Poll

How much is enough to pay the legal delegate's tech at current marketcap?

5%
2 (11.8%)
8%
1 (5.9%)
10%
5 (29.4%)
13%
0 (0%)
15%
2 (11.8%)
More than any of the options you put here...
5 (29.4%)
Less than any of the options you put here...
2 (11.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: January 20, 2015, 08:08:01 PM

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Offline fuzzy

Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« on: January 13, 2015, 08:06:28 PM »

I have found someone in a very friendly jurisdiction (Shanghai) for crypto and would like to have him run the Legal Delegate for the community.  His name is Cube and he has been around for quite some time.  I trust him. 

With that said, I would like to start trying to set a precedent where we actually pay the highly technical individuals running delegates at a rate worth their time that will also help align the incentives toward Delegate Technicians only running one delegate per chain.  My initial thoughts are to provide Cube with 10% of the 100% pay, however I would like to reach out to the community before we go ahead with this plan. 

Of course, as the marketcap substantially increases, we can revisit his payment for running this delegate, but I would hope that we at least try to make it profitable enough for him to want to put a lot of effort into making sure the delegate is working flawlessly at all times.  Please let me know.  What you think would be fair compensation at the current marketcap (which equates to approximately $1400 a month for a 100% delegate).

« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 08:12:23 PM by fuzzy »
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 08:25:07 PM »
I have found someone in a very friendly jurisdiction (Shanghai)) for crypto and would like to have him run the Legal Delegate for the community.  His name is Cube and he has been around for quite some time.  I trust him. 

With that said, I would like to start trying to set a precedent where we actually pay the highly technical individuals running delegates at a rate worth their time that will also help align the incentives toward Delegate Technicians only running one delegate per chain.  My initial thoughts are to provide Cube with 10% of the 100% pay, however I would like to reach out to the community before we go ahead with this plan. 

Of course, as the marketcap substantially increases, we can revisit his payment for running this delegate, but I would hope that we at least try to make it profitable enough for him to want to put a lot of effort into making sure the delegate is working flawlessly at all times.  Please let me know.  What you think would be fair compensation at the current marketcap (which equates to approximately $1400 a month for a 100% delegate).

Point 1.  There may be concentrations of delegates forming in some juridictions
             and Shanghai is possibly one of them.

Point 2.  We are all hoping and expecting that the market cap is going to rise   
              again sooner rather than later. Although 10% seems more than
              reasonable today (depending on what services Cube would be
              offering), it may be over or under pay in the very near future. Would
              it not be better to specify a bitAsset amount for his share?

Offline arhag

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Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 08:49:30 PM »
Instead of negotiating a fixed percentage why not negotiate a fixed USD weekly pay rate.

Let's say the volume-weighted average price of BTS in the past week (in USD/BTS) is P. Let's also say his negotiated weekly salary in USD is S. Then each week he can keep X BTS and send the remaining collected BTS in the past week to the legal delegate, where:
X = max(0, (50 * (number of blocks produced in the last week) -  max(0, (29950 -  (S/P)))))

Then we just need to argue for a reasonable value for S (say S = 30, for a yearly salary of approximately $1560). This salary can of course be renegotiated in the future.

Offline davidpbrown

Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 09:12:34 PM »
Good due diligence is as important as devs and marketing... but perhaps there needs to be something specific to work on. In this environment the context might be defined by legislators. If Cube has an international awareness; experience; and capability to be a major authority voice, then having someone up to speed that can help BitShares contend with complexity could be invaluable.

Remember everything about consensus, is about confidence. Much of the challenge will be where the legal limit lies and communicating that clearly - an authority voice on hand who does deliver would be great. For the right international advice, I would push for 100%; for local to Asia - if he's someone who can also speak + 1 languages then 50% perhaps. Everyone underestimates administrative support but it can make an important contribution in avoiding problems.


That said.. to get the votes..

> I trust him.

is not sufficient.. what are his capabilities and experience.
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 10:41:07 PM »
Instead of negotiating a fixed percentage why not negotiate a fixed USD weekly pay rate.

Let's say the volume-weighted average price of BTS in the past week (in USD/BTS) is P. Let's also say his negotiated weekly salary in USD is S. Then each week he can keep X BTS and send the remaining collected BTS in the past week to the legal delegate, where:
X = max(0, (50 * (number of blocks produced in the last week) -  max(0, (29950 -  (S/P)))))

Then we just need to argue for a reasonable value for S (say S = 30, for a yearly salary of approximately $1560). This salary can of course be renegotiated in the future.

