Poll

Would you donate to the Moonstone wallet fundraiser?

Yes
35 (42.7%)
Maybe
31 (37.8%)
No
16 (19.5%)

Total Members Voted: 79

Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal  (Read 2195 times)

Offline bitsapphire

Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« on: February 16, 2015, 05:42:25 PM »

Hi everybody,

After quite an interesting discussion on our last thread we convened with the team and tried to come up with an alternative proposal.

Our new fundraiser proposal:
  • February: Launch the Moonstone landing page and get the word out.
  • March: We’ll do a scaled kickstarter with a minimum of 130,000 USD worth in BTC/BTS and no upper limit. Donation period will be 30 days.
  • We’ll map everybody’s public keys and send Bitsapphire UIAs to the corresponding public keys on BitShares. For every USD worth in BTC/BTS you send you’ll get 1.15 Bitsapphire UIAs (we have increased it from 1.1 to 1.15 due to higher risk as a result of opt-out delegates).
  • Once the campaign ends and we reach the sufficient budget, both the frontend and backend of the wallet will be released under the MIT license (this means that anybody will have the right to use our code also for for-profit reasons). This is especially appealing to projects out there which need lightweight DPOS wallets but don’t want to develop it themselves. Future DPOS forked projects will also be able to easily use the code.
  • The wallet will have 5 opt-out delegates which can be deselected upon installation and whenever you want. All proceedings from the delegates will be converted to bitUSD. 100% of these bitUSD will be used to set 1:1 buy orders for the Bitsapphire UIAs you received. Further monetization efforts will be reviewed later on by Bitsapphire (such as featured assets, markets, etc)
  • This means that anybody who sent donations will receive 15% more than put in. Depending on the BTS market cap, this means that you’ll effectively get your donation back in 5-30 months (rough calculation based on historical BTS market cap, not binding and dependent on Delegate proceedings).
  • If we fail to reach our budget the Moonstone Angular frontend will be released under the more restrictive GPL3 license which makes it impossible to use the code for for-profit reasons. The backend which makes the light client possible remains closed source. Nonetheless, the wallet will be released with the same number of delegates and whatever budget we got will be converted as planned with a 1:1 ratio.

All funds received are considered donations, no actions on our part are binding in any way. However, similar to the BitShares no-force approach we intend on following through with the above steps (unless the community gives us at this point good counter arguments or better proposals).

What are your thoughts on the improved fundraiser proposal?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 12:23:24 PM by bitsapphire »
Test Moonstone Wallet here https://app.moonstone.io/register

Offline Xeldal

Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2015, 05:57:19 PM »
Good stuff.  This is much better.  +5%
I think you made the right decision.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2015, 06:06:26 PM »
+5% .. lot better ..
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2015, 06:22:00 PM »
Yes.

Offline roadscape

Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2015, 06:38:06 PM »
What if the campaign doesn't bring in $130,000, but the delegates do in the long run? Will it be changed to MIT at that point?
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2015, 07:15:30 PM »
Will you take the delegates in the wallet down once the repaid the 130k? If not what will you do with the revenue?

Offline bitsapphire

Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2015, 07:42:04 PM »
What if the campaign doesn't bring in $130,000, but the delegates do in the long run? Will it be changed to MIT at that point?

Will you take the delegates in the wallet down once the repaid the 130k? If not what will you do with the revenue?

Once the 130k+15% is payed off to the donors we will remove the delegate opt-out box completely. Any wallets with existing votes will be able to change their vote anyway along the way.

We want everybody to understand the intention of this project: The delegates pay is used simply so the public is able to pay for a public good (i.e. MIT license), while the risk or the wallet production is taken up by individual donors, not the public. We are completely against setups where the public is dragged into risk taking without consent. If the budget is not reached then well, the wallet won't be a public good because the donors did not want to take on the risk.
Test Moonstone Wallet here https://app.moonstone.io/register


Offline santaclause102

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2015, 09:28:45 PM »
What if the campaign doesn't bring in $130,000, but the delegates do in the long run? Will it be changed to MIT at that point?

Will you take the delegates in the wallet down once the repaid the 130k? If not what will you do with the revenue?

Once the 130k+15% is payed off to the donors we will remove the delegate opt-out box completely. Any wallets with existing votes will be able to change their vote anyway along the way.

We want everybody to understand the intention of this project: The delegates pay is used simply so the public is able to pay for a public good (i.e. MIT license), while the risk or the wallet production is taken up by individual donors, not the public. We are completely against setups where the public is dragged into risk taking without consent. If the budget is not reached then well, the wallet won't be a public good because the donors did not want to take on the risk.
+5% Sounds like a solid concept!

Online Shentist

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2015, 10:05:19 PM »
What if the campaign doesn't bring in $130,000, but the delegates do in the long run? Will it be changed to MIT at that point?

Will you take the delegates in the wallet down once the repaid the 130k? If not what will you do with the revenue?

Once the 130k+15% is payed off to the donors we will remove the delegate opt-out box completely. Any wallets with existing votes will be able to change their vote anyway along the way.

We want everybody to understand the intention of this project: The delegates pay is used simply so the public is able to pay for a public good (i.e. MIT license), while the risk or the wallet production is taken up by individual donors, not the public. We are completely against setups where the public is dragged into risk taking without consent. If the budget is not reached then well, the wallet won't be a public good because the donors did not want to take on the risk.

so, if i understand it correct if you reach 40k it will never be MIT license and the delegates will still be running to pay the donors back? But, why should i vote the delegates in without the chance to get it into MIT over the coming month?

