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Offline fuzzy

What are we creating?
« on: January 22, 2015, 05:32:55 AM »

We need to really sit back at some point and ask ourselves if "getting rich" trumps "getting Change".  And I'm not talking about "Change you can Believe In".

I'm talking about change that empowers everyone. 

Cryptocurrency is a technology...and no matter how powerful the protocols and no matter how vast the applications, we should always consider the question:  "Are we changing the paradigm? Or are we Upgrading it?" 

Apparently, Ripple Labs wants to simply do the latter.  Many people will "get rich" investing in Ripple Labs.  In fact, it is pretty much guaranteed that Ripple is going to become a multi-billion dollar technology.  The question is, are they truly Changing the Paradigm?  Or are they simply Upgrading the Old, oppressive system? 

Here is your answer.  Jeeez I dislike posting this crap as much as I do knowing it exists...but it has to be done. 

http://www.coindesk.com/ripples-labs-names-former-obama-advisor-board-directors/
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Offline xiahui135

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What are we creating?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2015, 05:56:44 AM »
Yeah i am also thinking what bitshares want to provide to the world.
Stellar is founded by who founded Ripple. Though it is not that decentralized, it is good solution to the real world.  it is easy for average people to understand what they are doing. They just want to do things like "send USD and receive JPY in any place of the world in seconds" .  It is so easy to understand and attract millions of people join to establish that organization.
Stellar announce they have 3 million users and the number are fast natural growing.   
The goal is described in words that average people can understand, so easy to spread. And the tool is usable. It cost nothing to realize dream for ordinary people.
What is the bitshares goal in one sentence?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 05:59:00 AM by xiahui135 »

Offline bytemaster

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 06:23:52 AM »
Yeah i am also thinking what bitshares want to provide to the world.
Stellar is founded by who founded Ripple. Though it is not that decentralized, it is good solution to the real world.  it is easy for average people to understand what they are doing. They just want to do things like "send USD and receive JPY in any place of the world in seconds" .  It is so easy to understand and attract millions of people join to establish that organization.
Stellar announce they have 3 million users and the number are fast natural growing.   
The goal is described in words that average people can understand, so easy to spread. And the tool is usable. It cost nothing to realize dream for ordinary people.
What is the bitshares goal in one sentence?

To find free market solutions to secure life, liberty, and property.   

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline klosure

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Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 08:18:05 AM »
"Are we changing the paradigm? Or are we Upgrading it?" 

Apparently, Ripple Labs wants to simply do the latter.  Many people will "get rich" investing in Ripple Labs.  In fact, it is pretty much guaranteed that Ripple is going to become a multi-billion dollar technology.  The question is, are they truly Changing the Paradigm?  Or are they simply Upgrading the Old, oppressive system?

Your question is biaised as you assume that change has to be something disruptive in essence and that progressive incremental change isn't "change". If you look around you, most of the change that occurs in every process be it natural or artificial is progressive. If it was not you would probably not be around to witness it. Disruption may be a shorter and expedite path to change but it also comes with a higher risk and higher cost and is likely to kill the patient as it cures the disease. History is sprinkled with disruptive change: revolutions, wars, mass extinction. Each time, the disruption shed unbelievable amounts of blood, pretty much totally resetted the system it was supposed to improve. Is that really what we want?

The change we are talking about here is about taking the power away from the state and giving it back to the people, globally. This is a death sentence for the state wordwide. It is  a given that the current power structure won't just let itself killed: it will fight to death to defend its ground with all the power it has, and it does have a tremendous power There won't be a revolution without a massive fight between pro-state and anti-state forces, and when I say forces I really mean people. People with families just like you and me. People who are going every day to work genuinely thinking that they are doing their fair part of making the world a better place. Statists and anarchists all the same. Do we really want these people to suffer through a massive disruption that will destroy the economy worldwide and throw our species in generations of suffering to build back from the ashes a better society? Many of us in the cryptoscene are financial industry folks and have indirectly participated to and profited from the corruption of the system. Does that mean that we are bad people individually who are not hoping for a better society?

And it's not only a question of what we want. There is also the question of whether a big-bang paradigm shift is realistically achieveable at all. As I said, the power structure won't let itself killed. It would rather revoke all freedoms, censor or even plain disconnect the Internet rather than letting disruption propagate to a point where it would lose control.