I like this idea.  I'm going to contact Cube so he can play a bigger role.  Just so everyone knows, I would be wanting to have at least some kind of multisig for the funds to be released, so he would also be setting that up. 

As for the pay rate being higher, I am trying to work on getting the pay rate for the techs to be higher, on average, because I think it is better for DPOS based chains as a whole if techs do not have to run multiple delegates to sustain their operations and pay the bills.  Ultimately, I think we should focus on tech delegates only being allowed to run 1 delegate per chain. 


Good due diligence is as important as devs and marketing... but perhaps there needs to be something specific to work on. In this environment the context might be defined by legislators. If Cube has an international awareness; experience; and capability to be a major authority voice, then having someone up to speed that can help BitShares contend with complexity could be invaluable.

Remember everything about consensus, is about confidence. Much of the challenge will be where the legal limit lies and communicating that clearly - an authority voice on hand who does deliver would be great. For the right international advice, I would push for 100%; for local to Asia - if he's someone who can also speak + 1 languages then 50% perhaps. Everyone underestimates administrative support but it can make an important contribution in avoiding problems.


That said.. to get the votes..

> I trust him.

is not sufficient.. what are his capabilities and experience.

These are important points and I will let Cube give you the details regarding his competency and skills.  I Can, however, say that he has been here in the bitsharestalk forums for quite some time. 

As for the legal environment, it is my hope that we will consider the legal delegate at first to help us at least initially pay for some legal "advisors" who do not actually provide legal "advice", but help us interpret current laws in various jurisdictions in a very conservative manner.  The reason I say this is because it is going to be very difficult to really hire a lawyer to work full time for any single jurisdiction with the 90-95% pay at current marketcap.  This holds true, in fact, at far higher marketcaps. 

With that said, it would do a great deal for BitShares' credibility as a crypto standard to be able to help devs, delegates and users navigate the "legalese" as they move forward and in turn should return far more in valuation as a function of the increased level of confidence and credibility.  The ROI should be valuable...but ultimately I hope to help protect all of you no matter what jurisdiction you live in. 

Thanks for your comments everyone and let us please keep this going.  I want to get this delegate up and running before my own because it is quite frankly more important.  Your input on how we do it is integral.
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline BTSdac

Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2015, 04:14:25 AM »
I think each bts holder have the pay rate to every delegate.
but now most of delegate pay rate is 100 %,  and bts holder only can give yes or no to delegate.
why not give a pay rate that bts holder want to pay the delegate .

BTS pay developer and marketing salary by delegate pay in blockchain, it is a very great way.  but now the pay rate just can turn down cannot turn up.
so many delegate must set 100% pay rate delegate in first, but BTSer cannot know his work for BTS( exclude BM ,toast ,stan and svk, they done great work for BTS )
if we develop a new vote model let delegate not only turn down the pay rate, but turn up the pay rate also.
1.each delegate can set a pay rate same as current vote regular .
2. the different is  Btser should set a delegate pay rate when he vote a delegate.  and default is 3%.
3. if the pay rate vote by BTS stakeholder is high than pay rate set by delegate , this stakeholder voting is effective. as opposite, if the pay rate vote by BTS stakeholder is low than pay rate set by delegate ,this this stakeholder voting is invalid temporarily till lower pay rate set by delegate  , so delegate can set low pay let he have enough poll to top 101.

take a example
if Roy want to run a 100% pay rate delegate , some people think Roy is  worth for 100% pay rate ,but other people think ROY run a  50% pay rate delegate is OK . so there is  5% poll vote Roy as  100% pay rate , and  5% poll vote Roy as 50% pay rate. , so there is only 5% poll is effective. other 5% poll is ineffective because the pay rate vote by BTS stakeholder is lower than Roy set .

and now in BTS if delegate want to been in top 101 ,he must have  6% poll .
so Roy can turn down his delegate pay rate to 50%,  so his all pole is effective . he can been in top 101
three months pass. Roy do very good job for BTS . many people vote he as 100% pay rate delegate . there have 10 % poll vote Roy as 100% delegate in all , then Roy turn up his delegate pay rate to  100%.
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Offline cube

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Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2015, 05:09:12 AM »
I like this idea.  I'm going to contact Cube so he can play a bigger role.  Just so everyone knows, I would be wanting to have at least some kind of multisig for the funds to be released, so he would also be setting that up. 

As for the pay rate being higher, I am trying to work on getting the pay rate for the techs to be higher, on average, because I think it is better for DPOS based chains as a whole if techs do not have to run multiple delegates to sustain their operations and pay the bills.  Ultimately, I think we should focus on tech delegates only being allowed to run 1 delegate per chain. 