Offline arhag

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2015, 10:14:16 PM »
If we fail to reach our budget the Moonstone Angular frontend will be released under the more restrictive GPL3 license which makes it impossible to use the code for for-profit reasons. The backend which makes the light client possible remains closed source. Nonetheless, the wallet will be released with the same number of delegates and whatever budget we got will be converted as planned with a 1:1 ratio.

How about the following?

If the 130,000 USD budget is not reached, you calculate the deficit D which acts as the principal for a loan with some interest r APR. You release the client with the 5 opt-out delegates under the GPL3 license and do not release the server code. Then any money collected by these delegates is used to pay off the principle + interest of the loan first, before selling for the UIA at a 1:1 ratio. Once the loan is paid off, you re-license the client under the MIT license and you also release the server code under the MIT license. After the loan is paid off, any surplus income from the delegates is used to do the UIA buyback at the 1:1 ratio until all of the UIAs are destroyed. Then after those UIAs are completely destroyed, you retire the 5 delegates.

Another variation would be to require that the loan be paid off before some expiration time (say 2 years after the wallet is released) or else the license remains GPL3, the loan becomes void, and all income from the delegates goes toward the UIA buyback after that point until all of the UIAs are bought back and destroyed, at which point you retire the 5 delegates.

If this sounds reasonable to you, then we just need to see if we can find a compromise value of r that is acceptable to you but also does not damage the kickstarter by much due to the added risk.

Another variation that may be interesting is to adjust the UIAs paid per dollar as the funding campaign progresses. For example, the first $65,000 could offer 1.20 UIA/USD, the next $45,000 could offer 1.15 UIA/USD, and the last $20,000 could offer 1.10 UIA/USD (for an average rate of 1.167 UIA/USD). This provides the extra incentive for donators to contribute early in the campaign despite the greater risk due to the larger uncertainty regarding how large the deficit may end up being (if any).

Edit: I thought of another modification. If there is a deficit, then after the wallet launches you can use the delegate funds collected each week to first buy any UIA sell orders at a price of 1.17 UIA/USD or above, and then use any remaining money to pay off the loan. This delays paying off the loan, but it gives the early donators at the 1.20 UIA/USD price some confidence that they can exit early for smaller profits (2.6% rather than 20%) if they are concerned that the deficit is too large that it may take up to 2 years before they can start earning any returns. It also allows the later donators (those that paid after $65,000 was already raised) to exit at a loss if they lose confidence at the expense of further delaying the loan repayment (potentially so long that it isn't paid off by the 2 year expiration time and the code remains GPL3 licensed).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 10:44:05 PM by arhag »

Offline cass

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2015, 10:17:13 PM »
If we fail to reach our budget the Moonstone Angular frontend will be released under the more restrictive GPL3 license which makes it impossible to use the code for for-profit reasons. The backend which makes the light client possible remains closed source. Nonetheless, the wallet will be released with the same number of delegates and whatever budget we got will be converted as planned with a 1:1 ratio.

How about the following?

If the 130,000 USD budget is not reached, you calculate the deficit D which acts as the principal for a loan with some interest r APR. You release the client with the 5 opt-out delegates under the GPL3 license and do not release the server code. Then any money collected by these delegates is used to pay off the principle + interest of the loan first, before selling for the UIA at a 1:1 ratio. Once the loan is paid off, you re-license the client under the MIT license and you also release the server code under the MIT license. After the loan is paid off, any surplus income from the delegates is used to do the UIA buyback at the 1:1 ratio until all of the UIAs are destroyed. Then after those UIAs are completely destroyed, you retired the 5 delegates.

Another variation would be to require that the loan be paid off before some expiration time (say 2 years after the wallet is released) or else the license remains GPL3, the loan becomes void, and all income from the delegates goes toward the UIA buyback after that point until all of the UIAs are bought back and destroyed, at which point you retire the 5 delegates.

If this sounds reasonable to you, then we just need to see if we can find a compromise value of r that is acceptable to you but also does not damage the kickstarter by much due to the added risk.

Another variation that may be interesting is to adjust the UIAs paid per dollar as the funding campaign progresses. For example, the first $65,000 could offer 1.20 UIA/USD, the next $45,000 could offer 1.15 UIA/USD, and the last $20,000 could offer 1.10 UIA/USD (for an average rate of 1.167 UIA/USD). This provides the extra incentive for donators to contribute early in the campaign despite the greater risk due to the larger uncertainty regarding how large the deficit may end up being (if any).

 +5%
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Offline klosure

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2015, 06:39:54 AM »
  • The wallet will have 5 opt-out delegates which can be deselected upon installation.
Unvoting delegates should be possible at any time, not only at installation. People tend to ignore disclaimers, user agreements and so on at the time they install, so limiting opt-out to installation time is the quasi-equivalent of putting hard coded delegates.

Offline blahblah7up

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 08:26:37 AM »
  • The wallet will have 5 opt-out delegates which can be deselected upon installation.
Unvoting delegates should be possible at any time, not only at installation. People tend to ignore disclaimers, user agreements and so on at the time they install, so limiting opt-out to installation time is the quasi-equivalent of putting hard coded delegates.

Nice catch! I didn't even notice it. Another reason to question the tactics and motives of this group.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:30:44 AM by blahblah7up »

Offline xeroc

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Re: Revised: Moonstone - New Bitsapphire Wallet: Fundraiser proposal
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 08:57:10 AM »
  • The wallet will have 5 opt-out delegates which can be deselected upon installation.
Unvoting delegates should be possible at any time, not only at installation. People tend to ignore disclaimers, user agreements and so on at the time they install, so limiting opt-out to installation time is the quasi-equivalent of putting hard coded delegates.

Nice catch! I didn't even notice it. Another reason to question the tactics and motives of this group.
or maybe just a flawed translation .. not that this community shouldn't already know about those issues
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