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Offline bigcat

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Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« on: April 30, 2015, 01:57:45 AM »

If one has 50% shares, he can make himself all 101 delegates whatever others do. Currently one only needs 25% to achieve this because nobody gets more than 25% votes. Actually the percentage needed to monopoly is much less. Considering that the current 101th delegate has about 8% votes, it is hard not to suspect that all the current 101 delegates could be actually controlled by 1 who occupies more than 8% bitshares or very few people combining together. This is definitely not decentralization.

Why not make 1 share voted to only 1 delegate? Was there any discussion about this before? If it is difficult to implement or use, a simpler version can be to share the vote. Say 1 share is voted to n delegates, each should get 1/n votes instead of 1. I feel this would be more fair and to the point of decentralization. A whale can probably control a few delegates but that's fine. Permitting a whale to control all or majority of delegates is not the correct idea. There must be improvements.




Offline Stan

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2015, 02:46:53 AM »
If one has 50% shares, he can make himself all 101 delegates whatever others do. Currently one only needs 25% to achieve this because nobody gets more than 25% votes. Actually the percentage needed to monopoly is much less. Considering that the current 101th delegate has about 8% votes, it is hard not to suspect that all the current 101 delegates could be actually controlled by 1 who occupies more than 8% bitshares or very few people combining together. This is definitely not decentralization.

Why not make 1 share voted to only 1 delegate? Was there any discussion about this before? If it is difficult to implement or use, a simpler version can be to share the vote. Say 1 share is voted to n delegates, each should get 1/n votes instead of 1. I feel this would be more fair and to the point of decentralization. A whale can probably control a few delegates but that's fine. Permitting a whale to control all or majority of delegates is not the correct idea. There must be improvements.

Think of each delegate candidate as a separate election.  Every share gets an up/down vote on whether each candidate is acceptable to its owner.  After all the voting is over, the candidates with the most approvals are given the job to sign blocks.  A whale may indicate her preferred slate, but a group of small fish with the same amount of stake can offset her with an alternate slate and all the other owners get to select from that pool (or form their own voting blocks for another set).   

In the end, they wind up selecting the set that is acceptable to the most number of owners. 

And that is good enough because the only things a delegate can do are plainly visible to everyone.  As long as the delegate does the right thing, who cares who it is?  And the minute they do the wrong thing, everybody else can vote them out.

You could even go so far as to randomly pick delegates from a pool of least-disapproved candidates and get an acceptable result. 

So, even if you come up with an alternative method that is better in some way, it's not really worth arguing about.   As long as the system lets the shareholders fire bad actors, it is doing all it really needs to do.

Bitcoin owners can't fire bad block signers.  BitShares owners can.

-----------

The above discussion applies to the block signing function and choosing trusted price feed sources.  That leaves choosing people to perform full-time work.  Should each share be allowed to only pick one project to support.  Or should it have an up/down opinion on all proposed projects?  Then let the top N projects with the most share holder support get funded.

Should using my share to vote for my favorite project preclude me from having a say on all the other projects?  Of course not.  Let each owner use all her shares to indicate which project(s) are acceptable to her and which are not.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bigcat

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2015, 03:22:07 AM »
Isn't down vote unavailable since long time ago? Without down vote, to fire someone you have to vote everyone else up, not something that most people will do. Also, small fish never do the same thing at the same time. Even if they realize something needs to be done, some will do and some will wait. It either takes long time or is simply impossible to effectively fire someone with high votes.

And you didn't answer how to prevent a whale from controlling large number of delegates. Without a effective way of preventing this, it's useless to fire one single bad delegate, because we have to vote up others who are actually the same person.

Offline Ander

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2015, 03:27:39 AM »
If you could only vote for 1 delegate, the problem would be 100 times worse.  The best delegates would have like .1% of the total vote, because everyone would be sspreading their votes 100 ways.  Someoen with a bunch of stake could create their own paid delegates, vote them in, and get BTS for nothing.

In all elections where you are electing X people, each person gets X votes, thats how it works.  Look at real life political examples if you want.
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Offline bigcat

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2015, 03:57:12 AM »
In real life you know X people are different. Behind the monitor you never know that. X accounts could be only 1 real person behind them.

Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2015, 04:07:27 AM »
Isn't down vote unavailable since long time ago? Without down vote, to fire someone you have to vote everyone else up, not something that most people will do. Also, small fish never do the same thing at the same time. Even if they realize something needs to be done, some will do and some will wait. It either takes long time or is simply impossible to effectively fire someone with high votes.

And you didn't answer how to prevent a whale from controlling large number of delegates. Without a effective way of preventing this, it's useless to fire one single bad delegate, because we have to vote up others who are actually the same person.

If you explore the delegates on bitsharesblocks you can see that negative down voting is alive and kicking.

There is a clear effort being made by some select people to down vote 100% delegates indiscriminately. Their transactions show up consistently. My best guess is it's some anti-dilution folks.

In the client just click three times on the vote hand to go from approve to neutral to down

It currently takes over 200 million bts to be voted into the 101. If others down vote then a whale can't do anything to control.

It's the right AND responsibility of every citizen to own their stake.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2015, 04:14:10 AM »
In real life you know X people are different. Behind the monitor you never know that. X accounts could be only 1 real person behind them.

