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Offline klosure

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DAC management tools
« on: February 08, 2015, 05:37:07 AM »

I'll take the opportunity of teenagecheese's post Overall Plan and Schedule to broaden and deepen the topic one notch further: BitShares has the ambition of providing a turn-key solution to build fully functioning decentralized autonomous corporations, but the BitShares DAC itself is pretty far from the level of quality and structure an actual corporation should have. Every corporation has got some elementary tools to manage calandar, progress, objectives, organizational tree, meetings and storage of key information such as meeting minutes etc.

Given it's ambitions, shouldn't BitShares start building such intra-net like features in the client? There was once a project named Keyhotee that could have been the right place to start that intra-net like management layer. What happened to that project? Someone suggested using RetroShare as a base to revive this project. Where are the excited conversations about that?

Are you, BitShares shareholders, happy to know that people are getting actively paid by share dilution, but there is currently no structure in place to provide transparency and accountability?

I fully concur to teenagecheese's feeling in the other thread. A few weeks ago I decided to disvest some of my investments and take a stake in BitShares. After following the DAC closely for a few weeks, my overal feeling is that although the technology has a huge potential, there is no mechanism in place to ensure that things are being managed properly. It really feels like I invested in a startup run by some bunch of bright young grads with a great idea but no management skills and no experience of how to manage a corporation. I'll give it some time, but if I still feel in a few quarters that I have no idea what my money is being used for and there is no visible resources put in improving transarency an management, I will probably just move my money somewhere else and wait for BitShares to put their act together and live up to its ambition of being an actual corporation.

Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 06:04:54 AM »
I'll take the opportunity of teenagecheese's post Overall Plan and Schedule to broaden and deepen the topic one notch further: BitShares has the ambition of providing a turn-key solution to build fully functioning decentralized autonomous corporations, but the BitShares DAC itself is pretty far from the level of quality and structure an actual corporation should have. Every corporation has got some elementary tools to manage calandar, progress, objectives, organizational tree, meetings and storage of key information such as meeting minutes etc.

Given it's ambitions, shouldn't BitShares start building such intra-net like features in the client? There was once a project named Keyhotee that could have been the right place to start that intra-net like management layer. What happened to that project? Someone suggested using RetroShare as a base to revive this project. Where are the excited conversations about that?

Are you, BitShares shareholders, happy to know that people are getting actively paid by share dilution, but there is currently no structure in place to provide transparency and accountability?

I fully concur to teenagecheese's feeling in the other thread. A few weeks ago I decided to disvest some of my investments and take a stake in BitShares. After following the DAC closely for a few weeks, my overal feeling is that although the technology has a huge potential, there is no mechanism in place to ensure that things are being managed properly. It really feels like I invested in a startup run by some bunch of bright young grads with a great idea but no management skills and no experience of how to manage a corporation. I'll give it some time, but if I still feel in a few quarters that I have no idea what my money is being used for and there is no visible resources put in improving transarency an management, I will probably just move my money somewhere else and wait for BitShares to put their act together and live up to its ambition of being an actual corporation.

I don't know if that belongs in the client. Those might be better suited as being something like hosted apps in the delegates perhaps? Just thinking from a technical perspective how you handle decentralization in that.

I don't know.

I don't know.

No I am not happy with that.

You brought up some good points. My answers to your questions don't really help much towards a solution though.
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Offline VoR0220

Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 06:08:51 AM »
You raise a couple very good points. Toast's ideas on proposal based delegates seems to be a step towards a solution to what you describe as a problem. I think it could have a lot of potential to solve these problems you bring up. Unfortunately he has since locked the thread and I believe is further developing his idea.
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Offline arhag

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Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 06:11:45 AM »
...
BitShares has the ambition of providing a turn-key solution to build fully functioning decentralized autonomous corporations, but the BitShares DAC itself is pretty far from the level of quality and structure an actual corporation should have. Every corporation has got some elementary tools to manage calandar, progress, objectives, organizational tree, meetings and storage of key information such as meeting minutes etc.

Given it's ambitions, shouldn't BitShares start building such intra-net like features in the client?

...

Are you, BitShares shareholders, happy to know that people are getting actively paid by share dilution, but there is currently no structure in place to provide transparency and accountability?

I'm all for better tools to organize and provide better transparency and accountability, but not at the cost of taking precious developer resources away from getting what is really important done (stable full client with 1.0 features complete, working light wallet eventually with the exchange functionality also included, integrated BitShares/Bitcoin light wallet that we can start marketing to Bitcoiners, etc.). So, if someone who otherwise would not be useful for development of the BitShares client wants to get started on these tools and even create a thorough delegate proposal for it, then I say go for it. But for now, I don't want the core devs distracted by anything else and am willing to deal with the inconvenient management and organizational tools available to us.