On ther other hand, the change can occur progressively. The same change, with the same results, but executed step by step in a progressive fashion over decades so that by the time the change is complete the power structure will have progressively and painlessly dissolved into the new paradigm without any blood shed. If we can force the state to loosen its grip on the world by slowly boiling it like the proverbial boiling frog, we are sure to win and make the world a better place. Instead of laying waste in the world wide economy, block chain technology if introduced progressively and diplomatically, can trigger a new era of growth as pretty much everything will need to be replaced to fit in the new paradigm which will create massive employment and would make blockchain technology somewhat of a godsend.

From my point of view, Ripple is doing the wisest thing by pursuing progressive change instead of disruption. Instead of going frontal against the establishment like the Bitcoin community is doing and trying to shove through the state and financial industry's throat a win-lose vision of the world where they would go the way of the dodo within a couple of year and be replaced by a bunch of fanatical libertarians, Ripple Labs is projecting an inclusive win-win vision of the world where the state, the financial industry, the software industry and the people at large can work together to build a better and fairer system. Of course, as a result of this vision, the state and the financial industry would survive but they will have lost some of their power and opacity and will have taken the right turn to transform into something better. Ripple is like a trojan horse in the establishment. It spares them the embarassment of having to stick with their ridiculously anticated infrastructure and struggle to catch up on decades of technological progress. But at the same time,  it forces them to open up, endorse blockchain technology, and integrate it at every level of society. The stakeholders of the state and financial industry are no idiots and they know that their boat is doomed, and that blockchain technology is what will sink their boat, but they also understand that Ripple is a lesser evil that will allow the boat to reach the shore as compared to the Bitcoin torpedo, and by the time they reach the shore, they'll have assimilated the idea that their boat sucked anyway.

It's much better to work hand in hand with the state than fight the state, if for any reason because the state is a part of mankind's current paradigm, and we don't want to kill ourselves in the process.

Now, as far as Bitshares is concerned, I believe that it should seek to work hand in hand with Ripple and Ethereum. Ripple Labs is very professional and reasonnable, they are focusing on upgrading money markets, forex, payment and settlements and becoming the interface between the crypto-space and the financial industry. They don't have strong views on other niches that blockchain technology is bound to take over. Although their initial stance was to cover a wide spectrum, they have become reasonable as experience has shown them that 80+ employees is barely enough to chew the payment and forex space alone. The initial plan to integrate contracts in Ripple has turned into a non-profit generic approach to handling contracts: Codius. As the recent news show, they are more than happy to help Ethereum leverage on Codius to handle their Oracles, and it is very likely that this collaboration will pave the way to an ecosystem where Ethereum will be the default trustless contact engine, Ripple the default trustless foreign exchange, money market and payment rails, and the Codius the default external interface to interact with the (non-trustless) outside world.

In that picture, there is a big niche that isn't occupied: equity, commodity and derivatives markets. Indeed, neither Ripple nor Ethereum has any views at the moment to become a decentralized equity / commodity / derivatives exchanges. On the other hand, Bitshares is very ahead of the curve on that side as it already has all the mechanisms in place such as colateral compensation, escrow, margin calls and extrinsic market data acquisition to handle financial mechanisms such as stop orders, short selling and derivative contracts. It's also Bitshares motto to be an equity market where companies could list their stocks. Bitshares even provides the tools for building the companies themselves around a DAC model.

Bitshares really is the right fit for that niche that is left alongside Ripple and Ethereum in tomorrow's real economy. Bitshares already has good relations with Ethereum which itself has good relations with Ripple Labs. It's only up to Bitshares to make a move and see with Ripple Labs people if a collaboration would be possible. Such a collaboration would be immensely beneficial to Bitshares. Instead of wasting time trying to figure how to get gateways and dealing with the massive regulatory headaches that comes with it, Bitshares only needs to interface with Ripple and it will instantly benefit from a sizeable and fast growing network of gateways in many countries and covering many currencies and commodities. It will also gain a lot of liquidity as Ripple liquidity starts to flow in the Bitshares network and into the counterparty-risk free assets that Ripplers can only dream of. Last but not list, being connected to Ripple means being accessible to institutional market makers: not a bad thing to keep bitAssets spreads tight. For end users, being integrated to Ripple means that people will be able to move money between their bank accounts and bitshares in a blink.