Good due diligence is as important as devs and marketing... but perhaps there needs to be something specific to work on. In this environment the context might be defined by legislators. If Cube has an international awareness; experience; and capability to be a major authority voice, then having someone up to speed that can help BitShares contend with complexity could be invaluable.

Remember everything about consensus, is about confidence. Much of the challenge will be where the legal limit lies and communicating that clearly - an authority voice on hand who does deliver would be great. For the right international advice, I would push for 100%; for local to Asia - if he's someone who can also speak + 1 languages then 50% perhaps. Everyone underestimates administrative support but it can make an important contribution in avoiding problems.


That said.. to get the votes..

> I trust him.

is not sufficient.. what are his capabilities and experience.

These are important points and I will let Cube give you the details regarding his competency and skills.  I Can, however, say that he has been here in the bitsharestalk forums for quite some time. 

As for the legal environment, it is my hope that we will consider the legal delegate at first to help us at least initially pay for some legal "advisors" who do not actually provide legal "advice", but help us interpret current laws in various jurisdictions in a very conservative manner.  The reason I say this is because it is going to be very difficult to really hire a lawyer to work full time for any single jurisdiction with the 90-95% pay at current marketcap.  This holds true, in fact, at far higher marketcaps. 

With that said, it would do a great deal for BitShares' credibility as a crypto standard to be able to help devs, delegates and users navigate the "legalese" as they move forward and in turn should return far more in valuation as a function of the increased level of confidence and credibility.  The ROI should be valuable...but ultimately I hope to help protect all of you no matter what jurisdiction you live in. 

Thanks for your comments everyone and let us please keep this going.  I want to get this delegate up and running before my own because it is quite frankly more important.  Your input on how we do it is integral.

Thanks to Fuzzy for introducing me to the concept of a Legal Delegate.  I think it is a very worthwhile thing to do to protect the bitshare community.  Fuzzy is running the Legal Delegate and I would love to support him on that.

A bit more of my technical skill background :-

I am a IT consultant cum project manager by profession.  I started as a developer and a system admin before moving on to a sys analyst, senior analyst  and then the project manager role.  My IT profession and experiences are over 20 years.  I am one of the team members responsible for the release of PTS DPOS.  I detailed my interest in crypto here  - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8204.msg107400#msg107400.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 05:14:12 AM by cube »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Legal Delegate Update and Poll
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2015, 06:00:54 AM »
I think each bts holder have the pay rate to every delegate.
but now most of delegate pay rate is 100 %,  and bts holder only can give yes or no to delegate.
why not give a pay rate that bts holder want to pay the delegate .

BTS pay developer and marketing salary by delegate pay in blockchain, it is a very great way.  but now the pay rate just can turn down cannot turn up.
so many delegate must set 100% pay rate delegate in first, but BTSer cannot know his work for BTS( exclude BM ,toast ,stan and svk, they done great work for BTS )
if we develop a new vote model let delegate not only turn down the pay rate, but turn up the pay rate also.
1.each delegate can set a pay rate same as current vote regular .
2. the different is  Btser should set a delegate pay rate when he vote a delegate.  and default is 3%.
3. if the pay rate vote by BTS stakeholder is high than pay rate set by delegate , this stakeholder voting is effective. as opposite, if the pay rate vote by BTS stakeholder is low than pay rate set by delegate ,this this stakeholder voting is invalid temporarily till lower pay rate set by delegate  , so delegate can set low pay let he have enough poll to top 101.

take a example
if Roy want to run a 100% pay rate delegate , some people think Roy is  worth for 100% pay rate ,but other people think ROY run a  50% pay rate delegate is OK . so there is  5% poll vote Roy as  100% pay rate , and  5% poll vote Roy as 50% pay rate. , so there is only 5% poll is effective. other 5% poll is ineffective because the pay rate vote by BTS stakeholder is lower than Roy set .

and now in BTS if delegate want to been in top 101 ,he must have  6% poll .
so Roy can turn down his delegate pay rate to 50%,  so his all pole is effective . he can been in top 101
three months pass. Roy do very good job for BTS . many people vote he as 100% pay rate delegate . there have 10 % poll vote Roy as 100% delegate in all , then Roy turn up his delegate pay rate to  100%.

I actually think this is not a bad idea for the future.  Being that I am not a developer here and work to help ensure the community has access to developers who sharedrop on them (and vice versa) that is out of my hands.  However, I think it is a valid point to bring up in a hangout at some point and to talk about on the forums.  :)
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

 

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