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Offline hadrian

Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« on: March 16, 2015, 08:59:40 PM »

Epicentre Bitcoin: EB65 – Adam Back & Greg Maxwell: Sidechains Unchained

Brian Fabian Crain says something like, "the idea of stable cryptocurrencies, it's very attractive but so far there are no implementations, although some people told me this nubits thing but I haven't looked into it"...

I know there are intricacies when it comes to the meaning of 'stable', but if nubits makes it onto people's radar, surely BitShares should!? It's so frustrating.

From 1h19m36s the subject went on to proof of stake. I'm not sure how DPOS fits in to what they were saying. Adam Back and Greg Maxwell seem to be of the opinion that there is no decently viable option around for proof of stake. Are they aware of DPOS I wonder?

They get some interesting people on the show/podcast. I was thinking of sending them some sort of message regarding BitShares.
Is there anyone here well placed to communicate with them? Or inclined to do so?

Their main sponsor seems to be ShapeShift, and they do a demo of ShapeShift during the episode. Maybe we could suggest they use BitUSD for something now that we're back on ShapeShift...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 09:01:24 PM by hadrian »
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Offline vlight

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Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2015, 09:07:14 PM »
How can they not know about BitShares, it has been sitting at the top of CMC for months. smh


Offline Ander

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Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 09:11:23 PM »
Yes, they are really all this ignorant of bitUSD.

If we get some big buy/sell walls out there like Cryptohedge was working on before the bter implosion, then we can get mentioned alongside Nubits as well.

Bitcoin has a much larger network effect for now, and the bitcoiners just ignore everything else.  We have to wake them up. :)
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Offline mdj

Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2015, 09:35:28 PM »
Yes, they are really all this ignorant of bitUSD.

If we get some big buy/sell walls out there like Cryptohedge was working on before the bter implosion, then we can get mentioned alongside Nubits as well.

Bitcoin has a much larger network effect for now, and the bitcoiners just ignore everything else.  We have to wake them up. :)

It'll happen naturally eventually - we just need to focus on the product and the adoption will follow! I used to be an avid Bitcoiner but have since been converted.
When Bitcoiners realise that they already have a decentralised exchange and come to terms with market pegs and gateways, Bitshares will become a very popular platform.

Offline davidpbrown

Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2015, 09:40:15 PM »
One obvious useful task to put PR/marketing to, would be to contact all those central to blockchain tech development and suggest where BitShares is up to. Those people should be easy to find.. core devs of all the key projects etc. That would need to be done in a careful way that is not at all critical of others but a simple statement to pique their interest and perhaps also note a standing opportunity to work with BitShares, where that can be useful to all sides - perhaps there are devs with time to spare who might get drawn in. Such a statement could then be technical beyond the normal blurb. There must be devs out there looking for opportunities. Blatant selling re delegates perhaps would not go down well but a friendly handshake might work. Perhaps marketing can resolve the mailing list and bytemaster could be writing then to Sunny et al.

I expect there must be certain elements of many projects that could be made easier pooling experience, network stability might be one. Perhaps that's already happening behind the scenes but having seen other Bitcoin devs talk at the London conference, as if they are ignorant of BitShares, there might be a easy win to be had there educating them about BitShares.
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Offline mdj

Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 09:50:07 PM »
One obvious useful task to put PR/marketing to, would be to contact all those central to blockchain tech development and suggest where BitShares is up to. Those people should be easy to find.. core devs of all the key projects etc. That would need to be done in a careful way that is not at all critical of others but a simple statement to pique their interest and perhaps also note a standing opportunity to work with BitShares, where that can be useful to all sides - perhaps there are devs with time to spare who might get drawn in. Such a statement could then be technical beyond the normal blurb. There must be devs out there looking for opportunities. Blatant selling re delegates perhaps would not go down well but a friendly handshake might work. Perhaps marketing can resolve the mailing list and bytemaster could be writing then to Sunny et al.

I expect there must be certain elements of many projects that could be made easier pooling experience, network stability might be one. Perhaps that's already happening behind the scenes but having seen other Bitcoin devs talk at the London conference, as if they are ignorant of BitShares, there might be a easy win to be had there educating them about BitShares.

 +5%

One concern is the very blatant attempts at marketing by Bitshares users though - it just triggers people to shun it and call them shills.

