Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist  (Read 357 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jae208

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
    • View Profile
Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« on: January 15, 2015, 08:21:36 AM »

This guy is basically saying what Ray Kurzweil and others have said before.

Computers that can think, write, and learn faster than what humans are capable of. Rise of the machines?

 

I can see how these computers (AI?) can lead to a world of abundance. I can also see how this will flip everything we think we know about economics upside down.


These deep learning algorithms, as of just last month (December 2014) became capable of replacing 80% of intellectual jobs. The majority of jobs in developed nations are intellectual.

"The better computers get at intellectual activities, the more they can build better computers to be better at intellectual capabilities"

Intelligence explosion?


So what do we do when humans can't compete with the superior intelligence of computers? What do we do when a computer can write better software than you, write a better poem, or diagnose sick people better than any physician on Earth?


The guy has some suggestions at the end, one of them being universal income. However, most would say that that is communism/socialism/marxism and be vehemently against it.


Here is the video. Very interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4kyRyKyOpo
http://bitsharestutorials.com A work in progress
Subscribe to the Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/BitsharesTutorials

Offline CLains

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2606
    • View Profile
  • BTS: clains
Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 11:27:01 AM »
Yeah I was just working with perceptual psychology in my master thesis and it turns out what they are discovering there are general deep learning principles that are replicated across the entire outer sheet of our brain called the neocortex, which is responsible for pretty much all our higher intelligence as it is just a giant surface of pattern-recognition material. The rise of perceptual pattern-recognition software able to outdo humans on a wide variety of perceptual tasks really signals the end of our dominant position as the most intelligent entities on earth. This may seem counter-intuitive, as one might think "what about action," "what about setting goals," "what about language," etc. but pretty much all of these functions are primarily served by the same pattern-recognition material that makes our common sense perceptual abilities so difficult to replicate on a machine.

Even consciousness is a function of this pattern-recognition material. For instance, in perception consciousness is integrated information that is generated over and beyond the information generated by the parts in the perceptual, pattern-recognition hierarchy that takes sensory stimuli as input. Through the combination of fine-grained particular information about say an object, we also can see the conceptual unity of the object as a classified sequence of patterns; this makes it impossible to even in principle separate the lower and higher information-content which creates a novel content (in the universe!) that is expressed in consciousness.

Offline liondani

Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 11:43:19 AM »
Yeah I was just working with perceptual psychology in my master thesis and it turns out what they are discovering there are general deep learning principles that are replicated across the entire outer sheet of our brain called the neocortex, which is responsible for pretty much all our higher intelligence as it is just a giant surface of pattern-recognition material. The rise of perceptual pattern-recognition software able to outdo humans on a wide variety of perceptual tasks really signals the end of our dominant position as the most intelligent entities on earth. This may seem counter-intuitive, as one might think "what about action," "what about setting goals," "what about language," etc. but pretty much all of these functions are primarily served by the same pattern-recognition material that makes our common sense perceptual abilities so difficult to replicate on a machine.

Even consciousness is a function of this pattern-recognition material. For instance, in perception consciousness is integrated information that is generated over and beyond the information generated by the parts in the perceptual, pattern-recognition hierarchy that takes sensory stimuli as input. Through the combination of fine-grained particular information about say an object, we also can see the conceptual unity of the object as a classified sequence of patterns; this makes it impossible to even in principle separate the lower and higher information-content which creates a novel content (in the universe!) that is expressed in consciousness.

If I would not see your name, I would report it as a SPAM to the moderators  :P
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline CLains

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2606
    • View Profile
  • BTS: clains
Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 01:00:07 PM »
Rofl, I studied this shit though look at chapter 4 in my master thesis, I went all out still aced it. Speculative as f but it's been 10 years now since I read "on intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins as an 18 year old, and I see all the stars aligning and most people just stare into the ground, so I just say f it and lay it out there for those with ears.. Same as with crypto, nobody understands what is happening, BTC is crashing people think it's the end nobody even knows what a DAC is.

Offline liondani

Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 01:15:58 PM »
Rofl, I studied this shit though look at chapter 4 in my master thesis, I went all out still aced it.

 +5% +5% +5%

can you maybe make something easier? (specially for you)
maybe a new/advanced version of "BitShares 101 bla,bla,bla" digital book / pdf. but with 101 pages instead of about 60 ?  :)
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline theoretical

Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 06:35:31 PM »

It would be nice to have a utopia where robots can produce enough food / clothing / shelter / infrastructure for everybody to live without anybody having to work.

But there are two problems:

- How do we deal with the inevitable economic disruption of intermediate states between the status quo (~90%+ of the population has to work) and the end game (~0% of the population has to work).  When, say, ~50% of the population has to work, how do we determine which 50% ends up working without creating a class divide that tears society apart?

