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Offline klosure

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Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« on: February 16, 2015, 07:30:24 AM »

Creating a new thread to discuss this opportunity.

BTER is going to fail if not recapitalized ugently. The consequences for BitShares would be dire.
But we can save it by creating a BTER DAC and doing a crowdsale of its stake. The benefits for Bitshares are enormous. See discussion below.

Their business is potentially worth much more than 7170 BTC and they would have no problem raising that much from a VC. 2M USD is pocket change for a VC. As a long time partner of BTER Bitshares is in a great position to close a deal first but we shouldn't ruin that opportunity by making a low ball offer.

A share dilution to support shorting 7170 bitBTC won't even affect the BTS price since the created BTS will be immediately locked in as collateral so it won't inflate the money supply.

It will need a 10% inflation at the current prices. the main issue though would be about running it. Will we be getting competent delegates to run it? BitShares is a decentralized movement and running an exchange directly doesn't seem to fit well, especially since we believe that if we are successful we won't need actual centralized exchanges.

How much of licensing they have anyway? CNY is possible through tradebts, and I doubt Bter has any USD licenses.
We can create a new DAC with 1:1 mapping of stake to real shares of the BTER company, which means that one unit of BTER stake entitles to the dividends of one unit of real BTER company shares and to one vote at the board. Thanks to that mapping, you can keep running BTER as a normal company and progressively DACify the management process as the ecosystem and management tools gets more mature. Meanwhile the shareholders can elect delegates to represent the DAC at BTER board.

Recapitalization of BTER can then be done without a share dilution. We can just organize a crowd sale of BTER shares so interested parties can invest in BTER. That way Bitshares isn't directly affected by the acquisition but still gets the benefits of having a large on/off-ramp tighly integrated in the eco-system. Holders of balances at BTER can elect to participate to the crowdsale at preferential rate and redeem BTER stake in lieue of their currency balance. This would help reducing further the pressure of the loss.

That would be a very exciting opportunity and it would feel very reassuring for BTER users to know that the exchange is now operated under tight control from a Bitshares DAC and cold wallets are controlled by delegates using multisig. For Bitshares the benefit is enormous as we can make bitAssets a central element of the trading books and ensure that bitAsset markets are getting always more liquidity until the point where the peg is so tight that we can start accepting 1:1 deposit / withdrawal between BTER balances and corresponding BitAssets.

Offline xiahui135

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2015, 07:50:28 AM »
yes, BTER has some resource to be a fiat in&out bridge for many digital currencies.
but I think it will be hard to run such a company, and I want to know how much will it cost.

Offline xiahui135

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2015, 07:53:18 AM »
site like yunbi.com , metaexchange can also be the bridge.
It is also should be considered that to establish a new gateway or improve the existing ones.

Offline klosure

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2015, 08:05:10 AM »
BTER's user base is priceless.
Every altcoiner worth his salt has a BTER account and is using BTER on a regular basis.
BTER's user base is Bitshares target consummer base, it's captive and desperatly hoping for someone to step forward and save the day. This is a once in a life time opportunity to make a bold move, single handedly take over our target market and come across as heroes.

Offline Method-X

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2015, 08:19:01 AM »
This is delusional.

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2015, 08:23:47 AM »
This seems like a bad idea.  We need direct fiat gateways, not exchanges.

sumantso

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2015, 08:28:15 AM »
1) There are alternatives - metaexchange, yunbi etc which will capture the volume. Thats how it works, something else will fill the void.

2) Bter doesn't have any USD licenses. They operate CNY but it seems that is not much of an issue. Already we have tradebts operating smoothly.

3) I have been maintaining that BTS might fail, but certainly won't be due to this Bter hack. Instead of trying this kind of solution, use this as an opportunity to get users to the DeX.

Offline klosure

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2015, 08:51:32 AM »
This is delusional.
Is that the core of your argument?

Offline klosure

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2015, 09:01:22 AM »
1) There are alternatives - metaexchange, yunbi etc which will capture the volume. Thats how it works, something else will fill the void.
They'll capture the subset of BTER users who actively care about Bitshares i.e. us i.e. a minority.
The majority of other BTER users will move to other exchanges that don't have Bitshares and Bitassets listed and will completely forget about Bitshares. Game over.

2) Bter doesn't have any USD licenses. They operate CNY but it seems that is not much of an issue. Already we have tradebts operating smoothly.
That's not new. The question isn't what additional capabilities BTER should be getting to be even more useful as an on/off-ramp but whether in its current state it is a valuable on/off-ramp and what effect losing it will have on Bitshares. The question is whether the price to pay to acquire BTER before it fails is higher than the fall out of letting BTER fail.