Offline matthewmorganstein

Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 10:29:32 PM »
I get lots of criticism for my posts but I'm usually not shunned. They are at least effective in getting eyeballs in our direction. It would be really useful to have a list of rebuttals, especially towards all those negative articles.

Offline AsymmetricInformation

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Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2015, 12:16:03 AM »
This is a sad, sad thread. As ABL warned my similarly-minded friend, this will probably be pearls before swine, but I suppose I just can't resist the opportunity to do the right thing.

AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about. They laugh at 1:19:54 because all of the proof of stake ideas floating around today are just repeats of what was tried (and abandoned) in 2011 or earlier.

Having corresponded with Blockstream about this in particular, I know that at 1:21:28 Adam Back refers to "Working on What?" in my own anti-PoS blog post ( http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/ or, more specifically, his post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=907157.0 ). Then they discussed Nothing-At-Stake, and finally 1:23:45 AB refers to stake-grinding (from Poelstra's paper). All of that is in my post, and, in fact, after writing my post, multiple early Bitcoin-wizards wrote to me to basically say "You seem like a smart guy, you shouldn't waste your time on this because we've all moved on a long time ago. No knowledgeable people care about proof of stake anymore. Try working on X instead."

It is as RH comments here ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/gt/a_fable_of_science_and_politics/ ). That "people who learn the answer leave the conversation".

At 1:25:05, and 1:27:08, GM is poking fun at Bitshares (among other things).

As for BitUSD, there is no clear documentation of the constantly-shifting, constantly-ridiculous technical and economic methods by which BitUSD is constructed. There are too many examples of this to list, try https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4692.msg59823 and note that "Howard" at http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/bitusd/ couldn't even source the BitUSD interest rate after several days of searching. All kinds of new, untested stuff (delegate feeds, market-matching algorithms) has been thrown together in an essentially embarrassing way.

Out.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 12:17:38 AM by AsymmetricInformation »

Offline CLains

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Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2015, 02:11:20 AM »
I agree, people are aware of it, they just don't like it. People can't quite put their finger on what it is though, so they keep rationalizing it, arguing about this or that instead. It's like a pesky thing that's right outside the corner of their eyes that they can't quite catch hold of. What could it be?

Offline carpet ride

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Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2015, 02:20:55 AM »
This is a sad, sad thread. As ABL warned my similarly-minded friend, this will probably be pearls before swine, but I suppose I just can't resist the opportunity to do the right thing.

AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about. They laugh at 1:19:54 because all of the proof of stake ideas floating around today are just repeats of what was tried (and abandoned) in 2011 or earlier.

Having corresponded with Blockstream about this in particular, I know that at 1:21:28 Adam Back refers to "Working on What?" in my own anti-PoS blog post ( http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/ or, more specifically, his post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=907157.0 ). Then they discussed Nothing-At-Stake, and finally 1:23:45 AB refers to stake-grinding (from Poelstra's paper). All of that is in my post, and, in fact, after writing my post, multiple early Bitcoin-wizards wrote to me to basically say "You seem like a smart guy, you shouldn't waste your time on this because we've all moved on a long time ago. No knowledgeable people care about proof of stake anymore. Try working on X instead."

It is as RH comments here ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/gt/a_fable_of_science_and_politics/ ). That "people who learn the answer leave the conversation".

At 1:25:05, and 1:27:08, GM is poking fun at Bitshares (among other things).

As for BitUSD, there is no clear documentation of the constantly-shifting, constantly-ridiculous technical and economic methods by which BitUSD is constructed. There are too many examples of this to list, try https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4692.msg59823 and note that "Howard" at http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/bitusd/ couldn't even source the BitUSD interest rate after several days of searching. All kinds of new, untested stuff (delegate feeds, market-matching algorithms) has been thrown together in an essentially embarrassing way.

Out.

This is actually some of the most constructive criticism I've read on this forum. Thank you AI

However, the only boiled down points I can find to take away is that you see the system as young and unproven, and that there is no way to move beyond that stage without documentation.  Can you give us any other boiled down criticisms that don't fit into those categories?

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« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 04:03:12 AM by Carpet Ride »
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2015, 02:40:47 AM »

This is a sad, sad thread. As ABL warned my similarly-minded friend, this will probably be pearls before swine, but I suppose I just can't resist the opportunity to do the right thing.

AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about. They laugh at 1:19:54 because all of the proof of stake ideas floating around today are just repeats of what was tried (and abandoned) in 2011 or earlier.