Offline VoR0220

Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 06:16:00 AM »
...
BitShares has the ambition of providing a turn-key solution to build fully functioning decentralized autonomous corporations, but the BitShares DAC itself is pretty far from the level of quality and structure an actual corporation should have. Every corporation has got some elementary tools to manage calandar, progress, objectives, organizational tree, meetings and storage of key information such as meeting minutes etc.

Given it's ambitions, shouldn't BitShares start building such intra-net like features in the client?

...

Are you, BitShares shareholders, happy to know that people are getting actively paid by share dilution, but there is currently no structure in place to provide transparency and accountability?

I'm all for better tools to organize and provide better transparency and accountability, but not at the cost of taking precious developer resources away from getting what is really important done (stable full client with 1.0 features complete, working light wallet eventually with the exchange functionality also included, integrated BitShares/Bitcoin light wallet that we can start marketing to Bitcoiners, etc.). So, if someone who otherwise would not be useful for development of the BitShares client wants to get started on these tools and even create a thorough delegate proposal for it, then I say go for it. But for now, I don't want the core devs distracted by anything else and am willing to deal with the inconvenient management and organizational tools available to us.
t

Surely arhag, you can see what I'm getting at when I say that I think toast's proposal based delegate system could in fact be quite the solution to these problems, do you not?
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Offline teenagecheese

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Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 06:22:52 AM »
I'll take the opportunity of teenagecheese's post Overall Plan and Schedule to broaden and deepen the topic one notch further: BitShares has the ambition of providing a turn-key solution to build fully functioning decentralized autonomous corporations, but the BitShares DAC itself is pretty far from the level of quality and structure an actual corporation should have. Every corporation has got some elementary tools to manage calandar, progress, objectives, organizational tree, meetings and storage of key information such as meeting minutes etc.

Given it's ambitions, shouldn't BitShares start building such intra-net like features in the client? There was once a project named Keyhotee that could have been the right place to start that intra-net like management layer. What happened to that project? Someone suggested using RetroShare as a base to revive this project. Where are the excited conversations about that?

Are you, BitShares shareholders, happy to know that people are getting actively paid by share dilution, but there is currently no structure in place to provide transparency and accountability?

I fully concur to teenagecheese's feeling in the other thread. A few weeks ago I decided to disvest some of my investments and take a stake in BitShares. After following the DAC closely for a few weeks, my overal feeling is that although the technology has a huge potential, there is no mechanism in place to ensure that things are being managed properly. It really feels like I invested in a startup run by some bunch of bright young grads with a great idea but no management skills and no experience of how to manage a corporation. I'll give it some time, but if I still feel in a few quarters that I have no idea what my money is being used for and there is no visible resources put in improving transarency an management, I will probably just move my money somewhere else and wait for BitShares to put their act together and live up to its ambition of being an actual corporation.

Well said. I agree with every point. I especially like the analogy to a real corporation, which we are not acting like. Whether it be in the client or elsewhere, I believe it is critical that this be put in place, and that it can be done while maintaining the cooperative and decentralized nature of bitshares.

Offline arhag

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Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 06:25:45 AM »
Surely arhag, you can see what I'm getting at when I say that I think toast's proposal based delegate system could in fact be quite the solution to these problems, do you not?

I have been fighting for proposals in BitShares for a long time. And even I will say that it is not a huge priority at the moment (getting a usable light wallet out is far more important). As of block 1772200 (this Thursday), we should have the ability (thanks to v0.6.0) at the blockchain level to vote for negative numbers in the delegate slate. This provides a basic foundation to get some rudimentary non-binding proposals. It still won't have any support in the CLI much less GUI. That will take further work.

While I don't think it is a higher priority than some of the other things that need to get done, I would like to see someone like toast add an RPC call to define a set of negative IDs to vote for (perhaps with a priority number) which will fill up any excess space in the delegate slate if the user is voting for less than 111 delegates (meaning voting for delegates get priority over negative IDs). Then I would like to see another call similar to the one he already made for BTS stats, that accumulates the total BTS balance voting for each unique negative ID as of the current head block. These fairly simple additions should be enough to allow users to use the console to adjust their votes for arbitrary negative ints representing proposals (let's not waste resources on GUI for now), and for someone like svk to track this data on bitsharesblocks.com.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:30:05 AM by arhag »

Offline bluebit

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Re: DAC management tools
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 06:53:39 AM »
I think what Bitshares needs is an integrated calendar in the client. In this calendar the delegates can post their projects. A main calendar to see all the projects, and then you can click on a project to go to the delegates calendar page.

For Example: Bitshares TV posts that it will upload on March 1st a new video. People then wait till March 1st, and then check to see if the video is uploaded on youtube or Bitshares TV website. If not, the project is said to be delayed, and shareholders start to get nervous, if after a month or so, nothing happens, shareholders would slowly vote for other delegates that can complete projects.

This way delegates are kept in check. It's up to the current developers to read what I wrote and let us know what they think, but I have not heard anything yet.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:56:15 AM by bluebit »
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