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Offline Shentist

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This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« on: March 28, 2015, 09:03:44 PM »

I want to remember ALL delegates to publish pricefeeds.

In the last days the delegates on the 5 main bitAssets are down do 64/101

- i still think any delegate should publish pricefeeds, especially ALL core devs. Why are some core devs not publishing? In the past TOAST and others stated they want to code something on their own. I am fine with that, but not in 1 year! All of you had enough time, and it looks to me you have no time to do it, so just use an already existing feedscript.

maybe this is also a good time to discuss the feed idea at all. Do we really need them or can we come up with a better solution?

Offline Akado

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2015, 09:25:08 PM »
"i still think any delegate should publish pricefeeds"

Imo, every single delegate must provide pricefeeds. It's a requirement. The basic of the basics. I don't understand why they don't do it honestly.
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Offline starspirit

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2015, 10:22:05 PM »
I am of the personal opinion that a price feed is necessary to oblige parties to make markets at the peg price. As such, I think improving the quality of price feeds is a critical issue that we must address better.

So here's more food for thought- What if anybody were able to submit price feeds and be rewarded for their accuracy per block in doing so?

For example, it might be possible for some delegates to act as arbiters of price feed quality. Most of their delegate pay could be passed through to fund rewards to price feed submitters. The advantage of this is that delegates as a collective group are not required to be experts in price feeds or burdened with that role, but there is a source of reward now available for anybody who can offer this service the best. The arbiter delegates can easily be voted in or out according to how well the do their job of incentivising accurate and timely price feeds. (Ultimately it would be better for the arbiters to be hired by the community in some other form than delegates, so that all delegates can focus purely on their key role of blockchain integrity.)

Now the pool could be distrubuted based on a transparent, verifiable, hindsight measure of accuracy. For example, arbiters might follow a policy of taking a price history from several official and public sources, combining them in some transparent way, and periodically (e.g. daily) comparing those against all price feeds submitted in that period. The distribution algorithm would take into account the error against the official source on each block. If feed prices are poor, the available reward incentivizes better submitters to join. The incentive can also be varied as necessary by the community by voting in more or fewer arbiter delegates.

I think such a hindsight-measured system could be more robust than alternatives such as prediction markets raised in the past. The problem with rewarding people for how close they are to a median or average price, is that even if some people can provide greater accuracy, they are incentivized to submit feeds that match the average error or lagginess of everybody else. A hindsight reward against official sources avoids this.

Anyway that's just some extra ideas to throw in the mix.

[Edit: an after-thought on this is that rather than using the median price feed for the trading engine, another possibility is we could use a price feed weighted by the accuracy of all past submitters.]
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:50:47 PM by starspirit »

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 10:13:59 AM »
I want to remember ALL delegates to publish pricefeeds.

In the last days the delegates on the 5 main bitAssets are down do 64/101

- i still think any delegate should publish pricefeeds, especially ALL core devs. Why are some core devs not publishing? In the past TOAST and others stated they want to code something on their own. I am fine with that, but not in 1 year! All of you had enough time, and it looks to me you have no time to do it, so just use an already existing feedscript.

maybe this is also a good time to discuss the feed idea at all. Do we really need them or can we come up with a better solution?

I don't understand why developers don't publish price feeds. Until a better solution is found I think all delegates should publish their feeds. If the delegates don't care about publishing feeds anymore then...no further comment...

Also the participation level is low  and today BTS is the only one going up...Strange things...

And what is even more strange is that people don't seem to much care anymore and this is frightening or at least doesn't build confidence...

Offline mint chocolate chip

Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 11:17:30 AM »
I would guess one of the reasons is to be able to avoid paying the transaction fees that go along with updating price feeds.

Offline mdj

Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 12:03:48 PM »
I would guess one of the reasons is to be able to avoid paying the transaction fees that go along with updating price feeds.

Yeah true, we should implement fee waiver for the price feed updates for top 101 delegates

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 02:26:06 PM »
I would guess one of the reasons is to be able to avoid paying the transaction fees that go along with updating price feeds.

You must be joking I hope...Isn't the fee like 0.1BTS? So 10 price feeds x 0.1 x 10-20 times per day is 10 BTS -20 BTS and you are telling me that delegates do not put their price feeds so they don't pay the 10BTS -20BTS per day fee, which is like 1/10 of a $? Or I missunderstand something here?

Offline Shentist

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 05:41:36 PM »
what is really frustrating is no reaction from any delegate who is NOT publishing pricefeeds!

Does this community deserve this?

Do i need to post it in "General"?

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 06:16:40 PM »
what is really frustrating is no reaction from any delegate who is NOT publishing pricefeeds!

Does this community deserve this?

Do i need to post it in "General"?

delegates might not be reading these boards at all, or they decided to consciously not publish price feeds for whatever reason they have. They don't have to justify their reasoning, but the network also doesn't have to keep them as delegates. For now, the network isn't demanding that every delegate publish price feeds (via market forces, i.e. being voted out) so they really don't have to do it or explain themselves at the moment.

That's the law of bitshares: if you don't like something, you have to convince people to vote for your slate of delegates that do what you like.
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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 06:18:57 PM »
what is really frustrating is no reaction from any delegate who is NOT publishing pricefeeds!

Does this community deserve this?

Do i need to post it in "General"?
if we finished up this proposal
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Delegate/PublicData
and aggressively asked delegates to comply with it, we at least had a way of directly contacting the developers ... the forum is maybe not the appropriate way
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Offline Shentist

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 06:22:19 PM »
sry maqifrnswa

i don't agree!

i believe it is a bad marketing and communication error, when key DEVs are not publishing feeds. If not them are publishing, who should i expect to do it? At the moment, without feeds our market is doomed, so i think this is one of the key components.


Offline Akado

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 06:32:52 PM »
Is there a list of non-publishers? Make a thread, give them 7 days and then we start voting them out.
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Offline kokojie

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 08:10:48 PM »
I want to remember ALL delegates to publish pricefeeds.

In the last days the delegates on the 5 main bitAssets are down do 64/101

- i still think any delegate should publish pricefeeds, especially ALL core devs. Why are some core devs not publishing? In the past TOAST and others stated they want to code something on their own. I am fine with that, but not in 1 year! All of you had enough time, and it looks to me you have no time to do it, so just use an already existing feedscript.

maybe this is also a good time to discuss the feed idea at all. Do we really need them or can we come up with a better solution?

I think it's because there was recently a big increase in 100% delegates, but some of them have little experience of actually running delegates, and are not publishing feeds. While they gained position, a few 3% technical delegates were pushed out of 101 position, and they were publishing feeds. This is why the total number of feeds went down.

I feel it's time to revisit the "delegate rotation" idea. (which is basically we'll have a number of delegate positions, let's say 10, that are randomly rotated. All standby delegates, that are running up to date delegate versions, publishing feeds, have a chance to be rotated into these active delegate positions for some time say 30 days, then it rotates again). This also gives standby delegates a chance to produce blocks and "prove" they are reliable delegates. So we can have a large army of standby delegates ready to be voted in, and strengthen the network.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 08:16:15 PM by kokojie »

Offline mitao

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Re: This is not the time to stop publishing pricefeeds!!!
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 08:25:55 PM »

what is really frustrating is no reaction from any delegate who is NOT publishing pricefeeds!

Does this community deserve this?

Do i need to post it in "General"?

Dude, it has been discussed more than 5 times if I recall correctly. They just don't do that no matter what you say.

I guess the answer from the dev is: BITE ME! Accept it or fk off.

Save ur time for sth else




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