Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Why no one is shorting bitassets?  (Read 1812 times)

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1603
    • View Profile
Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« on: April 28, 2015, 08:00:04 PM »

I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks



Offline Riverhead

Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 08:15:36 PM »

Just waiting for my client to sync then I'll be shorting. Plan to buy more every couple of days and short until the price starts to recover. In for a penny in for a pound :).
BTC/MUSE Bridge! Buy REAL MUSE!  https://metaexchange.info/markets/MUSE/BTC

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1603
    • View Profile
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 08:52:10 PM »
As long as I haven't missunderstood something and something really bad happens with the new implementation causing me to lose my BTS because I am shorting that's all I need to know...

Thanks Riverhead

Offline bitmarley

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 09:07:31 PM »
Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short. 

Offline bytemaster

Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 09:18:57 PM »
Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.
Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline maqifrnswa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
    • View Profile
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2015, 09:32:55 PM »
Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

there's a nugget of gold hidden in this thread!
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline Pheonike

Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2015, 10:24:57 PM »

It will be great when the sysnthetic markets are availaible. Then you you will have multiple asset pairs giving markets price signals which should make it harder for any single peg to fail.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 11:15:29 PM »
Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

there's a nugget of gold hidden in this thread!

oh shit...that is potentially huge...
BROWNIE==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits Welcome to  the Sharing Economy w/ BeyondBitcoin.org Partners--ShareBits.io & OpenLedger.info
TIP FORMAT: #sharebits "ForumHandleInQuotes" Quanity Token_Name

Ggozzo

  • Guest
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 11:22:47 PM »
I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Offline starspirit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 948
  • Financial markets pro over 20 years
    • View Profile
  • BTS: starspirit
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 12:10:21 AM »
Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.
Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I would like to see only the stable currencies backed by BTS (or BTC), and see all other trading assets collateralised by the currencies for the reasons stated, as they would be in traditional exchange and margin lending operations. I also think this calls for a different asset structure for each class - while currencies need to be fungible, trading positions do not, providing a lot more flexibility in their design.

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.
What market rule has caused your hardship? It would be useful to know if that is being ameliorated going forward.


Offline alt

Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 12:17:15 AM »
I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.
I think protect expired order at feed price will resolve the problem right?this will happen at 5.5 when v0.9 hard fork
do you think that will work?
wallet_account_set_approval  delegate.baozi 1
personal asset:  PAYALT(hourly pay for alt)

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3488
    • View Profile
  • BTS: Ander
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 12:28:09 AM »

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.

https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

zerosum

  • Guest
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2015, 12:56:01 AM »

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.



Because the market rules suck for shorts.

 I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...


Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11905
    • View Profile
    • BitShares.Europe
  • BTS: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2015, 06:49:52 AM »
I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...
I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too  :-\

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best :) coding some python and doing support for free  ;D
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu

Offline inarizushi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
Re: Why no one is shorting bitassets?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2015, 07:19:45 AM »

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.

Yeah, we all should have bought BitUSD instead of shorting them, how silly are we. Wait...

It's not that difficult to understand that you increase your exposition to BTS, you don't need to be a professional trader to understand that.
But here is what do sucks :
- you cannot cover with the collateral
- when you partially cover, you don't get the covered collateral. Obviously you should make numerous little short orders, but that's only obvious afterwards.
- the 10% rule after 30 days. Combined with the fact that nobody wants to short new bitAssets, this creates a sell pressure at 9.99% above the feed price when cove time happens

Today, supporting BTS means shorting some bitAssets so that people like me, who believed in all the vision and bull threads and kept shorting, could exit their short positions and get some rest, forget about al that shit, hodl those BTS and come back in a month with a smile without having to watch coinmarketcap.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

 

Google+