Having corresponded with Blockstream about this in particular, I know that at 1:21:28 Adam Back refers to "Working on What?" in my own anti-PoS blog post ( http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/ or, more specifically, his post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=907157.0 ). Then they discussed Nothing-At-Stake, and finally 1:23:45 AB refers to stake-grinding (from Poelstra's paper). All of that is in my post, and, in fact, after writing my post, multiple early Bitcoin-wizards wrote to me to basically say "You seem like a smart guy, you shouldn't waste your time on this because we've all moved on a long time ago. No knowledgeable people care about proof of stake anymore. Try working on X instead."

It is as RH comments here ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/gt/a_fable_of_science_and_politics/ ). That "people who learn the answer leave the conversation".

At 1:25:05, and 1:27:08, GM is poking fun at Bitshares (among other things).

As for BitUSD, there is no clear documentation of the constantly-shifting, constantly-ridiculous technical and economic methods by which BitUSD is constructed. There are too many examples of this to list, try https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4692.msg59823 and note that "Howard" at http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/bitusd/ couldn't even source the BitUSD interest rate after several days of searching. All kinds of new, untested stuff (delegate feeds, market-matching algorithms) has been thrown together in an essentially embarrassing way.

Out.

This actually some of the most constructive criticism I've read on this forum. Thank you AI


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Really? Constructive? I read it several times to try and find something constructively critical and all I found was someone with an axe to grind and a blog to advertise.

He quotes with approval: "because we've all moved on a long time ago" and yet here he is again apparently still reading our forum for a chance to, ah, exactly what? Obsessed much?

"AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about."  That's constructive criticism? Is he a a fly on their wall, or lives in their brains that he knows what they think when they don't state it?

The post is largely a sour grapes advertisement for his own blog and project and consists almost entirely of name-dropping and speculation.

Constructive criticism my ass.

Offline oco101

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Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2015, 02:59:35 AM »

This is a sad, sad thread. As ABL warned my similarly-minded friend, this will probably be pearls before swine, but I suppose I just can't resist the opportunity to do the right thing.

AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about. They laugh at 1:19:54 because all of the proof of stake ideas floating around today are just repeats of what was tried (and abandoned) in 2011 or earlier.

Having corresponded with Blockstream about this in particular, I know that at 1:21:28 Adam Back refers to "Working on What?" in my own anti-PoS blog post ( http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/ or, more specifically, his post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=907157.0 ). Then they discussed Nothing-At-Stake, and finally 1:23:45 AB refers to stake-grinding (from Poelstra's paper). All of that is in my post, and, in fact, after writing my post, multiple early Bitcoin-wizards wrote to me to basically say "You seem like a smart guy, you shouldn't waste your time on this because we've all moved on a long time ago. No knowledgeable people care about proof of stake anymore. Try working on X instead."

It is as RH comments here ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/gt/a_fable_of_science_and_politics/ ). That "people who learn the answer leave the conversation".

At 1:25:05, and 1:27:08, GM is poking fun at Bitshares (among other things).

As for BitUSD, there is no clear documentation of the constantly-shifting, constantly-ridiculous technical and economic methods by which BitUSD is constructed. There are too many examples of this to list, try https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4692.msg59823 and note that "Howard" at http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/bitusd/ couldn't even source the BitUSD interest rate after several days of searching. All kinds of new, untested stuff (delegate feeds, market-matching algorithms) has been thrown together in an essentially embarrassing way.

Out.

This actually some of the most constructive criticism I've read on this forum. Thank you AI


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Really? Constructive? I read it several times to try and find something constructively critical and all I found was someone with an axe to grind and a blog to advertise.

He quotes with approval: "because we've all moved on a long time ago" and yet here he is again apparently still reading our forum for a chance to, ah, exactly what? Obsessed much?

"AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about."  That's constructive criticism? Is he a a fly on their wall, or lives in their brains that he knows what they think when they don't state it?

The post is largely a sour grapes advertisement for his own blog and project and consists almost entirely of name-dropping and speculation.

Constructive criticism my ass.

Fully agree with this. I suspect that Carpet Ride was just sarcastic.