The possibility of such a collaboration are limitless: Bitshares can use Ethereum for contracts, Codius for oracles, Ripple to handle cash flows, so that it can concentrate on becoming a kick-ass decentralized securities trading plateform, a voting system, and naming system and a launchpad for all the other DACs.

It's a huge opportunity provided that Bitshares holder are able to step back and look at the big picture objectively and realistically and understand that the state and financial industry aren't going away anyway.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 08:28:40 AM by klosure »

Offline onceuponatime

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 08:51:41 AM »
"Are we changing the paradigm? Or are we Upgrading it?" 

It's a huge opportunity provided that Bitshares holder are able to step back and look at the big picture objectively and realistically and understand that the state and financial industry aren't going away anyway.

You're wrong. They are going away. Because they aren't suited to the new paradigm that is emerging. And we are.

It wasn't the bunny rabbits that killed off the dinosaurs.

Offline klosure

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Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 08:54:37 AM »
"Are we changing the paradigm? Or are we Upgrading it?" 

It's a huge opportunity provided that Bitshares holder are able to step back and look at the big picture objectively and realistically and understand that the state and financial industry aren't going away anyway.

You're wrong. They are going away. Because they aren't suited to the new paradigm that is emerging. And we are.

It wasn't the bunny rabbits that killed off the dinosaurs.
So you think the financial industry is here handling settlements, and suddenly pouf next day they are gone?
Sounds like a plan...

Offline onceuponatime

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 08:56:39 AM »
No. I think we are building something that will make them irrelevant (to us).

Offline klosure

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Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 09:03:32 AM »
No. I think we are building something that will make them irrelevant (to us).
If you plan to live your life in a secluded libertarian community on an atoll in the pacific with a local grassroot economy, you are probably right. But if you expect the world to follow you, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Offline onceuponatime

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 09:09:56 AM »
No. I think we are building something that will make them irrelevant (to us).
If you plan to live your life in a secluded libertarian community on an atoll in the pacific with a local grassroot economy, you are probably right. But if you expect the world to follow you, you are barking up the wrong tree.

As the system that you are so in awe of accelerates in its breakdown (you are paying attention to current events?) I trust that you will be glad of the lifeboats we build.

The Newest Dominoes to Fall from the Swiss Franc Revaluation
http://thewealthwatchman.com/the-newest-dominoes-to-fall-from-the-swiss-franc-revaluation/
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 09:11:49 AM by onceuponatime »

Offline eagleeye

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Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 09:19:23 AM »
"Are we changing the paradigm? Or are we Upgrading it?" 

Apparently, Ripple Labs wants to simply do the latter.  Many people will "get rich" investing in Ripple Labs.  In fact, it is pretty much guaranteed that Ripple is going to become a multi-billion dollar technology.  The question is, are they truly Changing the Paradigm?  Or are they simply Upgrading the Old, oppressive system?

Your question is biaised as you assume that change has to be something disruptive in essence and that progressive incremental change isn't "change". If you look around you, most of the change that occurs in every process be it natural or artificial is progressive. If it was not you would probably not be around to witness it. Disruption may be a shorter and expedite path to change but it also comes with a higher risk and higher cost and is likely to kill the patient as it cures the disease. History is sprinkled with disruptive change: revolutions, wars, mass extinction. Each time, the disruption shed unbelievable amounts of blood, pretty much totally resetted the system it was supposed to improve. Is that really what we want?

The change we are talking about here is about taking the power away from the state and giving it back to the people, globally. This is a death sentence for the state wordwide. It is  a given that the current power structure won't just let itself killed: it will fight to death to defend its ground with all the power it has, and it does have a tremendous power There won't be a revolution without a massive fight between pro-state and anti-state forces, and when I say forces I really mean people. People with families just like you and me. People who are going every day to work genuinely thinking that they are doing their fair part of making the world a better place. Statists and anarchists all the same. Do we really want these people to suffer through a massive disruption that will destroy the economy worldwide and throw our species in generations of suffering to build back from the ashes a better society? Many of us in the cryptoscene are financial industry folks and have indirectly participated to and profited from the corruption of the system. Does that mean that we are bad people individually who are not hoping for a better society?

And it's not only a question of what we want. There is also the question of whether a big-bang paradigm shift is realistically achieveable at all. As I said, the power structure won't let itself killed. It would rather revoke all freedoms, censor or even plain disconnect the Internet rather than letting disruption propagate to a point where it would lose control.

