Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer  (Read 1111 times)

Offline theoretical

How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« on: January 02, 2015, 05:18:04 PM »

Stan / bytemaster should publish a budget spreadsheet of how much BitUSD they think is necessary to run core operations for the quarter / year, broken down by TITAN account.

Then, every day a script sends an IOU UIA to each account for each dollar of shortfall between their budget and what they were able to earn directly from the DAC with their delegate(s).

For the paranoid, public information can allow a script to audit that the IOU issuance matches the budget.  The IOU UIA can be issued by a multisig address signed by multiple trusted community members running independent copies of the script.

Then we get one or more new 100% delegate(s) who promise to use their newly created BTS (minus reasonable commission / expenses) to buy BitUSD, then create a buy wall at 1 IOU / BitUSD.  Burning any IOU they obtain (or returning them to the issuer address, I think burning UIA is actually not implemented; see https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares/issues/883 ).

Since the IOU is a UIA, there is no centralization issue simply letting bytemaster inflate as many IOU shares as he wants to and distribute them as he sees fit.  If the shareholders agree that bytemaster's budget is fair and transparent, then they will elect 100% delegates to give the IOU a market valuation backed by the power of the BTS printing press.  If the shareholders don't like the budget, they can simply kick out the delegates that support this scheme.
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline bytemaster

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2015, 05:22:34 PM »
I am sorry, but this kind of legalistic penny pinching will kill BTS and hurt morale.   

Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

I am very much against the idea of "selling your time" or "buying time".   If these guys are only working for a paycheck then we would get crap work out of them.   If they are working for more than a paycheck then we will get far more value out of them.   

Lets not remove incentive for efficiency.  Lets not begrudge someone profits earned as a result of taking great risk.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline theoretical

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2015, 05:38:04 PM »
Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

I think I had at most ~100K genesis block BTS.  I believed in the product so I shorted the hell out of USD -- but that turned out to be almost exactly when the exchange rate was at its peak.  I got margin called when I was in the process of moving to Virginia -- something you wanted me to do -- and didn't have time to check the markets every day.

I had to ask you for AGS funds just to get enough BTS to register my 100% delegate.

I'll have to consume a substantial portion of my 1M BTS bonus to eat over the next couple months.

If I had a guarantee that I'd be able to run a one hundred percent delegate indefinitely, then I would be able to include the NPV of a 100% delegate's future earnings in my compensation.  However, you've publicly stated that you want developers to burn any delegate income in excess of a market salary, and I assume shareholders will side with you -- I'd have no way to keep them from reneging on any promise they make now not to fire my delegate if I continue to operate at 100% after BTS value goes to the moon.

This argument does not apply to me.
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline theoretical

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2015, 05:51:27 PM »
I am sorry, but this kind of legalistic penny pinching will kill BTS and hurt morale.   

So wait.  How exactly will paying people a fair salary for their efforts hurt morale?

Nothing is "legalistic" about OP proposal; it does not involve the real world legal system in any way, shape or form.  It's using the BTS tools of decentralized shareholder consensus and user-issued assets to create a market-based solution to the practical problem of compensating developers adequately for their time while maintaining a strong level of decentralization in the delegate slate, without any hardfork.

As for "penny pinching":  You want to refuse to inflate BTS to adequately pay developers, when the DAC has the ability to do so while remaining below the hard-coded supply envelope.  I'd say that is penny pinching.

BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline theoretical

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2015, 05:55:55 PM »
Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

Assume for the moment I did have a large stake.  Then I have two choices:

(a) Leave and watch my stake grow x% based on the efforts of other developers
(b) Stay and watch my stake grow y% based on the efforts of myself and other developers combined

My effective salary is then (y-x)% times my stake, plus income from any delegate(s) I operate.

I am not sure that (y-x)% is large enough even if my stake is large.
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline NewMine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 549
    • View Profile
Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2015, 05:57:43 PM »
Already happening 6 months sooner than I predicted.

Offline bytemaster

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2015, 05:58:34 PM »
I think you are misunderstanding my intentions.  My intentions are for developers to be well compensated and error on the side of over compensation.  The penny pinchers I was referring to are those who are trying to nickel and dime developers and demanding excessive accountability to the point of hindering productivity.

I have no problem with developers keeping 100% pay and not burning surplus if they can convince shareholders to keep them voted in.
I have no problem with developers asking for additional delegate slots if one slot doesn't pay enough.
I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 
I had no problem advancing you the funds to register your paid delegate nor trusting you with a no-strings-attached bonus

I think everyone values you and you will have no problem maintaining a good income while you have support of the community.

I am against any kind of commitment to vote for you.  People have a right to vote how they think is best when they think it.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline carpet ride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
    • View Profile
Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 06:00:28 PM »
Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

Assume for the moment I did have a large stake.  Then I have two choices:

(a) Leave and watch my stake grow x% based on the efforts of other developers
(b) Stay and watch my stake grow y% based on the efforts of myself and other developers combined

My effective salary is then (y-x)% times my stake, plus income from any delegate(s) I operate.

I am not sure that (y-x)% is large enough even if my stake is large.

Just trying to understand the dev mindset more.  At the moment, what factors motivate you to work full time on the project and can you quantify how much each factor matters to you?
All opinions are my own. Anything said on this forum does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation between myself and anyone else.
Check out my blog: http://CertainAssets.com
Buy the ticket, take the ride.

Offline btswildpig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1404
    • View Profile
Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 06:22:30 PM »
Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

Assume for the moment I did have a large stake.  Then I have two choices:

(a) Leave and watch my stake grow x% based on the efforts of other developers
(b) Stay and watch my stake grow y% based on the efforts of myself and other developers combined

My effective salary is then (y-x)% times my stake, plus income from any delegate(s) I operate.

