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Offline bytemaster

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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline wuyanren

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2014, 06:04:19 AM »
very good, BM gege.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2014, 06:55:51 AM »
I definitely agree with delegates having better business plans but I don't think I'm necessarily a fan of trying to monetize everything. Even though I'm very dilution conservative, I think the user experience is critical & I think it would be far more beneficial if our top sites, light and mobile wallets were  generally free from unnecessary advertising and fees kept competitively low. It would even be nice if there were some over-arching branding elements so that interacting with BTS would seem more like a seamless, cohesive, professional experience than how users currently interact with Bitcoin imo.


Offline Rune

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 10:51:07 AM »
I totally disagree with this. It's inefficient for someone working for the blockchain to get paid by something else than the blockchain. There's a reason why people are unimpressed with the bitcoin foundation and blockstream, their economic incentives and motives are difficult to gauge, and they pose (IMO) dangerous risks of centralization.

Core developers, open source wallet developers and marketers are the groups whose work most obviously benefit the blockchain directly, but there's also examples of common infrastructure for our ecosystem. If bitsharesblocks.com had its user experience reduced by ads, it would cost bitshares more in usability than the amount of delegate pay that would be saved (assuming svk will eventually set a fair market rate USD ceiling on his salary). More importantly having svk deriving all his income from a delegate position puts him under the authority of stakeholders, ensuring our long term control of the common infrastructure and thus reducing risk.

And seriously, putting google ads on your blog??? Bitshares is going to look like a bunch of hustlers trying to nickel and dime everything if our lead developer is selling shitty google ads :p I'm starting to think this is a Christmas prank :p
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:56:19 PM by Rune »

Offline jckj

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 11:00:52 AM »
Good job, I'll join in if bitshares is ready for appling with btter UI better app.

Offline Shentist

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 11:12:23 AM »
I totally disagree with this. It's inefficient for someone working for the blockchain to get paid by something else the blockchain. There's a reason why people are unimpressed with the bitcoin foundation and blockstream, their economic incentives and motives are difficult to gauge, and they pose (IMO) dangerous risks of centralization.

Core developers, open source wallet developers and marketers are the groups whose work most obviously benefit the blockchain directly, but there's also examples of common infrastructure for our ecosystem. If bitsharesblocks.com had its user experience reduced by ads, it would cost bitshares more in usability than the amount of delegate pay that would be saved (assuming svk will eventually set a fair market rate USD ceiling on his salary). More importantly having svk deriving all his income from a delegate position puts him under the authority of stakeholders, ensuring our long term control of the common infrastructure and thus reducing risk.

And seriously, putting google ads on your blog??? Bitshares is going to look like a bunch of hustlers trying to nickel and dime everything if our lead developer is selling shitty google ads :p I'm starting to think this is a Christmas prank :p

 +5% on a blog without much traffic. makes no sense. you should remove them for now. Bitsharesblocks don't need ads because he is elected as well.

Offline vlight

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 12:27:44 PM »
And seriously, putting google ads on your blog??? Bitshares is going to look like a bunch of hustlers trying to nickel and dime everything if our lead developer is selling shitty google ads :p I'm starting to think this is a Christmas prank :p

 +5%

Offline cass

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 12:35:00 PM »
And seriously, putting google ads on your blog??? Bitshares is going to look like a bunch of hustlers trying to nickel and dime everything if our lead developer is selling shitty google ads :p I'm starting to think this is a Christmas prank :p

 +5%

 +5%
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Offline matt608

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2014, 01:09:17 PM »
And seriously, putting google ads on your blog??? Bitshares is going to look like a bunch of hustlers trying to nickel and dime everything if our lead developer is selling shitty google ads :p I'm starting to think this is a Christmas prank :p

 +5%

 +5%

 +5%

Google ads is dangling a distraction from BitShares in-front of readers while damaging credibility at the same time.  Businesses don't generally put up ads unless the content is their product, which it isn't here, BitShares is the product.   Imagine if Gavin Andresen had Google ads on his blog, it would be a joke, undermining the value of the product he's writing about. 

