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Offline clayop

What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« on: January 21, 2015, 01:17:59 AM »

With 11% of stake, I can obtain about 65 delegate positions. If I attempt to use these 65 delegates maliciously to make profit, what happens? I'm asking because many people keep asking me about this and I cannot fully understand this process.

Thanks in advance
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Offline BTSdac

Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 01:26:10 AM »
With 11% of stake, I can obtain about 65 delegate positions. If I attempt to use these 65 delegates maliciously to make profit, what happens? I'm asking because many people keep asking me about this and I cannot fully understand this process.

Thanks in advance
we should consider how to encourage people to vote more.
 
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Offline xeroc

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2015, 08:40:54 AM »
It's essentially a 51%-attack of the "total voting-stake" ..
countermeasure, as BTSdac stated, would be to increase the "total voting-stake" by encouraging people to vote
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2015, 08:52:32 AM »
With 11% of stake, I can obtain about 65 delegate positions. If I attempt to use these 65 delegates maliciously to make profit, what happens? I'm asking because many people keep asking me about this and I cannot fully understand this process.

Thanks in advance

You mean like, what if someone put a gun to Bytemaster's head who controls 15% of the supply? :)

Offline svk

Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2015, 08:55:00 AM »
With 11% of stake, I can obtain about 65 delegate positions. If I attempt to use these 65 delegates maliciously to make profit, what happens? I'm asking because many people keep asking me about this and I cannot fully understand this process.

Thanks in advance

You mean like, what if someone put a gun to Bytemaster's head who controls 15% of the supply? :)

He doesn't control that much though, especially after the severance packages he paid out to the core developers. More like 8% imo..

Edit: From recent voting history I can say BM's current active voting power is only about 5.7%. He may of course control more funds, especially vested funds, but that's what he's been using recently to vote at least.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 09:43:03 AM by svk »
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Offline cube

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2015, 10:25:12 AM »
With 11% of stake, I can obtain about 65 delegate positions. If I attempt to use these 65 delegates maliciously to make profit, what happens? I'm asking because many people keep asking me about this and I cannot fully understand this process.

Thanks in advance

You mean like, what if someone put a gun to Bytemaster's head who controls 15% of the supply? :)

He doesn't control that much though, especially after the severance packages he paid out to the core developers. More like 8% imo..

Edit: From recent voting history I can say BM's current active voting power is only about 5.7%. He may of course control more funds, especially vested funds, but that's what he's been using recently to vote at least.

It means that someone will need a few more guns to control the other devs' heads.
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Offline Frodo

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2015, 11:18:09 AM »
I think a lot of people are currently not voting out of convenience. Once there is a serious attack, that puts their investment at risk they would probably get their sh** together.

Despite that I would expect drastically increased voting participation once there is a more usable wallet and offline transaction signing.

Offline wuyanren

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 11:22:11 AM »
我想,你先有11%的股份再说吧。你拥有11%的股份,还希望垮掉,我觉得你的心态有问题、

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2015, 11:27:21 AM »
The main thing is making cold storage voting safe and easy I think.


Other possible ideas to increase voting..

1. To claim your yield you need to vote.
2. A BTS lottery that requires voting to enter. A lottery can at times get very large which will incentivise people to vote when it does.

Offline heyD

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 11:27:42 AM »
in fact, techically speaking at this moment you don't need 51% of stake to attack BTS, 16% are enough. if you have that much stake you can vote all of your 101 delegates in, which means you take full control of the whole dpos network since right now the delegate which gains most votes is only supported by less than 16% stake. when you do so, you can have all of your delegates disabled block production.

or with a 10% stake you can control over the half of delegates and sign on a alternative "main" chain (?)

yes, I think so. with 10% stake you can control 57 delegates at this moment, then reject all the blocks signed by the rest 44 delegates and also exclude the transactions which don't vote for you. but we are only talking about this technically.

Offline davidpbrown

Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2015, 12:10:38 PM »
我想,你先有11%的股份再说吧。你拥有11%的股份,还希望垮掉,我觉得你的心态有问题、

That's true but then it's peanuts to those existing third parties who might be threatened by BitShares. I don't expect in reality any are so corrupt or feel so threatened that they would launch an attack before it became too expensive for even them but it's worth limiting risks wherever they are.
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Offline Rune

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Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2015, 12:33:52 PM »
An immediate and effective solution to this issue is actually very simple. Malicious delegates will likely be delegates that don't produce blocks or produce blocks and steal 100% of the inflation. Both scenarios are by themselves quite unlikely and not actually that hurtful to BitShares, but most importantly they are easy to detect and it's possible to see what accounts control the stake that voted for them. To ensure the malicious stake doesn't continue ruining things a hard fork can be manually circulated among the community that permanently destroys all the stake that voted for the malicious delegates. BitShares would be back up and running normally quite quickly, and the only person who would really be hurt would be the attacker.


Offline monsterer

Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 01:46:21 PM »
a hard fork can be manually circulated among the community that permanently destroys all the stake that voted for the malicious delegates. BitShares would be back up and running normally quite quickly, and the only person who would really be hurt would be the attacker.

That's a viable solution now, but not when bitshares is at the scale of bitcoin. Can you imagine asking all the businesses running bitcoin clients to all update simultaneously whenever something like this occurs?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: What if I have 11% of BTS and I am malicious?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2015, 01:52:57 PM »
By the time we are the size of bitcoin the cost of the attack will be 300 m usd.   I don't see it happening.  Certainly more expensive than buying all of the btc hash power for a year. 
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