Poll

With Crypto-related websites being outlawed worldwide, how important is BitShares DNS?

Let's dedicate someone as our BitShares DNS Guru ASAP
22 (30.1%)
Let's dedicate someone to at least get a basic browser extension published
9 (12.3%)
Decentralized DNS is important, but it can wait till after the MoonStone release
2 (2.7%)
Decentralized DNS is important, but it can wait till after the BitShares 1.0 release
28 (38.4%)
Decentralized DNS is not important right now
10 (13.7%)
I'll detail my vote below...
2 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 70

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Offline kenCode


Those of you who know me ([email protected]), know how passionate I am about saving the Internet.
 
Some related reasonings:
Wikileaks Loses DNS Service, Supporters Spread Mirrors as 'Infowar' Continues
  http://techpresident.com/blog-entry/updated-wikileaks-loses-dns-service-supporters-spread-mirrors-infowar-continues
What do UK and Iran have in common? Both want to outlaw encrypted apps
  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/12/iranuk_in_accord_as_pm_promises_to_block_encrypted_comms_after_election
David Cameron wants to ban encrypted apps like iMessage and Whatsapp
  https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/01/14/david-cameron-wants-to-ban-encrypted-apps-like-imessage-and-whatsapp
Russia (and Bangladesh, Vietnam, Iceland....) on blocking crypto-related websites:
  http://cointelegraph.com/news/113857/russias-bitcoin-ban-expected-in-august-expert-recommends-businesses-get-out
Why Namecoin Didn't Take Off: A Cautionary Tale
  http://cointelegraph.com/news/114129/why-namecoin-didnt-take-off-a-cautionary-tale
Tesla wants DNS Decentralized
  http://cointelegraph.com/news/114149/adopting-the-chain-how-tesla-could-protect-its-website-and-its-cars
 
Our wallets (wallet.bitshares.org, moonstone, bitsharesblocks, metaexchange, etc) are at stake now, not just the web itself.
Let's save ourselves first, then begin work on integrations with icann/iana/ietf, etc.
 
More ideas:
1. Make a new chrome browser extension that uses the proven BitShares Login (see below).
2. If the extension sees an address/url of "btsd:web.kencode" it will check the routable location to that "child" (website).
2b. You could even have the website owner maintain their own json file w/routing keys/vals, ie: http://kencode.de/id/kenCode.json
3. If the extension sees "btsd:kencode/approve" it will load up the local client, or the web wallet as a backup for votes.
4. If the extension sees "btsd:web.kencode/approve" you could vote for a website's popularity, great for search algos.
5. If the extension sees "btsd:chat.kencode" it would load up the user's chosen voip Dapp (like jitsi, firechat, icq, tweets, skype).
6. If the extension sees "btsd:mail.kencode/subject?'Here's my subject line'" it would load up the user's chosen email client.
 
Once the extension has these new abilities, then we could connect it to volunteer bridging nodes to ip4/ip6 tables. I will happily host the first few myself by purchasing a dedicated ip from my isp. I'll host my kencode website on a beaglebone black, or one of my raspi's. This way, you guys can verify routing and mapping to the "web" child account as seen in #2 and #4 above.
 
Here's a list of people that can assist with our Decentralized DNS Working Group (DDNSWG):
A. @toast at NOTE
B. Vitalik at ETH
C. Bas at NXT
D. Oleg at EMC
E. Elon Musk (we love Tesla)
F. @indolering at NMC
G. @gamey (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12119.0;all)
H. @testz (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12540.0;all)
I. Am I missing anyone??
 
The technology is already here, we just need to work together to finish it up. Please vote in the Poll above! :)
 
Think of how newsworthy this will be when released with 1.0.
First Moonstone, then decentralized BitShares DNS! (DDNS)
(the Darknet subreddit has become VERY active the last 6 months, and for good reason!)

Offline pc

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Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 08:45:00 AM »
IMO the DNS stuff should be done properly, and that takes time. If we rush out a half-baked solution we'll regret it later.

But you are right insofar as there doesn't seem to be any development on that front, and we should get this moving. What has become of Indolering's excellent proposal?
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Offline Thom

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 05:35:46 PM »
Thanks so much for for your (relative) newbie perspective of just how important DNS is.

When I think back on how many resources in the past year have been considered more important than DNS I get a very bad feeling in my stomach. DNS is one of the foundational elements that brought me into this community, and like you kenCode I feel very passionate about it.

I don't think the primary obstacle to rolling out a solution is technological, but is rather methodological. The heart of the problem is how to provide open access the the namespace in a manor that best serves all parties. Since some of these parties have conflicting interests the solution is a mater of vetting proposals and building consensus to implement the one chosen. It is largely an issue of what does consensus look like and how is it measured.