On ther other hand, the change can occur progressively. The same change, with the same results, but executed step by step in a progressive fashion over decades so that by the time the change is complete the power structure will have progressively and painlessly dissolved into the new paradigm without any blood shed. If we can force the state to loosen its grip on the world by slowly boiling it like the proverbial boiling frog, we are sure to win and make the world a better place. Instead of laying waste in the world wide economy, block chain technology if introduced progressively and diplomatically, can trigger a new era of growth as pretty much everything will need to be replaced to fit in the new paradigm which will create massive employment and would make blockchain technology somewhat of a godsend.

From my point of view, Ripple is doing the wisest thing by pursuing progressive change instead of disruption. Instead of going frontal against the establishment like the Bitcoin community is doing and trying to shove through the state and financial industry's throat a win-lose vision of the world where they would go the way of the dodo within a couple of year and be replaced by a bunch of fanatical libertarians, Ripple Labs is projecting an inclusive win-win vision of the world where the state, the financial industry, the software industry and the people at large can work together to build a better and fairer system. Of course, as a result of this vision, the state and the financial industry would survive but they will have lost some of their power and opacity and will have taken the right turn to transform into something better. Ripple is like a trojan horse in the establishment. It spares them the embarassment of having to stick with their ridiculously anticated infrastructure and struggle to catch up on decades of technological progress. But at the same time,  it forces them to open up, endorse blockchain technology, and integrate it at every level of society. The stakeholders of the state and financial industry are no idiots and they know that their boat is doomed, and that blockchain technology is what will sink their boat, but they also understand that Ripple is a lesser evil that will allow the boat to reach the shore as compared to the Bitcoin torpedo, and by the time they reach the shore, they'll have assimilated the idea that their boat sucked anyway.

It's much better to work hand in hand with the state than fight the state, if for any reason because the state is a part of mankind's current paradigm, and we don't want to kill ourselves in the process.

Now, as far as Bitshares is concerned, I believe that it should seek to work hand in hand with Ripple and Ethereum. Ripple Labs is very professional and reasonnable, they are focusing on upgrading money markets, forex, payment and settlements and becoming the interface between the crypto-space and the financial industry. They don't have strong views on other niches that blockchain technology is bound to take over. Although their initial stance was to cover a wide spectrum, they have become reasonable as experience has shown them that 80+ employees is barely enough to chew the payment and forex space alone. The initial plan to integrate contracts in Ripple has turned into a non-profit generic approach to handling contracts: Codius. As the recent news show, they are more than happy to help Ethereum leverage on Codius to handle their Oracles, and it is very likely that this collaboration will pave the way to an ecosystem where Ethereum will be the default trustless contact engine, Ripple the default trustless foreign exchange, money market and payment rails, and the Codius the default external interface to interact with the (non-trustless) outside world.

In that picture, there is a big niche that isn't occupied: equity, commodity and derivatives markets. Indeed, neither Ripple nor Ethereum has any views at the moment to become a decentralized equity / commodity / derivatives exchanges. On the other hand, Bitshares is very ahead of the curve on that side as it already has all the mechanisms in place such as colateral compensation, escrow, margin calls and extrinsic market data acquisition to handle financial mechanisms such as stop orders, short selling and derivative contracts. It's also Bitshares motto to be an equity market where companies could list their stocks. Bitshares even provides the tools for building the companies themselves around a DAC model.

Bitshares really is the right fit for that niche that is left alongside Ripple and Ethereum in tomorrow's real economy. Bitshares already has good relations with Ethereum which itself has good relations with Ripple Labs. It's only up to Bitshares to make a move and see with Ripple Labs people if a collaboration would be possible. Such a collaboration would be immensely beneficial to Bitshares. Instead of wasting time trying to figure how to get gateways and dealing with the massive regulatory headaches that comes with it, Bitshares only needs to interface with Ripple and it will instantly benefit from a sizeable and fast growing network of gateways in many countries and covering many currencies and commodities. It will also gain a lot of liquidity as Ripple liquidity starts to flow in the Bitshares network and into the counterparty-risk free assets that Ripplers can only dream of. Last but not list, being connected to Ripple means being accessible to institutional market makers: not a bad thing to keep bitAssets spreads tight. For end users, being integrated to Ripple means that people will be able to move money between their bank accounts and bitshares in a blink.