3) I have been maintaining that BTS might fail, but certainly won't be due to this Bter hack.
BTS will fail because it is too conservative and doesn't dare to do anything bold.
It's not going to go belly up because BTER fail: instead it will slowly keep losing momentum until the delegates pay are so ridiculous that developers start giving up their slots and move on. Then it will die.

Instead of trying this kind of solution, use this as an opportunity to get users to the DeX.
I fail to see how letting one of the main bridge between Bitshares and the world collapse is an opportunity to get users onto Bitshares. I agree that this will put another nail in the coffin of centralized exchanges so users out there will start looking around for decentralized exchanges that are actually accessible from the real world and flock to NXT, SuperNet, Medicis and Stellar, Counterparty and Ripple.

Acquiring BTER is bold. It's a bet. It's wild. But if we can't get around thinking of doing things like that, Bitshares won't even be a side noted in history books covering the crypto era.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:11:48 AM by klosure »

Offline klosure

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2015, 09:02:06 AM »
This seems like a bad idea.  We need direct fiat gateways, not exchanges.
We need to survive first before we get fiat gateways.

Offline merlin0113

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2015, 09:11:24 AM »
This seems like a bad idea.  We need direct fiat gateways, not exchanges.
We need to survive first before we get fiat gateways.

To this argument, I have a question:
Can exchange remain its business mode while serve as a BTS gateways or bridge at the same time?
Reference material:
http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/update/2014/12/18/Benefits-of-Being-a-BitShares-Gateway/
https://bitshares.org/resources/gateways

Offline klosure

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2015, 09:18:21 AM »
This seems like a bad idea.  We need direct fiat gateways, not exchanges.
We need to survive first before we get fiat gateways.

To this argument, I have a question:
Can exchange remain its business mode while serve as a BTS gateways or bridge at the same time?
Reference material:
http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/update/2014/12/18/Benefits-of-Being-a-BitShares-Gateway/
https://bitshares.org/resources/gateways

You will always have exchanges, because decentralized exchanges are too slow. The market is going to consolidate around two poles: highly trustable, local, fast and feature rich centralized liquidity pools, trustess and global but slow and feature poor decentralized exchanges acting as cross-currency money networks between the pools.
By becoming a Bitshares gateway, BTER will be to Bitshares like Bitstamp is to Ripple, except that being a majority stake holder, Bitshares will have much more control over what's going on at BTER.

Offline chryspano

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2015, 09:19:16 AM »
Quote
BTS will fail because it is too conservative and doesn't dare to do anything bold.

lol

Offline inarizushi

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2015, 09:21:09 AM »
klosure, on what grounds exactly is based your confidence that you are right ? Why do you claim to have a perfect insight of what the cryptocommunity wants ? Have you at least spoken to anyone from BTER ?

BTER was a nice centralized exchange, but it certainly isn't bitshares. They were BitShares friendly, but they also asked an ignominious 1% withdrawal fee. Bitshares needs a secure on/off ramp, like kraken.com, and then it must perfect its UI until my grandpa can use it. That's all we need. BTER has been hacked 2 times. Why in the world would we want to help BTER pay their debts ?

It's a blow to BitShares, but it also shows that we are right in insisting on decentralization. Why should we lose more than BTC here ? There is no reason to die from this, the market peg will hold and we'll just keep losing some weak hands... till, at last, some big investors will understand why BitShares is a good solution.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline merlin0113

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Re: Creation of a BTER DAC and crowd funded recapitalization
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2015, 09:22:29 AM »
This seems like a bad idea.  We need direct fiat gateways, not exchanges.
We need to survive first before we get fiat gateways.

To this argument, I have a question:
Can exchange remain its business mode while serve as a BTS gateways or bridge at the same time?
Reference material:
http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/update/2014/12/18/Benefits-of-Being-a-BitShares-Gateway/
https://bitshares.org/resources/gateways

You will always have exchanges, because decentralized exchanges are too slow. The market is going to consolidate around two poles: highly trustable, local, fast and feature rich centralized liquidity pools, trustess and global but slow and feature poor decentralized exchanges acting as cross-currency money networks between the pools.
By becoming a Bitshares gateway, BTER will be to Bitshares like Bitstamp is to Ripple, except that being a majority stake holder, Bitshares will have much more control over what's going on at BTER.

Exactly, so this argument is not there.

 

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