In the early days before DNS disappeared from focus there were a few proposals made, but none that seemed overwhelmingly satisfying to me personally. If I recall correctly the auction proposal was the predominate front runner. It is probably the best choice, but my fear is getting a simple name (without conflict with other) could take time to go thru a bidding process and I would need to expose my choice to others potentially taking it away from me to use. If I came up with a catchy, clever name that others find appealing and someone else who had no direct interest in it (other than to resell it), someone could come along and take that away from me.

Some say, well, that's the free market. Others might say, "but I invented that name" and feel it thus belongs to them. The former might say those with the most money will always win, and poor clever wordsmiths never do, is a potential outcome. And then there is the issue of migration & name ownership. Should somebody be able to squat on names like IBM, Microsoft, TrumpEnterprises etc. in the new DNS namespace and devise schemes to hold on to such names (in an auction system) long enough to sell them at huge profits to those who own those names in the existing DNS?

I believe it would be trivial to implement DNS on the blockchain compared to many of the features BitShares has already implemented. I see these issues as the reason DNS lost steam, the community (including the dev team) just couldn't come to a consensus. Where is Brent Allsop (canonizer.com) to help with this specific issue when you need him?

Offline fuzzy

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2015, 06:43:45 PM »
Those of you who know me, know how passionate I am about saving the Internet.
 
Some warnings:
Wikileaks Loses DNS Service, Supporters Spread Mirrors as 'Infowar' Continues
  http://techpresident.com/blog-entry/updated-wikileaks-loses-dns-service-supporters-spread-mirrors-infowar-continues
What do UK and Iran have in common? Both want to outlaw encrypted apps
  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/12/iranuk_in_accord_as_pm_promises_to_block_encrypted_comms_after_election
David Cameron wants to ban encrypted apps like iMessage and Whatsapp
  https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/01/14/david-cameron-wants-to-ban-encrypted-apps-like-imessage-and-whatsapp
Russia (and Bangladesh, Vietnam, Iceland....) on blocking crypto-related websites:
  http://cointelegraph.com/news/113857/russias-bitcoin-ban-expected-in-august-expert-recommends-businesses-get-out
NameCoin slips further, down to #15 on CMC today:
  http://coinmarketcap.com
 
Our wallets (wallet.bitshares.org, moonstone, bitsharesblocks, metaexchange, etc) are at stake now, not just the web itself.
Let's save ourselves first, then begin work on integrations with icann/iana/ietf, etc.
 
My ideas:
1. Make a chrome browser extension (for now) that uses the proven BitShares Login (see below).
2. If the extension sees an address/url of "bts:web.kencode" it will check the routable location to that "child" (website).
2b. You could even have the website owner maintain their own json file w/routing keys/vals, ie: http://kencode.de/id/kenCode.json
3. If the extension sees "bts:kencode/approve" it will load up the local client, or the web wallet as a backup for votes.
4. If the extension sees "bts:web.kencode/approve" you could vote for a website's popularity, great for search algos.
5. If the extension sees "bts:chat.kencode" it would load up the user's chosen voip Dapp (like icq, firechat, tweets, skype).
6. If the extension sees "bts:mail.kencode/subject?'Here's my subject line'" it would load up the user's chosen email client.
 
Once the extension has these basic abilities, then we could connect it to volunteer bridging nodes to ip4/ip6 tables. I will happily host the first few myself by purchasing a dedicated ip from my isp. I'll host my kencode website on a beaglebone black, or one of my raspi's. This way, you guys can verify routing and mapping to the "web" child account as seen in #2 and #4 above.
 
Here's a list of people that I have seen in discussions regarding BitShares DNS, may be qualified:
A. @indolering
B. @toast
C. @gamey (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12119.0;all)
D. @testz (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12540.0;all)
E. @bytemaster (http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2014/12/22/BitShares-Login/)
F. Am I missing anyone??
 
If this Poll is successful, I see no reason why we can't get the first extension up and running ASAP. The technology already exists.
 
Think of how newsworthy this will be when released with 1.0.
First Moonstone, then BitShares DNS!
(the Darknet subreddit has become VERY active the last 6 months, and for good reason!)


The Browser is the best idea ever.  I have been telling everyone this is what we need more than anything else...but I have absolutely no clue where to start. 

I personally think Toast should be working on a separate DNS chain, and then working with BitShares on the side to add the same capability to BitShares.  There would be no incentive for him not to and every incentive for him to do it. 

Of course, then again I think the 1.0 client should probably be released first and foremost.