The possibility of such a collaboration are limitless: Bitshares can use Ethereum for contracts, Codius for oracles, Ripple to handle cash flows, so that it can concentrate on becoming a kick-ass decentralized securities trading plateform, a voting system, and naming system and a launchpad for all the other DACs.

It's a huge opportunity provided that Bitshares holder are able to step back and look at the big picture objectively and realistically and understand that the state and financial industry aren't going away anyway.

This is the best post ive ever seen on bitsharestalk other then that decentralized exchange guy.  I would give 3 +5 +5 +5 but im on the iphone

Offline klosure

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Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 09:48:33 AM »
No. I think we are building something that will make them irrelevant (to us).
If you plan to live your life in a secluded libertarian community on an atoll in the pacific with a local grassroot economy, you are probably right. But if you expect the world to follow you, you are barking up the wrong tree.

As the system that you are so in awe of accelerates in its breakdown (you are paying attention to current events?) I trust that you will be glad of the lifeboats we build.

The Newest Dominoes to Fall from the Swiss Franc Revaluation
http://thewealthwatchman.com/the-newest-dominoes-to-fall-from-the-swiss-franc-revaluation/
Nothing new here, the fact the current system is corrupted is a base hypothesis.

The question here is not how corrupt the current system is but how realistic it is to believe that a bunch of crypto nerds can replace the world power structure just because they think they can do better and keep away from the zone of influence the millions of people who are currently running the show... Show me the traders who will bring liquidity and keep in sync your crypto-markets! Ooops, wallstreet people all around. I thought you were supposed to get rid of the finance industry :P.

You seem to think of the financial industry and the state as individual super villains that can exist one day and cease to exist the next day. That's not realistic. The financial industry and the state are groups of people, tens or hundreds of millions of them, with a huge influence and connections to pretty much every human on earth, and they are the only ones who know shit about finance and public administration. Whether you like it or not they are not going away, unless of course you are planning on going totalitarian and send them to the gulag.

You need people to run things. You can rename the finance industry the crypto-finance industry and rename the state the crypto-state just so that you can have your way, but you will still have the same people around with their old habits and old way of thinking and they will take time to adjust to a new paradigm and you'll have to convince them that blockchain technology is progress, reassure them that they are not getting left behind, stage everything, train people, make step-by-step migrations and so on and so forth.

The bottom line is: if you are going to keep the financial industry and state in place because you can't replace them with a very little script, convince them that blockchain techno is good, and motivate them to move on, you'd better bet realistic about it in first place, and work with them to transition the finance industry and the state to the right paradigm rather than attempt to take over by force which they won't let you do anyway.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 09:57:42 AM by klosure »

Offline fuzzy

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 10:02:57 AM »
1st.  Is it safe to say that drastic change cannot occur without killing all of us?  Drastic change occurred with the beginnings of the internet.  It was not long after that the internet became a store of informational wealth unlike any we have ever seen before.  It was only when governmental regulation came in that we started seeing the beginnings of an implementation based entirely on psychotic levels of fear, which slowly (Progressively) turned into a system of passive dominance over the entirety of society.  Now who guards the guardians?

Has Linux killed people because it enables anyone to build their own OS from kernel?  Linux has the potential to be disruptive, but humanity has the ability to create and adapt far more quickly than you give it credit for.  We can and have very quickly adapted in many instances throughout history without the inclusion of "the elite" to disruptive change and have built some amazing marvels based on decentralized collaboration and Self-Governance.  In fact the Early America is a perfect example of this.   

Sometimes when a person gets Cancer, the Tumor needs cut out.  Yes it is disruptive to the body's systems, but it is necessary because otherwise it can metastasize.  This is not the time for "Progressive" change...aka giving the power back to the old world elite as opposed to realizing our own power to change things for the better.     

