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Offline fluxer555

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How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« on: December 24, 2014, 06:11:59 PM »

All this talk about making a delegate to sponsor Vitalik as got me thinking of a way we can make joining BitShares irresistible for any dev we want badly enough.

1. A 'tech delegate' creates a 100% delegate for a dev we want to work for BitShares (like Vitalik)
2. The tech delegate announces this creation, and publicly posts "If you would like to support this developer to be hired by BTS, then vote now!". This tech delegate also posts his proposed 'signing terms' (which I will explain in step 5.)
3. Shareholders vote in delegate. The first month of pay is used to pay for registration fee.
4. Pay after the first month is then contributed to the 'signing term' funds.
5. After sufficient funds have been raised, a representative (possibly the tech delegate) contacts the dev and offers them the position, along with the signing terms.

A signing term is a 'deal package' to the dev to make the position more attractive. For example, the simplest of signing terms could be communicated to the dev as,

"We have a delegate already producing blocks for you, at a rate or $5000 per month. They will be burned until you decide you would like to join us."

Or, we could wait awhile, and build up a signing bonus:

"We have a delegate already producing blocks for you at a rate of $5000 per month. Additionally if you decide to work for us, you will get a $15,000 bonus after your first month of contributing to our ecosystem."

Or the bonus could be vested.

Or we could offer the delegate to more than one person, along with the bonus, and the first person to sign on gets it.

Or *insert your creative signing terms here*.

===========

I propose we create a delegate whose purpose is to hire Vitalik. Not a 'sponsor' or any charity bullshit. After paying back the registration fee, Every month up to 3 months worth of pay is saved and given to him as a bonus just for joining us. The rest is burned.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 06:16:26 PM by fluxer555 »

Offline Rune

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2014, 06:59:30 PM »
Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

Offline gamey

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2014, 07:17:20 PM »
Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.
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Offline liondani

Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2014, 07:40:31 PM »
I am sure the time where talented devs will beg for a delegate slot on our blockchain/ecosystem is nearer than anybody can imagine/think right now...
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Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2014, 07:57:56 PM »
I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Offline Rune

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 08:29:26 PM »
Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I agree, if we could advertise that a single delegate paid 10k it would be a lot easier to get attention. We have precedence for a single person running several paid delegates though, so it should be possible for a well established bitcoin/altcoin dev like Taaki or Todd (my two favorite "targets") to get enough delegates voted in for them to receive a fair market rate salary (especially considering the immediate market cap benefit their announcement would give us). Problem is that we can't simply approach them and "offer" such a position. They still publicly have to do a lot of work themselves to get the votes, and it won't really be possible to do behind-the-scenes negotiations and then only announce the deal when it's already closed.

Regarding the language, do you think it would be an advantage if we hired a respected bitcoin dev to rewrite the entire client in a different language, like Taaki did with libbitcoin for bitcoin back in the day? (don't even know if that is feasible for bitshares or if it's too complex)

I have a feeling this could be one of those things that would really make bitcoiners trust bitshares a lot more, since they would be able to use software that was written by one of their own, and could open up the project to a lot more developers in the long term.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 10:43:12 PM »

I agree, if we could advertise that a single delegate paid 10k it would be a lot easier to get attention. We have precedence for a single person running several paid delegates though, so it should be possible for a well established bitcoin/altcoin dev like Taaki or Todd (my two favorite "targets") to get enough delegates voted in for them to receive a fair market rate salary (especially considering the immediate market cap benefit their announcement would give us). Problem is that we can't simply approach them and "offer" such a position. They still publicly have to do a lot of work themselves to get the votes, and it won't really be possible to do behind-the-scenes negotiations and then only announce the deal when it's already closed.


I would be interested in testing this. I think BTS should attempt to get some developer on a three month trial/contract and view how much value the market gives moves like that.

I think big BitAsset announcements are far more value changing though. BTC38 & BitCNY was absolutely huge, it was up 20% at one point I think. We weren't able to judge how valuable that was because it coincided with the big fork. I think that announcement alone could have really marked a significant turning point in BTS growth otherwise.

Offline luckybit

Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2014, 12:44:52 AM »
Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.
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Offline luckybit

Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2014, 12:47:11 AM »
I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Bitshares needs around 100 developers. The competition right now is for minds and the developing talent is the most precious early on. Once we have scripting then it will be about marketing and partnerships.
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Offline toast

Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2014, 01:02:50 AM »
I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Bitshares needs around 100 developers. The competition right now is for minds and the developing talent is the most precious early on. Once we have scripting then it will be about marketing and partnerships.

There's not a chance in hell we will have scripting before ethereum is launched and popular among devs with a good toolset. We need infrastructure devs more than blockchain devs. The make-or-break app (bitassets) is already done.
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Offline luckybit

Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2014, 01:16:14 AM »
I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Bitshares needs around 100 developers. The competition right now is for minds and the developing talent is the most precious early on. Once we have scripting then it will be about marketing and partnerships.

There's not a chance in hell we will have scripting before ethereum is launched and popular among devs with a good toolset. We need infrastructure devs more than blockchain devs. The make-or-break app (bitassets) is already done.

It doesn't have to be before Ethereum is launched. I don't think being first is as important as doing it best. I do know that Ethereum could catch early momentum by being first but it really depends on a lot of variables.

I think Bitshares needs scripting to be competitive with Ethereum even if Ethereum is first.

How do you see this playing out and what sort of infrastructure do you think is needed? Gateways?
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Offline pc

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2014, 11:57:57 PM »
The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.
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Offline Rune

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2014, 12:06:24 AM »
The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Wouldn't you be willing to do it part time for a single delegate? You could come up with some project you think needs to be done and then turn it into a delegate proposal. At first it would also need to be something you're also doing out of passion for crypto, and not just for payment (Like I imagine the situation was with PTS-DPOS). But over time as bitshares grows it could become a massive job and even potentially a massive business.

Offline fluxer555

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2014, 01:08:16 AM »
Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

How about 10k per month?

Offline gamey

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Re: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 04:35:37 AM »
Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

yea, price isn't important because people want to work far under market wage.  Just because someone 'knows C++' doesn't mean they are that valuable.  You could find a genius coder who never touched C++ who would have far more value than someone who "knows C++". 

Price does matter.  You basic argument is that competent people with IQ's 120+ will work partially for charity if the marketing is right.  I don't begin to understand why you think this. 

I love reading this forum and hearing gems of wisdom.. which all boil down to.. "We want the best talent for the least amount of money".  The people who give us these gems seem to think they are saying something of value. 

I mean... You honestly think that the people with a 'proven track record' that know C++ can't find a job?  Ok... well...  I guess Bitshares must already be on the moon.

Best case is you find a decent dev who knows C++ and is not in a first world country and loves crypto projects.

Although I may sound very negative my goal is just to make people think in a realistic fashion.

Even C++ programmers have to communicate with the core team which is quite difficult to do.  I don't even think they need C++ devs anymore.

The conversation should be based more around expectations than wishful thinking.

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