As for Moonstone.  I'm pretty certain it is a winner out of the box.  Everything they do is so professionally done that it is really hard to believe their product won't be similarly fabulous.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 06:47:17 PM by fuzzy »
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Offline kenCode

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2015, 07:04:11 PM »
... the solution is a mater of vetting proposals and building consensus to implement the one chosen...

Right, so let's keep this thread laser-focused.
List your Top 5 (highly detailed) idea(s) for how decentralized DNS should work.
1. ken Code's idea
2.
3.
4.
5.
If everybody lists their (highly detailed) idea(s) here, then I will setup an additional Poll with the Top 5 ideas from the results in this thread.
Then, the winning choice from the additional Poll will determine WHICH route we should go with DNS, and this Poll (above) determines WHEN.
 
So, EVERYONE, please name up to 5 highly detailed ideas on how you would like to see decentralized DNS work...

Offline robrigo

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2015, 02:48:27 PM »
IMO the DNS stuff should be done properly, and that takes time. If we rush out a half-baked solution we'll regret it later.

But you are right insofar as there doesn't seem to be any development on that front, and we should get this moving. What has become of Indolering's excellent proposal?

Talked to devs about this, and you are pretty much spot on. I think the intent is lay down some foundational work to leverage such as turing complete scripting to build DNS functionality correctly. Thom's point is also correct; figuring out a methodology that will be attractive- i.e. predictable, is the key to DNS. The auction system doesn't fulfill this as he pointed out.

At any rate I asked @indolering to comment on this thread to give us an update about launching his delegates.

Offline kenCode

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2015, 03:02:01 PM »
IMO the DNS stuff should be done properly, and that takes time. If we rush out a half-baked solution we'll regret it later.
But you are right insofar as there doesn't seem to be any development on that front, and we should get this moving. What has become of Indolering's excellent proposal?
Talked to devs about this, and you are pretty much spot on. I think the intent is lay down some foundational work to leverage such as turing complete scripting to build DNS functionality correctly. Thom's point is also correct; figuring out a methodology that will be attractive- i.e. predictable, is the key to DNS. The auction system doesn't fulfill this as he pointed out.
At any rate I asked @indolering to comment on this thread to give us an update about launching his delegates.

Thank you guys, MUCH appreciated for your attention to this. Please keep this thread updated, thank you :)

Offline crypto4ever

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Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 06:31:30 AM »
v0.1 beta of the DNS can be something as simple as a taskbar widget that someone clicks, enters in a URL, it does a p2p query for the latest IP address for that site, and then displays an HTML link that the user clicks.

This way, you don't have to have any browser extensions.

You don't have to bind yourself to the dns resolver or network interface

This allows site names to map to ever changing IP addresses, from a p2p database.  It's a very "lite" client, that doesn't need a huge download.

Microsoft never shipped with utorrent or ICQ, but look how popular those were.  A little taskbar widget for Windows could really work.

v1 could be a browser plugin

v2 could be something that binds to the network interface almost like hotspot shield does..

By the way, if you expect the client to have to process regular BTS blocks, with all the other non-DNS traffic, I highly recommend against that.  You need this to be as lean and mean as possible, as a separate dedicated sidechain.

If you're worried about getting BTS to gain benefit from this, all you have to do is make registering names happen via BTS only.

But clients need to do minimal processing in order to resolve a name.  Right now, you type in a name and in milliseconds you get your answer from the root servers with only a  less than 1 kb of traffic in either direction.

That's going to be the hard part.  Designing a dedicated blockchain that hardly ever hard forks that is simple and quick, and stores very little resources on the client so it can work on phones and other small devices.


« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 06:40:30 AM by crypto4ever »

Offline fuzzy

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 06:39:49 AM »
IMO the DNS stuff should be done properly, and that takes time. If we rush out a half-baked solution we'll regret it later.

But you are right insofar as there doesn't seem to be any development on that front, and we should get this moving. What has become of Indolering's excellent proposal?

I'm working to get him and a couple of his friends from namecoin to join us in a Mumble hangout soon.  That is going on behind the scenes.  They seemed interested, so we it is more likely than not it will happen.  :)
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Offline kenCode

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 06:55:03 AM »
v0.1 beta of the DNS can be something as simple as a taskbar widget that someone clicks, enters in a URL, it does a p2p query for the latest IP address for that site, and then displays an HTML link that the user clicks.
This way, you don't have to have any browser extensions.
You don't have to bind yourself to the dns resolver or network interface
This allows site names to map to ever changing IP addresses, from a p2p database.  It's a very "lite" client, that doesn't need a huge download.
Microsoft never shipped with utorrent or ICQ, but look how popular those were.  A little taskbar widget for Windows could really work.
v1 could be a browser plugin
v2 could be something that binds to the network interface almost like hotspot shield does..
By the way, if you expect the client to have to process regular BTS blocks, with all the other non-DNS traffic, I highly recommend against that.  You need this to be as lean and mean as possible, as a separate dedicated sidechain.
If you're worried about getting BTS to gain benefit from this, all you have to do is make registering names happen via BTS only.
But clients need to do minimal processing in order to resolve a name.  Right now, you type in a name and in milliseconds you get your answer from the root servers with only a  less than 1 kb of traffic in either direction.
That's going to be the hard part.  Designing a dedicated blockchain that hardly ever hard forks that is simple and quick, and stores very little resources on the client so it can work on phones and other small devices.