2nd.
Quote
From my point of view, Ripple is doing the wisest thing by pursuing progressive change instead of disruption. Instead of going frontal against the establishment like the Bitcoin community is doing and trying to shove through the state and financial industry's throat a win-lose vision of the world where they would go the way of the dodo within a couple of year and be replaced by a bunch of fanatical libertarians, a)Ripple Labs is projecting an inclusive win-win vision of the world where the state, the financial industry, the software industry and the people at large can work together to build a better and fairer system. b)Of course, as a result of this vision, the state and the financial industry would survive but they will have lost some of their power and opacity and will have taken the right turn to transform into something better. c)Ripple is like a trojan horse in the establishment.

a) Is this why the token's original issuance was so centralized?  Is this why the same small group who initially started the network are the only ones who can vote new members into their network based on "reputation"?  Let's call it like it really is.  An exclusive blockchain of IOU's that were initially given almost totally to a very exclusive group of people.  The only "win-win" is when those original exclusive members decide to give power to another group of people.  What is worse?  No matter what the holders of XRP think about it, there is literally nothing they can do but sell.  If the old-world elites keep printing money from their free printing press, they can pump the value of Ripple indefinitely until the masses go into tulip frenzy buying it.  And if the Fed could produce 16 Trillion Dollars in a Secret Slush Fund to Prop Up their Ponzi, do you really think they are worried about being able to keep something like Ripple stable after the frenzy bubble bursts? 

b) Blockchain technology has the potential to track EVERY transaction a person makes.  Never before in history was this possible. With the "elite" from the old paradigm at the helm of Ripple Labs' roll-out, to say that they will not use this against us is insanity.  Furthermore, to call a bunch of Libertarian-leaning citizens "fanatical" isn't biased??
You can call it "fanatical libertarian"ism if you want, but facts are facts.  I don't know what world you are living in, but I live in one where all the common person's natural rights have been stolen from them with the stroke of a pen all in the name of a threat statistically less dangerous than falling in the shower--"terrorism".  If they spy on us in everything we do through in the current system...implementing something like Ripple is a trojan horse against the people.  Not the other way around. 

c) To track a person's transactions is to track their most intimate interactions...which is a very dangerous road to walk.  Issuing a substantial majority of a blockchain's tokens to a small, exclusive team of individuals who then use their leverage as a means by which they can gain entry into the "New Guard" is by no means a trojan horse for the establishment. 

Of course, this is a good time to tell everyone they should be careful of something called "COINTELPRO".  Klosure you are fooling no one.  Who are you really, btw? 

If Ripple will make us more free and take power away from the "Elites'" openly-stated objectives then Google and the internet of today would have done it. Guess what happened to Google.  Attending Illegal Summits on "World Governance"...


3rd 
Quote
Now, as far as Bitshares is concerned, I believe that it should seek to work hand in hand with Ripple and Ethereum. Ripple Labs is very professional and reasonnable, they are focusing on upgrading money markets, forex, payment and settlements and becoming the interface between the crypto-space and the financial industry. They don't have strong views on other niches that blockchain technology is bound to take over. Although their initial stance was to cover a wide spectrum, they have become reasonable as experience has shown them that 80+ employees is barely enough to chew the payment and forex space alone. The initial plan to integrate contracts in Ripple has turned into a non-profit generic approach to handling contracts: Codius. As the recent news show, they are more than happy to help Ethereum leverage on Codius to handle their Oracles, and it is very likely that this collaboration will pave the way to an ecosystem where Ethereum will be the default trustless contact engine, Ripple the default trustless foreign exchange, money market and payment rails, and the Codius the default external interface to interact with the (non-trustless) outside world.

Yep.  This would be very very profitable for all parties.  It would also be very interesting to see BitShares become 1000's of chains that compete against both Ripple (Obama's ex-advisor) and Ethereum (Goldman Sachs) on every level because BitShares decided to be the only chain that invited competition in the space rather than shutting it out. 

It is hard to say what the heck Ethereum will really look like on a technical level at this point because all they ever do is talk theory to produce hype. 


4) 3D printing, Autonomous Local Agriculture and a list of other technologies too long to cover here are coming and the only way that the "elite" can control it is to get the first-mover's advantage and ensure they use their Dark Funds to secretly prop up any and all foundational Transactional Technologies whose tech is potentially beneficial to them and attempt to break confidence in potential challengers to their systems. 

BitShares has the potential to be the challenger to these systems by building a completely decentralized infrastructure.  The only thing I agree with you on is that what I am proposing is far slower   



However, I must say one thing---the general population will not care about any of my points.  They will see the price of blockchain technologies growing substantially and will sell out for a temporary hit of the cocaine-like sensations of "choosing a winner before it wins".  Ripple and Ethereum will both be on that list. 