It is our responsibility to be vigilant in not voting for a bunch of delegates controlled by 1 person.
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Offline bigcat

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2015, 04:26:36 AM »
In real life you know X people are different. Behind the monitor you never know that. X accounts could be only 1 real person behind them.

It is our responsibility to be vigilant in not voting for a bunch of delegates controlled by 1 person.
If he is a whale, he can vote for himself and needs no help from small fish. He may also pretend to be many people, or simply remain silent. Our vigilance could go nowhere.

Offline bigcat

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2015, 04:30:16 AM »
Isn't down vote unavailable since long time ago? Without down vote, to fire someone you have to vote everyone else up, not something that most people will do. Also, small fish never do the same thing at the same time. Even if they realize something needs to be done, some will do and some will wait. It either takes long time or is simply impossible to effectively fire someone with high votes.

And you didn't answer how to prevent a whale from controlling large number of delegates. Without a effective way of preventing this, it's useless to fire one single bad delegate, because we have to vote up others who are actually the same person.

If you explore the delegates on bitsharesblocks you can see that negative down voting is alive and kicking.

There is a clear effort being made by some select people to down vote 100% delegates indiscriminately. Their transactions show up consistently. My best guess is it's some anti-dilution folks.

In the client just click three times on the vote hand to go from approve to neutral to down

It currently takes over 200 million bts to be voted into the 101. If others down vote then a whale can't do anything to control.

It's the right AND responsibility of every citizen to own their stake.

Look at this: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS/ApprovalVoting#Voting_in_General
Down vote simply revokes your previous votes, but doesn't have a negative effect. If you have never voted a delegate, you have nothing to revoke.

Offline Ander

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2015, 04:38:41 AM »
In approval voting you vote for X people.  Downvote means that person is not one of your X votes anymore.
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Offline bigcat

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Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2015, 04:54:50 AM »
In approval voting you vote for X people.  Downvote means that person is not one of your X votes anymore.
That's not an effective downvote. You cannot treat a bad delegate anything different from a normal one, who you neither appreciate nor depreciate.

Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2015, 05:34:47 AM »
In approval voting you vote for X people.  Downvote means that person is not one of your X votes anymore.

If this is the case.. Here is a 100% delegate that hasn't been promoted yet. Check out the activity:



There are other more seasoned delegates where you can see transactions in the millions going negative and it happens consistently. To me it looks like a down vote. If the downvote doesn't work.. then what is happening is transactions are being moved around to that effect perhaps.
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Offline svk

Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2015, 06:17:35 AM »
In approval voting you vote for X people.  Downvote means that person is not one of your X votes anymore.

If this is the case.. Here is a 100% delegate that hasn't been promoted yet. Check out the activity:



There are other more seasoned delegates where you can see transactions in the millions going negative and it happens consistently. To me it looks like a down vote. If the downvote doesn't work.. then what is happening is transactions are being moved around to that effect perhaps.
They're not actually down votes, they're former votes that are retracted. This happens for several reasons, the major one being simply a change of voting preference, but also on a transfer to another account and when locking up collateral for shorts.
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Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: Why 1 share can be voted to any number of delegates?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2015, 01:17:10 PM »
They're not actually down votes, they're former votes that are retracted. This happens for several reasons, the major one being simply a change of voting preference, but also on a transfer to another account and when locking up collateral for shorts.

"on a transfer to another account and when locking up collateral for shorts."

Ok.. this makes sense.. in this case from the pattern I have seen in a lot of 100% delegates is either, a bunch of people who are anti-diulsion have been organized or prompted to ensure removal of all their 100% delegate votes.. AND/OR.. this major downturn in BTS with everyone shorting has impacted the very folks who are most supporting.

Thanks for the clarification.. I only started to really look at what was going on in the voting space recently and have had a lot of questions about how SLATES work in terms of their impact. Xeroc has been an awesome help with that.

I agree with the OP initially wanting to come up with ways to make it work better..  +5% for started a conversation on a subject.

I disagree with the one vote idea though, for reasons already stated. The algo at present really is based on your BTS holdings.. I think if other factors were to be weighed in it could provide better precision to the value of a vote cast.

I haven't given it much thought, but there are plenty of other signals that could be taken into account. Perhaps even the activity of the delegates themselves causing an impact on their votes. Think of it like being voted into office, and not showing up for work. If after a certain amount of time or scheduled reportings are not filed, then votes cast have a % decline. Something to this effect might have dealt with the toast and methodx situation better.

In my scenario the BTS holder still retains their rights.. and the position of the person they voted for is either theirs to lose through loss of public confidence by loss of votes, or by a reporting system not being updated by the delegate to indicate they are not holding the responsibility of their position to community standards.

Yes, there's a delegate for that! (play on there is an app for that) and you already got a preview of who it is! delegate.dposhub-org

Delegate delegate.dposhub-org is working on creating a system that to this end would provide a framework of accountability and promotability for delegates to the BTS community and world media.  This could potentially go on to evolve into a signal as I mentioned without having core devs being taken away from all the other work being done.

More info on the proposal and it's current status can be found here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15832.0.html

But it needs your VOTE! Thankfully, you got more than one to do it! ;)
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