I am not sure that (y-x)% is large enough even if my stake is large.

In theory , if your contribution is big enough that somehow you think the project can not go to the moon without you , then (y-x) would be really huge .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline fluxer555

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
    • View Profile
Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 06:31:53 PM »
In theory , if your contribution is big enough that somehow you think the project can not go to the moon without you , then (y-x) would be really huge .

Or, you can think of it as possibly:

- Without you: moon
- With you: alpha centauri
BTS: flux-tips

Offline theoretical

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 06:56:26 PM »
Just trying to understand the dev mindset more.  At the moment, what factors motivate you to work full time on the project and can you quantify how much each factor matters to you?

What matters most to me is how interesting the problems we have are, how understanding and improving the code requires knowledge of a lot of diverse stuff from low-level computer hackery (one intermittent crash I successfully debugged involved tracing through the Bitshares client one assembly language instruction at a time), cryptographic mathematics, economic theory.  When I took an introductory macroeconomics course (in college years ago), I never imagined a career in software development would one day lead to effectively being an influential advisor to a central bank!

But the problem is that my personal financial situation isn't the greatest, and I feel some pressure to be sure I'm getting paid a fair market salary.

So I guess I would say that being paid is more important, since I'll probably eventually leave if I'm not getting paid enough, even though I love the work.  Does that make sense?
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline theoretical

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2015, 07:07:20 PM »
I have no problem with developers asking for additional delegate slots if one slot doesn't pay enough.

This is the main issue.  Some discussion in the other thread led me to believe that multiple 100% delegate registration for developers was being discouraged due to increased centralization.  This thread started out as a technical proposal for mechanics that would achieve the same economic outcome for developers as multiple delegate registration, without the drawback of increased centralization.

I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 

Transparency in AGS usage is good, especially as regards the bonus.

I had no problem advancing you the funds to register your paid delegate nor trusting you with a no-strings-attached bonus

I was more using this as an example to illustrate how meager my BTS holdings actually are.

I think everyone values you and you will have no problem maintaining a good income while you have support of the community.

I hope that's the case, I've been active on this forum and trying to be sure my contributions are public.

I am against any kind of commitment to vote for you.  People have a right to vote how they think is best when they think it.

Understandable.  It sets a bad precedent if delegates aren't continuously held accountable.
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2481
    • View Profile
Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2015, 07:16:01 PM »
Quote
So I guess I would say that being paid is more important, since I'll probably eventually leave if I'm not getting paid enough, even though I love the work.  Does that make sense?
Can you say how much you received in total as pay (BTS, BTC, USD) and how long you have been working full time so things can be put into perspective?

Offline theoretical

Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 07:17:40 PM »
I think you are misunderstanding my intentions.  My intentions are for developers to be well compensated and error on the side of over compensation.  The penny pinchers I was referring to are those who are trying to nickel and dime developers and demanding excessive accountability to the point of hindering productivity.

I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 

I want to make my own intentions clear as well.  It's not my intention to soak the community for the year-end bonus from AGS funds and additional 100% delegate(s).  Rather, my problem is that the AGS bonus will only last a couple months at the current exchange rate, and I want to be reasonably sure that I'll still be able to eat when it runs out, even if BTS hasn't gone to the moon by then.

Despite the tax accounting of the bonus, I think the community will be unlikely to support any future delegate proposal which does not treat the bonus as an advance payment of my 2015 funding.  Thus, even though I am not contractually obligated to do so, I currently plan on sticking around for at least 2-3 months with a single delegate regardless of the outcome of this discussion.

Then I plan to start a campaign for 1-2 additional 100% delegate(s) sometime in February or early March.  At that time I will provide a detailed accounting to the community, showing that my bonus has run out and I do in fact need the additional delegate(s) to continue to receive a competitive salary, and also including a detailed list of my recent contributions.

Edit:  This plan is on hold until I can discuss things with bytemaster in person and decide what I should do.

Note that most other developers received a much larger bonus, and will not be in that situation at the same time.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 06:12:17 PM by theoretical »
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline NewMine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 549
    • View Profile
Re: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2015, 07:31:49 PM »
I think you are misunderstanding my intentions.  My intentions are for developers to be well compensated and error on the side of over compensation.  The penny pinchers I was referring to are those who are trying to nickel and dime developers and demanding excessive accountability to the point of hindering productivity.

I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 

I want to make my own intentions clear as well.  It's not my intention to soak the community for the year-end bonus from AGS funds and additional 100% delegate(s).  Rather, my problem is that the AGS bonus will only last a couple months at the current exchange rate, and I want to be reasonably sure that I'll still be able to eat when it runs out, even if BTS hasn't gone to the moon by then.

Despite the tax accounting of the bonus, I think the community will be unlikely to support any future delegate proposal which does not treat the bonus as an advance payment of my 2015 funding.  Thus, even though I am not contractually obligated to do so, I currently plan on sticking around for at least 2-3 months with a single delegate regardless of the outcome of this discussion.

Then I plan to start a campaign for 1-2 additional 100% delegate(s) sometime in February or early March.  At that time I will provide a detailed accounting to the community, showing that my bonus has run out and I do in fact need the additional delegate(s) to continue to receive a competitive salary, and also including a detailed list of my recent contributions.

Note that most other developers received a much larger bonus, and will not be in that situation at the same time.

Wait. You just got $17K bonus and you have a 100% delegate raking around $2k per month? Plus, I assume you got $100K/yr prorated for however many months you were on I3/AGS payroll and you are publicly complaining that you think you won't be able to eat in a fewmonths?

Is this your only job? Or Did you quit a job to do this project?

 

Google+