I was wondering when this topic would come up, it's an important topic.   As delegate's sites become more and more popular they will start to be worth something in their own right, in which case, who does the site belong to?  If it's BitShares funded the creator shouldn't be able to sell it or earn extra income from ads as it should belong to BitShares stakeholders, who paid for it. 

Anything funded by delegate pay should be ad free unless a pre-arranged deal was made in the delegates campaign.  An exception would be to allow BitShares referral links to act as an extra incentive for effective marketing and for tracking purposes.

The BitShares business model is sound as it is, no need to change it. Delegates can always put up ads of their sites and see if the community votes them out, but that is asking for trouble.  Ads are space for competitors.  Imagine if Ethereum put up ads, BitShares would buy all of them!  It's inviting competitors into a BitShares landing page.

Amazon referral links could be acceptable too as they are non-intrusive, so long as the content isn't deliberately skewed to get a link in, but even that is debatable, the income would have to be declared.

If a delegate proposed a business plan in advance and said they plan to use BitShares as funding initially before switching to ads after x months + burning their income, that's different.  I'd be interested in seeing these kind of delegate proposals. 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 01:14:34 PM by matt608 »

Offline Riverhead

Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2014, 01:24:57 PM »
Like any business there are different types of employees.

In this case we have people that work for the blockchain, like BM and toast for example, and people that create products that use the blockchain, like svk. For the former it makes sense to maintain a delegate and generate income from the blockchain. For the latter I agree with the bootstrap model where the blockchain funds startup costs until the product or service is self sustaining.

Once self sustaining the delegate position can be given up to someone else who needs the startup funds for their business or service. This would allow thousands and thousands of ventures to be funded.

Offline Rune

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2014, 01:37:48 PM »
Like any business there are different types of employees.

In this case we have people that work for the blockchain, like BM and toast for example, and people that create products that use the blockchain, like svk. For the former it makes sense to maintain a delegate and generate income from the blockchain. For the latter I agree with the bootstrap model where the blockchain funds startup costs until the product or service is self sustaining.

Once self sustaining the delegate position can be given up to someone else who needs the startup funds for their business or service. This would allow thousands and thousands of ventures to be funded.

Having vital infrastructure like the primary block explorer website controlled by third party financing increases systemic risk. I don't mind having third party sites competing of course, but I wouldn't feel comfortable if our DAC didn't control at least one block explorer through delegate funding. Assuming direct control of all infrastructure is really one of the most obvious steps a DAC should take, we should look at ripple for inspiration in this regard because their business model works really well IMO.

Offline ssjpts

Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2014, 01:49:02 PM »
 +5%
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Offline oldman

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Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 01:59:02 PM »
Google ads etc. are tacky, end of story.

You don't see any large or reputable financial institutions cluttering up their websites with banners and ads. There is a reason for this. Instant loss of credibility.

I strongly disagree with 3rd party advertising on bitshares and related websites.

Offline wackou

Re: Delegates Should Have a Business Plan
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2014, 02:31:52 PM »
 +5% to most of the reactions in this thread, please oh please don't start puttings ads everywhere, this is the worst you could do... To be honest I'd rather be diluted than start seeing ads on bitsharesblocks...

Quote
Delegates that are not thinking about how to free themselves from the need of delegate pay will bring far less value to BitShares than delegates who do.

I beg to disagree, I believe core developers (like you, bytemaster) should really spend their time developing on the core code instead of trying to monetize your blog via ads or referral links. I also very much doubt you would manage to be paid enough, people reading your blog are absolutely passionate about what you write, but let's face it: you don't stand a chance even against a stupid cat video on youtube, page-views-wise.

In the end, it really is up to the shareholders to vote for who they want to see as delegates, and if they want to see a team being fully paid by the blockchain to continue developing, then so be it. If they want to fund a delegate only for a current period of time, for a bounty or a one-time job, then so be it too. As long as the delegates can convince the shareholders they bring more value than what they consume, then that's it.

Of course, it is a good idea for delegates to have a backup plan in case they are voted out, as there's no promise they will stay voted in, but I believe some do provide a core service to the blockchain and as such should be paid directly for it.
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