- Are we really sure that a utopia is the inevitable outcome of superintelligent machines?  Since having resources is an instrumental goal that is a useful stepping stone to many different final goals, what would keep superintelligent machines from appropriating for their own ends resources humanity needs to live?  Eliezer Yudkowsky, a person who has thought a lot about this issue, summarizes it as follows:  "The AI does not hate you, nor does it love you, but you are made of atoms it can use for something else."
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline jae208

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 07:49:05 AM »
Yeah I was just working with perceptual psychology in my master thesis and it turns out what they are discovering there are general deep learning principles that are replicated across the entire outer sheet of our brain called the neocortex, which is responsible for pretty much all our higher intelligence as it is just a giant surface of pattern-recognition material. The rise of perceptual pattern-recognition software able to outdo humans on a wide variety of perceptual tasks really signals the end of our dominant position as the most intelligent entities on earth. This may seem counter-intuitive, as one might think "what about action," "what about setting goals," "what about language," etc. but pretty much all of these functions are primarily served by the same pattern-recognition material that makes our common sense perceptual abilities so difficult to replicate on a machine.

Even consciousness is a function of this pattern-recognition material. For instance, in perception consciousness is integrated information that is generated over and beyond the information generated by the parts in the perceptual, pattern-recognition hierarchy that takes sensory stimuli as input. Through the combination of fine-grained particular information about say an object, we also can see the conceptual unity of the object as a classified sequence of patterns; this makes it impossible to even in principle separate the lower and higher information-content which creates a novel content (in the universe!) that is expressed in consciousness.


Would you say that the neocortex is what separates us from other animals, particularly other mammals?

I don't know if this is accurate, maybe you can tell me, but I once read that the difference between humans and Chimpanzees is that we have a larger neocortex than they do. Apparently, human neocortex and Chimpanzee neocortex is exactly the same we just have more of it and it is this larger neocortex combined with our thumbs that allowed us to build tools, language and modern civilization.


Does this sort of explain what you think about conscientiousness?

"Following a long line of other thinkers in psychology and computer science, we conceive intelligence as the ability to achieve complex goals in complex environments. Even complexity itself has to do with patterns. Something is “complex” if it has a lot of patterns in it.

A “mind” is a collection of patterns for effectively recognizing patterns. Most importantly, a mind needs to recognize patterns about what actions are most likely to achieve its goals.

The phenomenal self is a big pattern, and what makes a mind really intelligent is its ability to continually recognize this pattern — the phenomenal self in itself."


Read that from here http://www.kurzweilai.net/we-could-get-to-the-singularity-in-ten-years

It was a little hard for me to wrap my mind around what you wrote. :)  It is very very interesting stuff.
http://bitsharestutorials.com A work in progress
Subscribe to the Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/BitsharesTutorials

Offline jae208

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Basic Income? Oh no that's Marxist
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 08:25:58 AM »

It would be nice to have a utopia where robots can produce enough food / clothing / shelter / infrastructure for everybody to live without anybody having to work.

But there are two problems:

- How do we deal with the inevitable economic disruption of intermediate states between the status quo (~90%+ of the population has to work) and the end game (~0% of the population has to work).  When, say, ~50% of the population has to work, how do we determine which 50% ends up working without creating a class divide that tears society apart?



- Are we really sure that a utopia is the inevitable outcome of superintelligent machines?  Since having resources is an instrumental goal that is a useful stepping stone to many different final goals, what would keep superintelligent machines from appropriating for their own ends resources humanity needs to live?  Eliezer Yudkowsky, a person who has thought a lot about this issue, summarizes it as follows:  "The AI does not hate you, nor does it love you, but you are made of atoms it can use for something else."


Greater class divide than what currently exists? Don't we have greater class divide right now then at any point in recent history? And it isn't caused by people not working but rather by 84 people that have trillions in wealth.

I read that in the United States there are millions (I think it was like 40 million or so don't remember the exact number) of people that work in the transportation sector as truck drivers, bus drivers you name it.

We also have Deep learning algorithms (AI or machine learning whatever you want to call it) that are capable of driving vehicles better than humans can. Google self driving car is one example of such technology. So just with this one application of deep learning, millions of people lose their jobs and in the process millions of products become cheaper because you no longer have to worry about paying a salary to workers in the transportation sector.

I think the basic needs of people like food, shelter, clothing, education etc. will be met sooner than we think. I think what will happen is that technology will displace many workers very fast in all industries and everyone's basic needs will basically be free. If it is not free it'll probably be 'subsidized' by basic income until humans aren't need and stuff becomes free.

There is an entire universe to explore for resources. There is no need for a super intelligence to stay on Earth. I think a super intelligence would probably be more empathetic to life on Earth and not exploit everything for its own personal gain. Even us humans have nature reserves where we aren't allowed to exploit the resources there for personal gain.

This is probably going to step on some toes but I'll say it anyways because I think it is probably true. People that tend to identify as politically liberal tend to be more empathetic towards other people and other animals. That is why PETA exists for example to protect animals from cruelty.

Also, people that identify as liberal tend to have higher intelligence on average. See the connection? Greater intelligence greater empathy. I think a super intelligent being would look at modern day humans and call us savages.
http://bitsharestutorials.com A work in progress
Subscribe to the Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/BitsharesTutorials

 

Google+