I personally am biased, Klosure, because I believe people do not need you or any other individual who is afraid of the consequences of those who are bold enough to know they can change the world and to do it.  Yes, Ripple will do well.  Ethereum will even do well.  I'm simply saying when we are ready, we will not need Ripple or Ethereum.  They will need us.  Unfortunately it seems we (as in society...not BitShares and its many blossoms) are starting to go in the wrong direction. 


« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 10:38:47 AM by fuzzy »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 10:11:45 AM »

The bottom line is: if you are going to keep the financial industry and state in place because you can't replace them with a very little script, convince them that blockchain techno is good, and motivate them to move on, you'd better bet realistic about it in first place, and work with them to transition the finance industry and the state to the right paradigm rather than attempt to take over by force which they won't let you do anyway.

Change will come in multiple iterations of blocktech.  People will be allowed to freely float from one blockchain nation to the next.  You are looking at BitShares only from the DACompany-centric viewpoint.  We are looking at it from the DACommunity-Centric and DACountry perspective as well.  It is no doubt that Ripple (and Stellar) will do this more quickly than us because up to approximately 4 weeks ago, we had absolutely no marketing reach.  A media blackout incurred by most all Blockchain-Centric News outlets didn't help.  I have a theory about why, but I don't want to seem like a lunatic "libertarian".  I prefer to think of myself as a person who cares about others and believes we are capable of remaking ourselves to adapt to the world around us, even in times of great change...and I know I am by far not alone in this. 

In fact I believe the disruptive change is sometimes necessary to shake a society and a people out of addiction to destructive habits.  Where you think of "disruptive" as being synonymous with Chaos and total Discord...I see opportunity and motivation for a people to truly evolve. 


No. I think we are building something that will make them irrelevant (to us).
If you plan to live your life in a secluded libertarian community on an atoll in the pacific with a local grassroot economy, you are probably right. But if you expect the world to follow you, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Now this is the one place I can actually agree with you Klosure. 

Now that I know what you are saying...I have to (sadly) agree.  It doesn't mean I won't bang my head against the wall hoping I'm proven wrong though. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 10:14:54 AM by fuzzy »
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Offline davidpbrown

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 10:18:05 AM »
From my point of view, Ripple is doing the wisest thing by pursuing progressive change instead of disruption.

No. Ripple is taking the easiest path to a quick profit. Its lazy and that is not the better route to progress.
That post looks like a bed time story for Ripple execs.. it's nonsense.

When you invent the internet, you do not work alongside existing alternates; you replace them.
When you invent blockchain technology, you do not work alongside existing alternate trust mechanisms; you replace them. Blockchain technology provides a way to replace third party authority; it provides a route to efficiency savings and a way to do trade.

For all the naive idealists within blockchain space - and granted there are a lot, it is still the case that X is better than Y. The challenge is not for us to compromise, it is for the rest of the world to adapt with us or become redundant. Same with the internet more widely, merchants offline need to take advantage of their opportunity or lose it.

You do not progress by doing the same as you did before.. which is what Ripple's big idea seems to be. I expect they will either fade in 5-6 years or have evolved into real blockchain technology. the lazy option is for Ripple to just adopt what BitShares is doing - the precursor to which is the suggestion that BitShares should work with Ripple!
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Offline fuzzy

Re: What are we creating?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 10:33:22 AM »
From my point of view, Ripple is doing the wisest thing by pursuing progressive change instead of disruption.

No. Ripple is taking the easiest path to a quick profit. Its lazy and that is not the better route to progress.
That post looks like a bed time story for Ripple execs.. it's nonsense.

When you invent the internet, you do not work alongside existing alternates; you replace them.
When you invent blockchain technology, you do not work alongside existing alternate trust mechanisms; you replace them. Blockchain technology provides a way to replace third party authority; it provides a route to efficiency savings and a way to do trade.

For all the naive idealists within blockchain space - and granted there are a lot, it is still the case that X is better than Y. The challenge is not for us to compromise, it is for the rest of the world to adapt with us or become redundant. Same with the internet more widely, merchants offline need to take advantage of their opportunity or lose it.

You do not progress by doing the same as you did before.. which is what Ripple's big idea seems to be. I expect they will either fade in 5-6 years or have evolved into real blockchain technology. the lazy option is for Ripple to just adopt what BitShares is doing - the precursor to which is the suggestion that BitShares should work with Ripple!

Oh god this is why I love this community so much I can never leave it even in the most frustrating times...
BROWNIE==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
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