I love your idea!
 
A DNS database is just that. It's a lookup service, just like utorrent as you mentioned. So, if we go with .p2p, .dac, whatever, we just need to distribute that file to nodes that would like to host it, right?
 
It's essentially becoming its own blockchain, which at a later date could be chained into the BitShares blockchain or any other dapp that wants to make use of it.
 
As you mentioned above, registration would happen the BTS way. TITAN is a great example of this, only one person can have a specific user/account name.
Since I have already registered username kencode then I guess this means that kencode.p2p is mine already. I had to pay some BTS to get it, not much, but it was something.
 
Squatting: This is the tough one. Make the domain more expensive? Require votes from the community via your "delegate business plan" for use of that domain? This leads back to my idea at the top for this. The delegate name is the "web" hostname in a sense. A 0% payrate, but must be voted on nonetheless. Keybase.io has an interesting "proof of use" model for this too. The more links to other social/web accounts you own, the better.
 
The lite client you mention is awesome, we could start out with that, no gui really, just a tiny popup, like icq.
I'd be willing to run a full node of course to assist resolutions.
 
So, now we just need a coder to make the little icq-style popup app, and we need to clarify the squatter issue..............

Offline kenCode

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 06:57:38 AM »
I'm working to get him and a couple of his friends from namecoin to join us in a Mumble hangout soon.  That is going on behind the scenes.  They seemed interested, so we it is more likely than not it will happen.  :)

Please PM me the day/time/timezone so I can listen in, thank you so much fuzzy :)
See our comments above this post too regarding squatting and icq-style app..

Offline kenCode

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 07:58:49 AM »
But you are right insofar as there doesn't seem to be any development on that front, and we should get this moving. What has become of Indolering's excellent proposal?
At any rate I asked @indolering to comment on this thread to give us an update about launching his delegates.

Maybe @indolering (or whoever) could use a combined set of DPOS and Open Transactions (OT) for this? Bitsapphire mentioned OT may be used as well.
The UN could issue an order to shut down all crypto related websites or web wallets tomorrow. 
 
Can we (doodle?) schedule a mumble with the key players for this and get some kind of roadmap for ddns?

Offline Thom

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2015, 04:42:38 PM »
The UN could issue an order to shut down all crypto related websites or web wallets tomorrow. 

This is why I am so puzzled that DNS has been allowed to fall from our focus. This is not an impossible scenario by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't know why a sense of urgency isn't more prevalent.

Thanks again kenCode for resurrecting this in the consciousness of the community.

Thanks also to fuzzy for trying to make the hangout with indolering / NMC happen.

I read indolering's proposal, and it is obvious he is well studied on DNS & the institutions and politics involved with it. I would like to understand his perspective of trying to reshape those existing structures vs. inventing new, separate ones that obsolete the existing, in the same way as blockchain tech obsoletes existing financial infrastructures.

There are clearly challenges in making a pathway to bridge the old and new in DNS just as there are for crypto & fiat currency.

Perhaps I'm too much of an idealist. I get uneasy when proposed bridges feel to me as clinging to the old, or at least rely too much on the old, rather than blaze a new independent trail to reach the destination. I dislike methods that strengthen the old ways (or allow them to continue to live on) as justification for adoption of a proposed path to reach our destination, as a means to gain adoption of the new system, closer to the ideal which is free from coercion, manipulation and control by a centralized entity.

DNS is technically not that difficult of a problem to solve. The challenge primarily is political, practical and how to reach a consensus on the  approach to take, without compromising the goal of a solution that supports freedom.

Offline kenCode

Re: BTS: .P2P .DAC - Decentralized DNS using the BitShares blockchain!
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2015, 07:03:34 AM »
Another major media Writer wants to do a story with me about BitShares DNS (ddns?) now and how it's coming along.
I told him that I'd get back to him asap.
 
@Indolering
@Toast
@Stan
@ByteMaster
@___________?
 
Guys please contact me about the DNS roadmap ASAP.
I don't want to lose the media momentum I am building.
 
Thanx in advance,
  -ken
 
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