  Instead of burning it up and blowing the heat up a chimney, the money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Yes, you heard that right, your money gets recycled into the ecosystem!

Its used for developing better wallets, and new kinds of DACs, and browsers, and tools.  It goes for support hot-lines, and better documentation, and promotional videos, and maybe even Super Bowl ads.  All things that grow the ecosystem and increase the value of all its crypto-equities.

Most people don’t care what kind of incinerator Amazon uses.  Now you have an environmentally responsible reason to choose!

DAC developers should clearly state in their promotional literature whether your mining software is eco-friendly or not.  Going green could make a difference in how the community embraces your product!

The reason I posted this sadly amusing observation, is to highlight a serious question:

If the number of miners will expand as long as they are profitable, and difficulty increases with the number of those miners, then the cost of mining a share will always approach the market price of a share.  This means that the amount of money that must be incinerated approaches value of all shares when mined.  For a new DAC whose shares quickly level off at, say, 0.1 BTC, this means that after 20 million shares are mined then the industry will have literally burned 2 million bitcoins, or 2 billion USD, just to put its shares into circulation.  Since we are envisioning scores of DACs, the amount of wasted resources becomes staggering.  If that same amount of money were captured to be spent on promoting the industry, how much better off would we be?

How can an industry thrive if it insists on such wasteful processes? 
We must seek a better way.


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline stuartcharles

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 05:11:36 PM »
Its definitely an idea worth pursuing. A less "wasteful" method of distributing shares which secured a network, was the correct economic choice for a developer and further influenced them to your social contract would be the perfect scenario. Any ideas how to pull all that together? anyone?

Offline phoenix

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Re: ...from my cold, dead hands!
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 10:54:28 PM »
I like this idea in general. When can we expect some more detailed plans for how to pull it off?
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