Offline bitmeat

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Re: Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2015, 03:32:48 AM »
Issues I see with BitUSD:
  • It may be stable, but the software isn't. (although it seems to be getting incrementally better)
  • Unreliable cold wallets, etc. (even though xeroc has put together a nice guide, last time I tried it with 2 BitUSD, it got lost, so I would not trust it, and you shouldn't either)
  • On-boarding new users has a horrible deadlock - in order to make sending and receiving "easy" you have to have balance to register. But to get balance out of an exchange you need to register. OK you say - there are existing faucets that will get you started, but those violate privacy in a way that most people in the space are not comfortable with.
  • TITAN is more hassle than it's worth it - would've been nice as an "optional" feature. Transactions details got lost in the process.
  • No cool use cases and example implementations - e.g. Escrow. Most of the code out there is written with Bitcoin script in mind. BTS should have done one of these: 1) Implement Bitcoin script, so that existing engines can work. 2) Implement Ethereum and generate some noise in the process. 3) Implement its own form of scripting.
  • It is naive to think that developers/promoters/etc. "workers" should also be responsible for the network health by running a delegate server. This should have been decoupled (and still could). Make it so people can write proposals and business plans, but then allocated the necessary BitUSD or whatever they require. This would also have generated demand for BitUSD. Since you can make projects funded in BitUSD, but then that BitUSD would be locked in a DAC's account. Duh!

Let delegates be paid whatever a server costs/month + some premium in BitUSD - that would also generate demand. i.e. you'd issue BTS and automatically purchase BitUSD.

Then business plans should be funded separately and according to their needs. BTS stakeholders can vote on whether a project has a good potential to increase the value of BTS. If someone makes a proposal that will cost $1M but would increase value of BTS 10x, wouldn't everyone vote for it? i.e. lock 1M in BitUSD and distribute slowly as long as they meet milestones.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 03:34:31 AM by bitmeat »

Offline carpet ride

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Are people really this ignorant of BitUSD?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2015, 03:56:59 AM »

This is a sad, sad thread. As ABL warned my similarly-minded friend, this will probably be pearls before swine, but I suppose I just can't resist the opportunity to do the right thing.

AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about. They laugh at 1:19:54 because all of the proof of stake ideas floating around today are just repeats of what was tried (and abandoned) in 2011 or earlier.

Having corresponded with Blockstream about this in particular, I know that at 1:21:28 Adam Back refers to "Working on What?" in my own anti-PoS blog post ( http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-and-mining/ or, more specifically, his post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=907157.0 ). Then they discussed Nothing-At-Stake, and finally 1:23:45 AB refers to stake-grinding (from Poelstra's paper). All of that is in my post, and, in fact, after writing my post, multiple early Bitcoin-wizards wrote to me to basically say "You seem like a smart guy, you shouldn't waste your time on this because we've all moved on a long time ago. No knowledgeable people care about proof of stake anymore. Try working on X instead."

It is as RH comments here ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/gt/a_fable_of_science_and_politics/ ). That "people who learn the answer leave the conversation".

At 1:25:05, and 1:27:08, GM is poking fun at Bitshares (among other things).

As for BitUSD, there is no clear documentation of the constantly-shifting, constantly-ridiculous technical and economic methods by which BitUSD is constructed. There are too many examples of this to list, try https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4692.msg59823 and note that "Howard" at http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/bitusd/ couldn't even source the BitUSD interest rate after several days of searching. All kinds of new, untested stuff (delegate feeds, market-matching algorithms) has been thrown together in an essentially embarrassing way.

Out.

This actually some of the most constructive criticism I've read on this forum. Thank you AI


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Really? Constructive? I read it several times to try and find something constructively critical and all I found was someone with an axe to grind and a blog to advertise.

He quotes with approval: "because we've all moved on a long time ago" and yet here he is again apparently still reading our forum for a chance to, ah, exactly what? Obsessed much?

"AB and GM are more than aware of Bitshares and DPoS, they just think that neither are any good, or even worth spending any time talking about."  That's constructive criticism? Is he a a fly on their wall, or lives in their brains that he knows what they think when they don't state it?

The post is largely a sour grapes advertisement for his own blog and project and consists almost entirely of name-dropping and speculation.

Constructive criticism my ass.

Fully agree with this. I suspect that Carpet Ride was just sarcastic.



Yes - I was being sarcastic.  The AI post is just short-sighted criticism.  I boil down his objections in an update to my post.  The result?  I just see lack of vision / lack of ability to wrap his mind around the future outcomes of the bts innovations and developments

To his point, he and others will gain clarity as more documentation is published.


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